Christian Solorzano [00:05]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club dedicated to bringing you conversations with Chicago's creative leaders. On this podcast, we'll explore the craft, theory, and practice of graphic design, plus discuss bold ideas that push the boundaries of what's possible and ways in which we can create a more thoughtful and inclusive community. To learn more about us, visit our website at www.chicagographicdesign.club or find us on social media. Special thanks to the Chicago band 80 Slang for our theme music.

Brooke Kravitz [00:44]

Thank you.

Christian Solorzano [00:56]

Hello, I am your host for today's episode, Christian Solorzano, and I'm going to be speaking with Brooke Kravitz, a Chicago-based graphic designer and artist. Originally from Indiana, Brooke moved to Chicago in 2012 to attend DePaul University's School of Computing and Digital Media, where she got a BFA in graphic design in 2016. Brooke's work is at the intersection of design and business.

Previous to her current role, she was a design consultant at one of the largest consulting firms in the world, and today she builds digital experiences for consumers at a software engineering company. Among Brooke's interests are social justice, cooking, her cats, video games, and illustration. I'm lucky to call Brooke one of my really good friends, and I'm confident to say that she's one of the most thoughtful, and creative people I know. So welcome, Brooke. Thank you for joining this episode. I'm very pleased to have you here.

And before we get started, I have a series of questions that I want to cover. I'm very curious to learn a little bit about your upbringing. I understand that you spent a long time in the Girl Scouts in Indiana, and I'm interested to see how that evolved to what you do now, a designer, and whether, Girl Scout led to design or whether they were both happening in parallel. Could you tell me a little bit about that?

Brooke Kravitz [02:27]

Yes. Hello. Excited to be here. Yeah, so I was in Girl Scouts for a long time. I was in Troop 82 in Indiana for 12 years. So from age 6 to 18. And I'm not sure if, being in Girl Scouts necessarily led to or correlated to getting into design, but it definitely made an impact on me as far as my interest in volunteer work and doing work within whatever community I'm a part of.

And I feel like it really taught me the importance of community and being part of something bigger than yourself. And taught me that I was important and mattered and like had— I was involved in the community. So I think as adults, it's maybe easy to see like your community, your neighborhood as like something separate from you or like something abstract, like something that other people are a part of or that other people do.

But we're all a part of our community, and we can make an impact in whatever way we choose to go about doing that. I also had, even from when I was really young, like 6 or 7, in Girl Scouts, you're taught to have a lot of say in what activities you do.

So what volunteer events you put on and you do and I think having a lot of like that control and that input with people around me helped me sort of start to discover my voice and like what I was interested in. And yeah, I just feel like thinking about who my work is touching and like who I am speaking to and working with. That was definitely an early lesson that I was exposed to in Girl Scouts.

Christian Solorzano [04:30]

Interesting. And I know in conversations that you and I have had in the past, you've always mentioned that since you were a kid, you've always had an interest in creativity and arts. And I remember you mentioning that you've always been, you've always been drawing, you've always been doodling. So at what point— because I actually, I did some research and prior to you considering coming to Chicago, you were considering a career in illustration or animation. Is that correct? Okay.

Brooke Kravitz [05:00]

That is. I thought I wanted to be an artist or an illustrator. That was just always, again, from when I was really young, 5, 6, like I was naturally really drawn to the arts and I just thought that was what I was going to do with my life.

Christian Solorzano [05:13]

Okay. And then so you didn't do illustration and you didn't do animation. You chose graphic— you chose graphic design. And I also know that you the reason why you went to DePaul University, which is also where I went to school at, is actually because of your Girl Scout group. You did a field trip and someone wanted to tour DePaul. And that's— is that, is that correct?

Brooke Kravitz [05:39]

You know what's funny is like, I forgot that and I don't know how you found that, but that's good. You did your, you did your work, your research. But yeah, that is true. In our senior year of high school, my last year, Girl Scouts, we were touring different colleges and I didn't know about DePaul. It's in Chicago for those who aren't from here that are listening, but I had never heard of it.

And I really sort of fell in love with the campus and the university's emphasis on volunteer work. That's a huge part of the culture at DePaul is like stewardship and being active in the community. And we have a couple of like longer breaks than other like universities and colleges typically have, and they're meant to be like a time to volunteer and give back to your community. I can't say that I necessarily always did that as a college student, but that was the intention.

And I just thought it really aligned with my values and also got a pretty good scholarship, so that kind of sealed the deal. Nice.

Christian Solorzano [06:51]

And why graphic design? Why not stick to illustration or animation?

Brooke Kravitz [06:55]

Yeah, well, DePaul is a liberal arts school. It's not necessarily like an art school. So while I was taking some art classes, I didn't know if majoring in art or illustration at DePaul was maybe the best choice for me. I went in undeclared and I didn't really know what I wanted to study. I knew animation and illustration were interests of mine, but it just didn't— it didn't feel quite right, like majoring in them. And I don't really know why.

But as part of those more elective art classes I was taking, I just kind of stumbled into an intro to graphic design class. My freshman year of college. And just like I said, how I instantly like fell in love with DePaul, I just instantly fell in love with graphic design. It was something I didn't know anything about.

