Christian Solorzano [00:01]

Hello, you are listening to Underscore, a show by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I am your host, Christian Solorzano, and on today's episode, I am so happy to be sharing a conversation with someone very special, and that person is Cass Pokora. She is an artist, a photographer, and a designer, and she's also a familiar face here with the Chicago Graphic Design Club. She currently has some work on display at Typeforce, in Bridgeport, and that is an annual typography exhibition.

She also currently has some work on display at New Wave Coffee in Logan Square, and she's featured in the Chicago Graphic Design Club's upcoming issue of Faculty, the 3rd issue. And she also recently co-designed a poster for the Chicago Paper Show, which took place at the Chicago Cultural Center She's also someone that I'm currently collaborating with on a special project and overall someone that I've been having the honor of spending a lot of time with recently.

We recorded this conversation in the car between the Chicago Pottery Market and Wicker Park as we made our way to the Goodman Theatre for David Byrne's Theatre of the Mind. In this conversation, we talk about her process, Her shift back towards analog work, her childhood obsession with sharks, the imaginary city that she's built in her head, and why one day she'd love to design a corn maze.

As always, if you enjoy conversations like these, we appreciate your support when you leave us a rating wherever you listen. Thank you and enjoy the conversation. Welcome, Cass, to a very special episode of Underscore. We are both in the car and I've never done this before.

Cass Pokora [02:01]

Cool. Thanks for having me.

Christian Solorzano [02:03]

It is Saturday. It's 2:33 PM, Saturday the 30th. How are you doing today?

Cass Pokora [02:12]

I'm doing really good. Cool.

Christian Solorzano [02:16]

We just came back from a Ceramic Fair Festival in Wicker Park. And one of the things that I learned about you since getting to know you is that you have a background in pottery and making things with your hands.

Cass Pokora [02:36]

That's true.

Christian Solorzano [02:38]

And you did that when you were in college?

Cass Pokora [02:40]

Yeah, I unexpectedly kind of fell in love with it.

Christian Solorzano [02:45]

When you were a child, you've also shared with me that you were really into making things with your hands, and I feel like imagination was a big part of your childhood. You were into dinosaurs. And you were into sharks.

Cass Pokora [03:03]

Still am.

Christian Solorzano [03:04]

You still are. And you also shared with me that you had a very stylish sense of fashion that involved rollerblades. And big shorts, right?

Cass Pokora [03:19]

Yep.

Christian Solorzano [03:20]

And do the shorts have big pockets?

Cass Pokora [03:22]

No.

Christian Solorzano [03:24]

Do you, do you typically carry things in your pockets? I don't think I've ever seen you with stuff in your pockets.

Cass Pokora [03:29]

No, I have a purse.

Christian Solorzano [03:30]

And what are some of the things that you always carry with you? What are like your—

Cass Pokora [03:35]

Oh, I'll tell you.

Christian Solorzano [03:36]

Your Cass essentials.

Cass Pokora [03:40]

Since you've asked, it's really good. Sunglasses, money.

Christian Solorzano [03:45]

Do you carry bills or coins or what kind of—

Cass Pokora [03:49]

I actually do carry cash on me. I find that I still need it. Deodorant and packing tape.

Christian Solorzano [03:55]

Packing tape. Tell me about the packing tape, 'cause I, that's, you're the first person that I know that always has that on them.

Cass Pokora [04:01]

Yeah, I just always carry tape on me because I always need it. And there was only so many times that I could be like, wow, I really need some tape right now without having any on me.

Christian Solorzano [04:12]

And is it the clear packing tape?

Cass Pokora [04:14]

Yeah, I keep the clear packing tape on me. Sometimes it's duct tape and occasionally like blue painter's tape. I don't know. You just never know when you're gonna need it.

Christian Solorzano [04:22]

How old were you when you started doing that?

Cass Pokora [04:23]

I don't know, maybe 20.

Christian Solorzano [04:26]

And what are some of your other essentials that you typically keep with you even at your house? Like what are the things that you find you can't live without?

Cass Pokora [04:36]

That's a good question. I don't have a lot of things that I feel like I like have to have, but I always am in need of like clean, fresh socks. That's about it. I think I could even do without my phone.

Christian Solorzano [04:52]

When I think of you, I think of you not as just a designer. I think you're way beyond that. I think of you as an artist and photographer, and I don't know, to me lately I've been sort of questioning what titles even mean. But how do you tend to identify yourself? Are you, do you consider yourself to be an artist?

Cass Pokora [05:18]

That's an interesting question. I don't really know. I mean, I guess yes, but I don't, think about it that way. I guess I consider myself to be a designer because that's what I get paid to do.

Christian Solorzano [05:31]

Last year you did a residency in South Korea. You were there for, was it 6 weeks or 8 weeks?

Cass Pokora [05:39]

6 weeks.

Christian Solorzano [05:40]

6 weeks. And this year you had some work exhibited at Typeforce in Bridgeport, and you're also going to have that work featured at a coffee shop in your neighborhood called New Wave Cafe or Coffee. There's a few weeks ago you and I were talking and you mentioned that you were thinking about what your next project was going to be. How do you tend to come up with what your next thing is going to be?

Cass Pokora [06:10]

I don't know, actually. It sometimes feels like it can take me a little bit of time to figure that out. I don't like to get started on anything without like a strong concept or like really strong idea of what it is that I'm gonna be spending all this time doing. So I kind of let it like marinate. I like to clear everything off my plate, like those projects are done, and now just kind of let my surroundings and state kind of inform what will be next.

Christian Solorzano [06:40]

Do you tend to think with your head or do you think with your gut, or is it intuition? What are the senses in your body that usually Signal that this is a direction that you wanna go in?

Cass Pokora [06:51]

I think it, I think generally it starts as a thought, but it's kind of backed by an impulse to generally do something physically. I think part of why I have been thinking about ceramics so heavily lately too is after just like working, an office job for the last, 5 years or so now. I really miss the physicality aspect of like a, like a practice.

It feels so kind of mundane to just like only be using my fingers when I like to involve like so much more than that.

Christian Solorzano [07:33]

Do you tend to discover new things about yourself when you're making?

Cass Pokora [07:38]

Yeah, all the time. And as much as I like to have like a really clear idea of what it is that I'm doing. I also think that there's like 30 to 40% space in there for the process to inform the outcome.

Christian Solorzano [07:52]

Do you find that your work is kind of autobiographical or is it more so loose?

Cass Pokora [07:58]

I think it's a mix of both. Yeah, I think it's in a way, my just translation of my own experience, but I think it's like general enough to like maybe other people can relate or reinterpret it as well.

Christian Solorzano [08:12]

Most recently you're doing photography and you're exploring both digital photography and also film photography. Right. And I find that the, your film photography tends to, it's like you focusing in on very small moments, whether it's something that you're noticing on a trip. Or maybe like a texture. And I'm curious to hear if there's any distinction between Using a film camera and using a digital camera?

Cass Pokora [08:41]

I think over the years, as I've gotten more familiar with like both ways of shooting, I've kind of almost split directions in a sense of like what I wanna do with what cameras. 'Cause it's very, it's very easy to use a digital camera to like capture motion and that kind of thing. But with film, it's so experimental and I'm not gonna see the results right away. So it almost seems more curious in nature.

I think. And it's like, I don't know, waiting all that time to like see the final result is really exciting rather than just capturing an image I can just see with my eyes.

Christian Solorzano [09:19]

And on average, like when you, when you receive your rolls of film and your scans and everything, how much of it came out the way that you expected it to come out?

Cass Pokora [09:29]

Well, none of it. So 0%.

Christian Solorzano [09:33]

0%. Yeah.

Cass Pokora [09:34]

And then I would say maybe like 10 to 15% usable. It's not a high return rate.

Christian Solorzano [09:41]

Yeah. I used to shoot with a film camera and I stopped because of that reason.

Cass Pokora [09:45]

Yeah, I find, I find joy in that process though.

Christian Solorzano [09:49]

Talk to us about your recent exhibition at Typeforce. It was focused on values. You had a series of Different panels installed on a wall. They were each they had the backs, their rears painted with a fluorescent color that gave the impression of an outer glow. So to me that felt like a, there's like a digital approach to that outer glow. That I, when I think of outer glows, I think of like a Photoshop effect.

But you managed to, put that similar thing in the real world. So what were you exploring and walk us through maybe what that process was like?

Cass Pokora [10:34]

Yeah, Typeforce was really interesting and I didn't kind of think about my work really in the space with other people's work. Because as I like looked around the gallery and so much of it is meant to be read and it's kind of like telling you what it's trying to say.

And I felt like although my work uses letter forms and like says something, it's very abstract in nature and like hard to read as opposed to a lot of the things that were there, which I would've never considered. So I just find it so interesting how everyone can like receive a brief and then interpret it in a different way.