Talking to other designers, in Chicago and beyond, I think a lot of us have similar experiences where we had heard of graphic design or were at least interested in the arts. From a young age, but I didn't even know what graphic design meant before college. But I really enjoyed how it was this kind of like marriage between creativity, which we'll get into later, but like artistry and craft and also critical thinking and communication.

I really liked how it was sort of a combination of those 2 different ways of thinking. And I liked— because prior to college, like my creative endeavors were really about expression, self-expression. But I liked that graphic design has like an intent behind it and there's usually some kind of message that is being communicated. And I really like that.

Christian Solorzano [09:02]

And so it's almost— it's all— I mean, I think it's 10 years since— well, it is 10 years since 2012. So I'm guessing 10 years ago on this date, you were probably about ready to start school, correct? Because you started in the fall, I'm assuming.

So it's been 10 years since you were a young student about to embark in a career. So looking back, to, 10— you yourself 10 years ago to today, what would you say are some of the— just the— how has your outlook changed on design? I know 10 years is a long time, and I feel like a lot changes in one year, so I can't even imagine what that times 10 is. So I'm very curious to just hear about how your outlook has changed.

If we think about the trajectory of your education, you're starting and then you're graduating and then it's now today, present day. Like what, how, what has that been like? Very curious to hear about what you were, what was going through your head when you were beginning this 10 years ago?

Brooke Kravitz [10:20]

Well, I mean, that's a really, it's a really good question. It's a really big question. I think when I was 18— oh my gosh, I thought that by age 28, 29, 30, I would like be a designer. Like I would have everything figured out. Like I would figure out how to do design.

And I mean, I don't fault myself for thinking that because that's kind of like the messaging that we receive when we're students is like, you are in school right now to learn how to do X, Y, Z, and then at one point you will learn it.

But I don't feel like that. I feel like I'm still learning every single day, all the time. And I don't think like— there are still a lot of days where I don't feel like I've learned design or I've learned how to be a designer. I have to relearn it all the time. So I think 10 years ago I had a lot more of like a fixed mindset that I would like arrive at something or have things more figured out. And I feel kind of the opposite.

The older I get, the less that I feel like I know, or the less fixed I am in my thinking, which I'm appreciative of. I like feeling like things aren't just final and they end. There's just always more out there.

Christian Solorzano [11:39]

Yeah, that reminds me of— I saw a TikTok and it was, I believe it was a woman and she was at the dentist's office. And the door was open and she was looking out the door and she noticed that like the medical staff was on YouTube and they were watching a tutorial on how to perform the surgery that they were about to give her.

Brooke Kravitz [12:00]

That is amazing. I hear that a lot about different jobs is like, it's not always about how good you are at your job. It's about how good you are at Googling.

I mean, I've seen like our own professions evolve in the last 10 years. Like what we were taught in school, really static print communication has evolved certainly in the last 10 years. And it's impossible to always stay on top of everything and know how to do everything. But what I appreciate about school is like it teaches you how to ask questions and be inquisitive and like research. And that's such an important part of our job.

Christian Solorzano [12:38]

So you're in school for 4 years and then you graduate in 2016. What shift or what happened during those 4 years and how does that— how is the evolution there?

Brooke Kravitz [12:53]

Like what happened after?

Christian Solorzano [12:56]

Yeah, like did your perspective change? Like did you still feel like, when you're 28 you're gonna—

Brooke Kravitz [13:02]

You just got a few more years until you have it all figured out or I look back at that time in my life, I guess when I was, what, 23, 24, a baby designer. I thought I had to listen and watch and observe what other designers were doing, especially bigger names at the time. And I had to do what they were doing to be, quote unquote, successful and be, quote unquote, a good designer.

And I think design itself and creative fields in general are very much so, steeped in this culture of comparison. You're always comparing what are other people doing? Okay, I have to do that too. And if I'm not, and if that isn't what I enjoy or isn't my natural tendency, there's something wrong with me and I need to change myself to do what they're doing. And I was very much like enveloped in that way of thinking when I was 23, 24.

I was taking classes on my own, online classes to learn more web development skills, learn SVG animation, learn different types of illustration styles, like learn UI design, which we weren't really taught so much in school. But I thought I had to like do all these things that all these other people were doing and not find sort of my own path.

And I think that's changed a lot in the last couple of years for me is like I've learned how to appreciate and, still observe what people are doing, but not necessarily internalize it and think that I have to do those things too to be successful and happy.

Christian Solorzano [14:49]

Yeah, I definitely see that. I mean, maybe it's because we're both getting older, but I— and maybe I see it less now. But I still see it.

And I do agree with you. I think there's sort of like this invisible standard that designers are encouraged to meet. And it's usually a standard that's determined by a very select few people. And I felt that too when I graduated. But yeah, it's interesting just how that, how sort of that, Mind shift evolves over time. So it's been— so since 2016, it's been what, 6 years since you graduated? So you've been, you've been out in the industry for 6 years now. What has that been like?

And again, what are some of the— So what are some, what are some additional shifts that have happened?