But yeah, I think, and so I actually didn't use like any digital typography for the project. I made prints using children's letter blocks that I rolled with ink and then pressed and then digitally manipulated from there. So it was all, it's a blend of analog and digital, which most of my work is. And then that kind of glow effect I wanted to create on the backside of the panels, really just did come from the idea of like the Gaussian blur effect.

And recreating it in real life. And it's so interesting because I was able to photograph the work and have photos of it, but it doesn't quite do it justice as it does like being there in person and seeing it, like seeing the color reflect back off the wall and create that like halo effect in real life. So I think it's really cool that like you, to see it in its best form, you like have to be there.

Christian Solorzano [12:07]

Yeah. Yeah. And did you, when I was there, I noticed that there's a lot of people that are like taking photographs and like zooming in, like almost putting their noses to the pieces. What was it like to have like your, like an exhibition and be able to see people interact? Did you feel vulnerable with, did you feel, I don't know how'd it feel?

Cass Pokora [12:27]

Was it awkward? No, it was like so heartwarming. It was really cool to see that maybe other people have like interest in the things that I have to make. Ultimately, I'm not, really concerned about what their reactions are to it. But it— I really love that they did seem to get like very close to it. And I wheat pasted those papers onto the board, so they did have like a really kind of like lovely texture, something that you'd want to get close to.

But yeah, it was a good feeling and I was like really surprised.

Christian Solorzano [12:57]

So do you know what's going to be next for you or like what you want to do next? Have you gave that some thought?

Cass Pokora [13:03]

I actually really enjoyed Typeforce is so great to give me like an opportunity to construct something with my hands. And I would like to next work at a little bit larger scale, but also utilizing like digital processes onto like physical structures that I build. So I don't know what all of that looks like yet, but I wanna keep Experimenting with that kind of idea.

Christian Solorzano [13:31]

Yeah. And also yesterday you shared with me that you're, you'd like, you, you're interested in being a corn maze designer, which I think is cool. I've never even knew that was a thing that people would consider doing.

Cass Pokora [13:43]

Yeah. Someone's gotta do it, right?

Christian Solorzano [13:45]

Yeah. Someone does have to do it.

Cass Pokora [13:46]

I just thought it would be a really unique way to use the skills that we have in the digital world and like put it on a really large. Kind of aerial scale. So I don't know if it will happen, but—

Christian Solorzano [14:00]

Yeah. Well, I think it'll happen eventually. And I think it'll be maybe the start of you doing things at a bigger, much larger scale. Yeah.

Cass Pokora [14:09]

I would really love to do that. So it, but it's funny how even just something so small as like having a piece in Typeforce, like changes my mindset of what I could potentially do with, design and stuff.

Christian Solorzano [14:20]

Do you have any memories of like the first thing that you ever created? As a kid?

Cass Pokora [14:24]

The first thing I ever created. Yes.

Christian Solorzano [14:30]

What was it?

Cass Pokora [14:31]

It, so I got a hot glue gun for Christmas one year and I would just hot glue everything together. Like I would just make a ball of junk with, beads or little trinkets or whatever I could find. And like I would just hot glue it all together. And that was our art.

Christian Solorzano [14:47]

Did you ever keep any of those things?

Cass Pokora [14:49]

No, I don't have them anymore. I wish I did.

Christian Solorzano [14:53]

Do you ever see yourself returning back to the hot glue gun?

Cass Pokora [14:57]

I, yes, I would like to.

Christian Solorzano [14:59]

I feel like that belongs in your purse as well.

Cass Pokora [15:01]

Yeah. You never know when you're gonna need it. That one would require an outlet, but yeah. Yeah, I'm sure they make wireless ones now. When tape isn't— yeah, when tape doesn't suffice.

Christian Solorzano [15:11]

You have liquid tape.

That's cool. So I feel like there's, I feel lucky that I've gotten to know you much better lately, and I feel like there's so much more to Cass. And I know that there's photography, there's now you exploring doing work at a much larger scale. But what I want to hear about is what is the kind of work that you find yourself responding to most? When you're out, either out in the wild or just stuff online, what are the things that grab your attention?

Cass Pokora [15:47]

I think, that's so interesting because it's all just taste and subjective. Yeah. The things that, everyone gravitates towards. But I think like just a strong sense of originality, probably. And style-wise, it would like, it lives somewhere in the world of like semi-surrealist, like things. Design or art.