Brooke Kravitz [15:53]

We're doing a lot of mental math today, which is funny. I think— I mean, this is something I've been thinking about a lot the past 2 or 3 years specifically, as work for me and other people has changed a lot during the pandemic, is my relationship with work. I think that's changed the most.

Thinking about the past 6 years and going back to what I said about like a culture of comparison, I, in my first job out of college, well, my first few jobs out of college, actually, I felt like I had to show up to work as a different person or like a different version of myself that was more acceptable to the people around me.

And I guess just to be like more specific, there was one time at a previous job that I was at where we finished like a really particularly difficult client conversation. It was just very tense and there was a lot of like miscommunication and misunderstanding. And after we got off the call, I was a little bit upset and I had to go excuse myself to go cry in the bathroom.

And when I came back into that room, someone took me and she said, as women, we have to really watch our emotions at work because it can be seen as unprofessional. And that just upset me so much that I felt like there was something, again, wrong with me for being emotional. And I couldn't— be myself in certain situations because I would be considered unprofessional or like unfit to do my job if I expressed an emotion.

And the more I've like, thought about that experience and others like it, the more I've realized like the problem wasn't with me. I think the culture that we live in, we're so afraid of emotions and especially like as designers, we claim to be human-centered and really thoughtful about humanity, but we're so afraid of these real human moments of feeling things. And I don't know, I feel like it's a double standard because at work there are definitely emotions that are acceptable and seen as professional.

Being assertive, commanding a room, being Confident. Those emotions are fine, but anything that's not that, isn't. So all that to say, I think I've just had to learn over time that, just because somebody has a different way of processing their thoughts and their feelings and their experiences at work, and if I don't do that in the exact same way, that doesn't mean there's something wrong with me. It's just we're just different.

Christian Solorzano [19:02]

Yeah, and that's something that I've— I think ever since I've known you, I've always admired about you is the fact that you're so, I think, unapologetic about your emotions and like how you feel. And I, and I feel like time and time again, I hear— I think as humans, we all go through those emotions. And I, and I've seen, really professional, successful people in meetings shake their leg uncontrollably under the chair or bite their nails or excuse themselves and then come back wiping their eyes.

So I think, I mean, I just, I really enjoy that you're always sort of encouraging these type of conversations and that you're, in my opinion, you're a role model because I've seen, I've had the pleasure of working with you for some years and that's always just been something that I've seen and that I've heard other people say about you is that you're just, you always create those spaces for people to be. So, yeah, just wanted to get that out there.

Brooke Kravitz [20:10]

Thank you. I just think it's so funny that these things that we feel so much insecurity and like shame about in concern in, when it comes to ourselves, like other people might see those things and think of them as one of our strengths and like really admire that about us. Because I mean, it's still something I struggle with is like, what if I'm not? What if I'm being too emotional? What if I'm not being emotional enough? What if this is off-putting to somebody?

What if this isn't acceptable, at work? So I appreciate that.

But it goes back to like, who is deciding what is and what isn't professional? And me tearing up in a meeting or somebody, like you said, jiggling their leg under their desk, being nervous. Where are those standards of professionalism coming from? Who is deciding that? And what if we could be more open at work? What if it was okay to say, I'm nervous, I'm scared, I'm feeling insecure right now, and just talk about it rather than feeling like you have to go hide in shame? Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [21:19]

I mean, I think that I heard a quote the other day and it was, it went along the lines of, along the lines of, when you're stuck in traffic, you are the traffic.

And I think in this case, we set the— we're setting those standards every time we hide who we truly are. So I think it's just a matter of, and it sucks that we have to be the ones to do this and these spaces aren't already created for us. But I don't know, I feel like— and maybe I'm being a little too optimistic, but I feel like we're heading in a direction that I think is a little bit more embracing of people's full individuality.

Because I know I've been in meetings where, people are beginning to ask Hey, how are you feeling? Or people are opening up and being a little bit more vulnerable. So I think, I don't know, I feel good about the future is what I'm trying to say.

But I think it requires, sadly, it requires that we be the ones to be the ones that speak up and say, hey, you know what? I'm not feeling that creative today, or like I had a crappy weekend, or I don't want to go on camera or whatever it is. I think we need to be the people that do that.

And more often than not, there's other people that are in the room that probably are feeling the exact same thing, but they're just too afraid to admit it.

Brooke Kravitz [22:59]

Yes, I definitely agree with you. I think like us in the millennial kind of category. We're at a very interesting place in life where we're sort of like seeing all of this emotional dysregulation and dysfunction and maybe some generations that came before us. And we are trying to advocate for change a lot of the time in work, in the environment and government and whatever it is. So it is very— I feel hopeful about that too.

But it's hard sometimes in those moments when you are feeling like nobody else is speaking up in a meeting at work, whatever, and you're feeling like you want to, but you don't see it around you. But like you said, the only way for things to change is if we do sort of confront our own discomfort and Do it anyway. And what's the worst that could happen? Somebody has some opinion of you? That's—

Christian Solorzano [24:06]

Yeah. To me, to me, I find it more— I find it eerie, especially when lately in the United States there's been mass shootings and they affect people, like when you're reading the news and stuff. And I, and I still think it's it seemed as maybe unprofessional to say, to just be visibly upset.

And I find it strange when people seem so uninterrupted by what's happening on the news, and you're literally on your screen, you're watching what's happening, and then you're in a meeting and people are making jokes and talking about something that's completely, so tone deaf. So the way I see it I almost think it's like, that's the weird behavior. Like crying and being emotional, like to me that's normal. Like that's okay.

Like that's the— like to me that should be the standard is you, you're a human and whatever. To me it's strange when like professionalism becomes this mask that we wear and it's like closed off, right? Yeah. To me that's creepy and it's just— and I see it all the time. So it's just interesting how there's like 2 sides and typically we associate one side as being wrong when in reality that side is the natural side. That's like just—

Brooke Kravitz [25:41]

Right. You know what this reminds me a lot of is like the concept of like introverts and extroverts at work specifically. And how professional settings and even school, just different institutions that we're a part of, favor extroversion. And people who present as more outspoken and loud are seen as more professional and more smart. If you're talking, you—

Christian Solorzano [26:18]

You're smart.

Brooke Kravitz [26:20]

You're seen as more equipped and more adept than somebody who's more quiet and reserved. And it's like, we need both. We need people who thrive in solitude and are quiet and listen more. And we need people who are outspoken and loud and talk and are energetic that way.

But I don't know, it's very often seen as like, you have to be this specific sort of like mold to be successful. Yeah. And yeah, like you said, I think there is a lot more discussion nowadays and just more diverse voices included in the conversation about work and professionalism. So that's great. But, it's still definitely something I struggle with and I know a lot of other people do too.

Christian Solorzano [27:07]

So I have a question and there's something that we've talked about in the past about the word the C-word, creative, creativity. And we've had very long discussions around just what defines a creative person. And I think in our industry or in places of work, there's, you have your strategists, you have your technologists, your engineers, and then you have the creatives.

Brooke Kravitz [27:40]

And it's like we're like a zoo animal or something. Yes, the creative.

Christian Solorzano [27:46]

The creatives. And yeah, I just want to just explore or dive into what that word means to you and what comes up when you hear it in the workplace or just in general.

Brooke Kravitz [28:02]

I actually want to— okay, I'm like going off script a little bit. I want to Google creativity and see how Google defines creativity.

So it says the use of the imagination or original ideas, especially in the production of an artistic work. Yes, this is something we've talked a lot about, just us two. But I find it interesting that this definition is like about production, like creativity is a means of production. And original ideas. I think that's interesting too, because like, what is an original idea? But anyway, I think like my perspective on creativity has changed a lot over the years.

I think it can be potentially pretty damaging to label certain people or certain behaviors as creative and other people or other behaviors as not creative. I just see a lot of issues with that, putting certain people like on a pedestal that you can only arrive at if you meet certain conditions, when in reality, I think creativity is like our natural state of being as people. And it's like, it's just who we are from the time that we're born.

Where, I mean, if you think about like the way that this is something we talk a lot about too, but like kids, the way children like look at what's around them and come up with these like novel ideas with just like the mundane, like a piece of paper can become like an ocean or a parachute or something to draw on. And it's not this like special magical thing that only certain people have inside of them or can only be done in a certain way.

Like choosing your outfit that you're going to wear for the day is a creative choice that you're making. Like cooking is creative. Choosing— I don't know, choosing what you want to watch on TV, that's creative. It's like, it's just who we are naturally. And I feel like we have sort of like co-opted it as something to be commodified and make money from. You can come to us for your creative needs and yeah, I don't know.

Christian Solorzano [30:35]

Even the definition that you just read talks about the production. It's all about— it's almost like a for-profit definition.

Brooke Kravitz [30:42]

Definitely. Yeah. A lot of things in our society.

Christian Solorzano [30:45]

Yeah. So how does so how would you describe what you do today? Very curious, because I know you're a consultant, a design consultant, and I mentioned in the introduction that you're, at the intersection of both like design and business. And I think that's always very fascinating because I know when you and I were both in school, business, the business side of design isn't really something that's emphasized. And I know it's especially for creative people— just kidding.

Brooke Kravitz [31:22]

Oh, we are, we are creative people.

Christian Solorzano [31:25]

Yeah, but people with like artistic sensibilities and that are, maybe a little bit more just in tune with the natural world or whatever. What was it like to go from, being in college and you're being asked to design a poster and to experiment and to make up a packaging.

How does, how does that shift go from— like, what was that experience like going from designing something just for the sake of making it to, now there's money involved and you have to— you're measured against metrics and KPIs and all those wonderful acronyms that we love?

Brooke Kravitz [32:10]

Oh, love an acronym. As you were talking, I was trying to put myself back in my shoes previously. And I think this is still something that I kind of am struggling with and not really sure where I land, because sometimes I do feel like the work I do isn't creative. It's just not. It's very— and that's how I describe it sometimes to people when they ask, what do you do? And it's kind of hard to explain, what is an experience designer?

So I do sometimes, say it's not always very creative, but like it is. It's just a different type of creativity. I think it's creativity to take sometimes a solution that's already been designed. Like oftentimes the work that I am doing or the projects that I'm dealing with are pretty rigid. Like this is the set of requirements we have for something. This is ultimately like what needs to be created.

And I think the creativity comes in with asking questions and trying to uncover the nuance or the context or the why we're doing something and sort of working backwards. It's weird because like in college, I feel like it was the opposite where things were really open and like you could come up with, maybe there was a prompt, a really open-ended prompt that you could explore and diverge from.

But in the work I do today, it's like oftentimes trying to work backwards from, okay, this is where we need to get to, but maybe we don't need to take this path. Maybe we can try other things. And I— yeah, I do miss having that freedom. To fail and like experiment that you have in school without the worry that you're going to negatively impact a multimillion-dollar project.

But it's something that I feel like I need to explore outside of work because it doesn't— I don't know, I don't necessarily think that I have to always feel fulfilled with creation at work. The way that I used to think that I should be. I don't know if that answers your question.

Christian Solorzano [34:29]

No, that answers my question. And I guess for people that are listening that might not be familiar with the term experience design, how would you— because it's, I mean, I like to— I mean, this is a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. And to me, experience design kind of is included within Graphic design, but experience design is— it means something different because it's very specific to a particular type of work, right? So how do you describe experience design?

Because I'm also an experience designer and I always sort of struggle with defining it.

Brooke Kravitz [35:10]

Yeah, I'll answer your question in a second, but I like to occasionally ask my dad specifically what he thinks that I do as a job. And it sort of like humbles me and grounds me and helps me remember, because my dad is just, a regular blue-collar guy. He isn't in this like tech world the way that we are. And I think the last time I asked him that question, he said, you make a website easier to use for people. And I was like, Excellent. Great.

And that's always kind of like the core mission that I come back to is like, I don't know, maybe I wouldn't phrase it exactly that way, but to me, experience design is— it's so hard to like put this into a succinct sentence, but it's identifying challenges or struggles that a group of people has and making something with them that makes those struggles easier or like improves their lives in some way.

So that could mean, something like, if you think of the apps or the sites that, we as people use on a regular basis, your banking app, that might be a great one. You have this problem that you need to transfer money from one account to another. Okay, what are, what are some opportunities or ways that I as a designer can make that experience of transferring money, which can sometimes be really complicated and annoying and inefficient, feel easier and better and something that's less of a burden?

To me, that's what experience design is. Okay.

Christian Solorzano [37:07]

I like— I think I like your dad's definition.

Brooke Kravitz [37:09]

Yeah. I mean, I said what my dad said. Yeah, probably like 10 times the amount of time. No.

Christian Solorzano [37:17]

Yeah, no, I'm messing with you.

Brooke Kravitz [37:18]

I agree.

Christian Solorzano [37:19]

I always, I always struggle defining the same things. I'm like, what is it? And it's— and I feel like on every project that I'm on, it always means something slightly different. Sometimes it means you're designing what a presentation looks like, and that's the experience of a presentation. Other times you're literally designing a process of like transferring money in a bank for a bank? Yeah.

Brooke Kravitz [37:48]

And like a big part too is, something I think my favorite part of the design process is like taking a brand's Tone and identity and like feeling and translating that into an experience. It almost does feel like you're a translator, like you're taking one language and like breaking it down into pieces and translating it into something else. So it's not always as like task-based, like you said, it's sometimes, more subtle or more nuanced, like the experience of translating one identity application into something else.

Christian Solorzano [38:31]

So you've been doing this for about 10 years and a lot has changed in the last 10 years. Are there any— anything— is there anything that you're particularly looking forward to in regards to design and its present state? For instance, Something that you and I have talked about are things like NFTs or the metaverse or, those type of things. Yeah. Just what's your perspective on the way that design is, the direction in which design is trending in?

Brooke Kravitz [39:12]

Yeah, I'm naturally like a bit cynical and skeptical when it comes to stuff like this. These really trendy new technologies or applications in which these technologies are being used, I'm like never really that person who's like, oh yeah, this is amazing. I'm always like what are the ways that some nefarious world leader could use this in an unethical way?

So I guess, but like counter to that, I think there are a lot of really humble, smart people out there who have found ways to use what at the time seemed like a really scary piece of technology and use it for social good. Airbnb, I know that's an example of just regular people who are using Airbnb to provide housing assistance to Ukrainian refugees.

Refugees recently. So, there are ways that I'm sure NFTs, metaverse, virtual reality experiences can be used for good. But I feel like I'm less optimistic than the average person about, these things. I just— I'm hopeful that we can find a way to bring more humanity and empathy and, yeah, just, I don't know, sincerity into these like more future futuristic kind of experiences and ideas. But I don't, I don't know. I— it's not something I'm necessarily like super pumped about.

Christian Solorzano [41:05]

Yeah, I'm with you. And then so you so you have your job where you do experience design stuff, and I know you also regularly, you do, you engage in art that you create. And for anyone that's listening, I encourage you to check out Brooke's Instagram and you'll see the beautiful like photo montages that she does and the illustrations and whatnot.

So I'm just curious about whether there's any sort of dance that happens between your professional work and this personal work that you're creating, whether it's an illustration or even some of the photographs that you take of your cats, which in my opinion are very artistic and they're not just your ordinary photos of a cat. So yeah, how does that is there any relationship there and does one influence the other or—

Brooke Kravitz [42:08]

Yeah, great question. Well, first of all, I would say like I really struggled with the idea of like making art the past 2 or 3 years. It hasn't always— I don't know, I feel like it's really like tempting and this seductive idea that art is always this pure place I can go to when I'm struggling and it's always there for me. But sometimes I just don't want to make anything.

And that's something that I've been trying to feel more comfortable with is not always feeling inspired to create and that being okay.

And dedicating my energy to other things in my life. But I will say, in periods of my life where I do feel a little bit more inspired to create, I feel like it's usually sort of like an inverse of whatever is going on at work. Or when I'm spending 8 hours a day doing one type of work, I often feel compelled to do something that's like the total opposite, just to—

I get very like bored with repetition and doing a lot of sameness. So if I'm spending a lot of time at work, working on a branding or illustration or identity project, I don't want to spend my time outside of work doing that. So I'll get more involved with, like you said, photography or cooking or just something that's a different type of expression.

And the work, I guess, that I've been doing outside of work recently, I've sort of started like taking these pictures of myself and like manipulating them in Photoshop. Because I haven't really been doing a lot of more graphic design related work at work. It's been a lot of like product design.

So I felt like I wanted to tap more into my emotions outside of work and like really listen to what I was feeling. And a lot of times it has been a little bit more melancholy and bittersweet sort of feelings. And for a while I felt like that was bad and I should just wait until I didn't feel that anymore to create.

But when you think about like other types of art, like sad songs or like melancholy music or melancholy movies, like those are amazing and they feel really good to like listen to and watch. And I feel like there's a lot of beauty and potential in like feelings that aren't always positive and like Happy.

Christian Solorzano [44:46]

Yeah, that's gonna be— that's gonna be a quote.

Brooke Kravitz [44:50]

Which part?

Christian Solorzano [44:52]

All of it.

Brooke Kravitz [44:54]

Okay, that's a long quote.

Christian Solorzano [44:55]

Yeah, because I— because I see that you don't— you don't post regularly. And I would associate with you, it's always the quality over the quantity. And I always feel like when you post something, it's like an artist dropping like a mixtape. It's like, it's holy crap, Brooke posted something and it hasn't been like— it's been like a month since her last post. So I always really appreciate that.

And I don't know if you feel the same way, but I, as a spectator, someone that's looking from the outside, I always just appreciate how you're always exploring like different mediums. In this case, you're doing photography with yourself and you've done some paper cutouts and you've created some imagery out of that. You've done photography.

So you're always— I see it like you're always experimenting with different things, even if it's not, on a regular basis and you're not posting, 10 stories a day you know shoving things down people's throat. So. I really like your work and I like the way that you— yeah, I like your perspective on it.

Brooke Kravitz [46:11]

Thank you. And I want to go back to what you just said about quality versus quantity. I think like it's taken me a really long time to realize this, but like quantity is what leads to quality, I think. And for a period in my life, I felt like I was only creating art to share it. But I've taken a different approach recently where you should see my phone and like my Photoshop recent files. It's just a mess.

It's like so much stuff that's like really ugly and really bad and really messy. And I have no intention of sharing, but I feel like that just like quantity of just rapid, like quick, messy shit.

Is the only way that I get to something that I feel like I do want to share and I am proud of. And I want to have a new Brooke post drop. But yeah, it just— it's like a very different way of thinking and working than how I felt a few years ago. Okay.

Christian Solorzano [47:19]

And I'm always interested in people's source of inspiration. So I'm very curious to know where you go for inspiration, whether it's inspiration for a portal that you're designing for work, or whether it's inspiration for a collage or a photo. What are your— what are those fountains of inspiration for you?

Brooke Kravitz [47:46]

This is also something I feel like me and you have talked about in the past is like just the idea of sourcing inspiration. And I think it's definitely important. It's important to observe, what's out there and what works and what doesn't. And I don't know, I kind of think of it as like one of my little like side things is like archiving stuff.

Like I'll take a million like screenshots of just things I see, or I'll take a picture of something that I see that looks exciting and sort of like archive it for myself. But I almost never end up like going back to that stuff. Like it just kind of sits somewhere in some folder. But yeah, I, I've tried to be more conscious of like using curated design sites as a source of inspiration.

And I don't think they're necessarily bad, but I think everybody's using them. Everybody is going to the same 5 sites for inspiration. And one of my favorite sayings in life is, if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten. So I feel like if everybody is referencing the same material, we're all just gonna have the same outputs.

So I try to seek inspiration from anything that isn't like a design inspiration site. Like nature, I think, is one of my biggest sources of inspiration because it just sort of helps take me out of my head and out of my routine and like see things in a new way. And something I've gotten really into recently is identifying plants and just being more aware of what's around me that I previously like took for granted or didn't take Notice of.

And I just feel like that process of like seeing and like teaching myself how to see has really helped me when it comes to like seeing a problem at work or like seeing an ask at work in a new way. So it's not like I'm just, looking at a piece of UI or a website to feel inspired. I'm sort of like retraining my brain.

And I think, as a caveat, when it comes to product design, UI/UX, like there are certain patterns that work for a reason and we should use them because they work for a reason. So it's not to say like never do what anybody else does, but yeah, I think like just being mindful of do I need to do exactly what this other person is doing or can I maybe find something, trying to find a new way?

Christian Solorzano [50:26]

And is there any inspiration that's specific to just Being in Chicago, I know you mentioned plants, you mentioned identifying flowers. How does that— is there anything else that someone listening that's from Chicago would immediately be like, I never thought about that?

Brooke Kravitz [50:45]

I think we have great museums in Chicago. I mean, I'm biased because I live here, but there are so many like small, just like indie museums. That I love going to when I feel not very inspired. Gallery F in Logan Square, it's a street art gallery, which I think is so cool. The idea of taking something that is traditionally lowbrow, like street art or graffiti, but putting it inside of a gallery and having it be this awe-inspiring thing, I think is super cool.

In Hyde Park, the Smart Museum of Art is amazing. There's a lot of art installations and sculptures and stuff there. It's great to look at different mediums of art to feel inspired. Yeah, and I think our neighborhoods here are really inspiring too. They're all really different and unique, and architecture is another thing that I love looking at. Just walking around and seeing how architectural styles have evolved with cultures. In Wicker Park specifically, there are a lot of really cool artists' bungalows.

And you can kind of see as you walk down the street how these houses that were built first, they progressively get more and more elaborate as you move down the street, because people would see what their neighbors were doing and then kind of add more decoration and ornamentation. And yeah, long answer, but yeah.

Christian Solorzano [52:21]

And I like that you said you're sort of— it's a training in seeing. And I think that it's just a lifelong practice, just how to see. And I think it's— yeah, it's so beautiful. So another question that I like to ask our guests are another question specific to Chicago, but given that we are the— we're an organization that's focused specifically in Chicago, what are some of the— like, what's your overall, perspective on the Chicago design community, if any?

And because one of our, one of our goals always is to see where we could fill some gaps. And we're always exploring ways to bring people together, ways to, break down the walls to be more inclusive and just provide people a sense of belonging. So you've been— and you've been here for 10 years now. So what— I don't know, just what are your thoughts on just the Chicago design community?

And are there any— anything in particular that you either like dislike or you like or you wish you could see more of?

Brooke Kravitz [53:38]

Yeah, I mean, I think we in general have a really strong design community in Chicago. We have a lot of forward thinkers and, genuine design leaders, which I think is really awesome. I love that you asked this question, by the way, and I listened to one of your past episodes with Chelsea, another designer, and I loved her answer about, I think we need more people to, show up and participate in the community.

But I also, I wanted to, talk about that more because I— my first sort of reaction to that was like, well, why aren't more people showing up? There must be some reason, and I doubt that it's just that people don't know or they don't have time.

Like I feel like there are probably some other reasons that people aren't showing up to things, and I think that something we might need more of or could do better at is like I don't always feel like I belong in the Chicago design community. Like I even though I'm a designer and I'm in Chicago, like it just doesn't feel like I am in. That community. And I could keep it— I could just talk about this forever.

But basically it's because I feel like there's still a really big push to push for this sort of hustle culture in Chicago, like always have a million things going on and have your own agency and have your own side hustle. And I don't do any of those things.

I don't have a side business and I feel like if I were to go to a lot of design events that are held in Chicago, I wouldn't necessarily have much to connect with the people, that are going to those with. And yeah, I guess I would like to see different types of events too, and different types of, I guess, initiatives catered to different types of people. That aren't just like happy hours. That's a lot of what I see is networking and happy hours. And that's great.

But what if there were more events where like people were just like quiet? Or, I don't know, weren't put on by the same couple of organizations all the time? So I think to answer your question, what we need more of, I think, is like asking more questions for why people aren't coming or why they don't feel like they should come or don't feel like they belong. Okay.

Christian Solorzano [56:28]

Yeah, I wrote that down.

Brooke Kravitz [56:30]

But I think, I mean, what your group is doing, what the Chicago Graphic Design Club is doing in this podcast is like, I think, just trying to highlight, different types of people and, not just the really loud hustle culture voices, and I'm hopeful that the work that you're doing will make more people feel like they do belong and they can be a part of a community. I certainly have felt that in the events that I've gone to. So shout out to the club.

Christian Solorzano [57:05]

Awesome. Cool. So I have some rapid-fire questions for you.

Brooke Kravitz [57:12]

Okay. All right.

Christian Solorzano [57:13]

Are you ready?

Brooke Kravitz [57:15]

Yep.

Christian Solorzano [57:15]

And they're not necessarily design related. So what is your favorite place in Chicago?

Brooke Kravitz [57:26]

The lakefront.

Christian Solorzano [57:27]

The lakefront. Why is that?

Brooke Kravitz [57:29]

It's beautiful. We have this like huge body of water in the middle of a major city. How awesome is that? Okay.

Christian Solorzano [57:36]

I agree with you. And if you weren't a designer, what would you be doing?

Brooke Kravitz [57:42]

I feel like I would, I would either be an art teacher or I would be just like living off the grid somewhere in like a log cabin. Okay. I like that. Mountain, a mountain woman.

Christian Solorzano [58:00]

Well, it's never too late to become a mountain woman.

Brooke Kravitz [58:05]

I know. I can do it.

Christian Solorzano [58:09]

I believe in you. And then this is a design-related question, but what's your biggest design client pet peeve?

Brooke Kravitz [58:18]

Ooh, that is a good question. How much do I want to say?

Christian Solorzano [58:26]

That's something that you and I always talk about throughout the day, throughout the week. We're always texting each other. Our annoyances. But if you could, identify one thing that just drives you nuts, what is it?

Brooke Kravitz [58:43]

I think, I think it's just like an immediate lack of trust really bothers me. And it's something I— if I identify that that's happening, like a client isn't trusting my point of view or my expertise, like I want to try to uncover why that is. Like maybe this is just a new process or a new concept to them and they're just skeptical.

But I feel like when it's repeated over time, just like a continual sort of dismissal of my expertise and this is what I do as a job. I just would— yeah, I wonder if like these people go to their doctor and they're just no, I don't think we should do that. I don't know. Yeah, that's my biggest pet peeve. It's like, come on, trust me. I want to do— I want to do what's right for you.

Christian Solorzano [59:34]

That's funny.

Brooke Kravitz [59:37]

What's yours? I want to know.

Christian Solorzano [59:40]

Oh man, I have so many. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I would say it's probably— I very, I very much dislike jargon. And I think jargon is the worst. And anytime I'm in a meeting or a situation where just a lot of buzzwords are being used, just by default, I just stopped paying attention. It just happens.

And I have to really force myself to keep up. And it just becomes very painful. So yeah, I just, I can't, I can't stand jargon. And I feel like in our industry, people love jargon because it sounds smart.

Brooke Kravitz [60:33]

Yes. And I think like it's a lack of authenticity that I know drives both of us crazy. It's like when people aren't just like being authentic, just trying to like posture their, I don't know, or like assert themselves over everybody else by using Crazy made-up words.

Christian Solorzano [60:52]

Yes, I've been in some situations where I've had to Google what people say because I literally do not understand that word. And then when I— even the definition confuses me.

Brooke Kravitz [61:06]

The definition has more jargon in it. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [61:12]

Okay. And then this one here, this question here is like, what are, if you could tell young Brooke something, some words of inspiration, affirmation, anything, what would you tell your younger self?

Brooke Kravitz [61:30]

That's a great question, too. I think, part of the reason I wanted to come on this podcast is because I wanted to sort of be like a more vulnerable example of somebody who is in the industry I wanted to be in, but isn't like toxically positive and quote unquote professional all the time.

So I guess I would say like, I felt like I really needed to hear more of those perspectives when I was in school and when I was younger, like hear that people are struggling and that's okay. And I guess I would say to my younger self, just because you're afraid, that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you like that. Your fear and vulnerability is a superpower. It's not like something to be ashamed of. And that's something you should share more, which I'm doing now.

Christian Solorzano [62:30]

Yes, it's happening right now.

Brooke Kravitz [62:33]

Yeah. But it's okay to be afraid, I guess. That's what I would say.

Christian Solorzano [62:39]

Yes, I agree 100%. Okay. And before we wrap up, what are you up to recently? What's going on in Brooke's world right now? And if people want to get in touch with you, whether it's to ask you some questions or just see your artwork or whatever, yeah, how could they get in touch with you? What are you up to? Yeah, what's the latest?

Brooke Kravitz [63:07]

Yeah, you can find me @BrookeKravitz on Instagram. My website is brookekravitz.com. I think there's like an email form out there if anyone wants to chat. I'm totally happy to do that. I don't have any like, major projects or anything going on right now. I'm just kind of, taking each day as it comes. So that's what's going on with me right now. Living in the moment. That's my current project.

Christian Solorzano [63:36]

Living in the moment. What are the key—

Brooke Kravitz [63:39]

Oh, I'm on LinkedIn too. If you search for Brooke Kravitz. Love a LinkedIn connection.

Christian Solorzano [63:43]

Yeah. And we'll put all these links in the description for this episode. So you just click on those. But anyways, thank you so much, Brooke. This was a wonderful conversation and I'm very glad that you Thank you. And that we got a chance to speak again.

Brooke Kravitz [64:05]

I'm glad we got to do this too. And I was very scared to do it, but I did it. And I also wanted to just say again, thank you so much to the Chicago Graphic Design Club for the work that you're doing. I really do mean this when I say I think it's really necessary. And meaningful work that y'all are doing, and I'm so glad I got to be a part of it. Thank you.

Christian Solorzano [64:31]

All right, awesome. All right, Brooke, well, we'll talk soon. Thank you everyone for listening.