Christian Solorzano [16:17]

I know you, you've shared with me in the past that you're, you have really vivid dreams. And some of those dreams, the way that you've described them to me, are quite surreal and interesting. Do you find that those things sort of make their way into what you do?

Cass Pokora [16:39]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [16:40]

Into your work? Yeah.

Cass Pokora [16:42]

Yeah. And also I do think there's some, sometimes if I'm, am thinking about something, I think dreams will like further the idea or like redirect it, or they will play like a part in that process, which is really neat.

Christian Solorzano [16:54]

Have you ever been able to I think it's called lucid dream?

Cass Pokora [16:58]

Yeah. I don't like that.

Christian Solorzano [17:00]

You don't like that?

Cass Pokora [17:00]

No.

Christian Solorzano [17:01]

What kind of dreams do you like to have?

Cass Pokora [17:02]

Not nightmares.

Christian Solorzano [17:06]

Not nightmares.

Cass Pokora [17:07]

Yeah. Understood.

Christian Solorzano [17:10]

Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about your imaginary place?

Cass Pokora [17:15]

Sure. So my imaginary place is very real to me but it's like, it's a place that I constructed in my head that I can go to rest or feel relief from reality.

And it's it looks something like a floating glob of land that has like a big city built on top of it that most closely resembles Prague for some reason. And it's very tall, although like winding roads like lead upwards. And it's just a place that I can like picture myself in and like take a walk or like clear my mind or relax, I suppose. Yeah. So there's all like kinds of little things in there. And I also keep making additions.

Christian Solorzano [18:15]

So you're like designing in this, in this world and you're creating. I remember the first time that you told me that, and I totally can see that there's like this that there's some of that Imagine worlds in some of the stuff that I've seen you do, specifically your photography. I think your photography, to me, they, you create these like micro compositions where like you're zooming in on a little, a little plant. Like it feels like you're zooming in on a, on a world in its own.

Like most recently, I think you shared one that was just like it looked like it was mist on a window. And then you've shared a few other ones where it's just like you were looking through a window into— it was at a cemetery in Argentina, right? And it was like, was it a coffin?

Cass Pokora [19:04]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [19:05]

And there was like, it was very cool colors and it looked very otherworldly. Is there any relationship between the stuff that draws your eye to the stuff that lives in your mind? Are you trying to find little glimpses of this fantasy world out in the real world.

Cass Pokora [19:27]

Of course, that's the kind of stuff that motivates me. I'm, I feel like I'm always looking for that image or picture or that feeling that I get, like taking those photos that don't, that feel grander than reality. I think in a way.

Christian Solorzano [19:44]

And do you find that you come back to old work of yours to like revisit and sort of Look at, wonder about, critique, or how do you— what's your relationship to your work once it's been complete?

Cass Pokora [19:57]

Actually, no. I very much forget about it and move forward. It feels more like a reaction in time, and then I have no problem leaving it. I don't generally come back to old work. I think it's all kind of like on the path to get somewhere else, so I like to, complete something and then move to the next.

Christian Solorzano [20:17]

And when you talk about a path to something else, do you feel like you have a sense of what that path is? Or, or—

Cass Pokora [20:26]

I, all I know is that there is a path. I don't know where it's going and I don't want to.

Christian Solorzano [20:32]

The other thing that I wanna talk about is you are starting a new job.

Cass Pokora [20:38]

I am.

Christian Solorzano [20:40]

And that's really exciting. What's, what are the signals that let you know that it's time for change? How do you assess that it's time to move on and that it's time for you to do something different?

Cass Pokora [20:52]

I think there's no other, there's nothing measurable about it other than like a general feeling I get. I grow bored of routine and repetition relatively quickly, I think. But I think Maybe almost 2 years ago now is when I started applying for residencies. I think I initiated that process like in want of something else or something different to kind of just break it up?

And I, in this, what we call a creative field, it's so hard to, no, there's nothing creative about like sitting in an office every day. To me, and like not going out to experience the world or new things. Like I, that's where all inspiration comes from. So I don't know, maybe like that kind of feeling dies, the inspiration aspect, and I feel ready for something else.

Christian Solorzano [21:49]

Do you feel like there's something you're searching for or longing for when it comes to feeling like it's time for change?

Cass Pokora [21:58]

Yeah, I think it almost feels like an addiction. Like it's just, it's a feeling that I crave. And it oftentimes doesn't come from like anything in particular, just like a new environment and new people. And just like the want to learn new things.

Christian Solorzano [22:15]

You strike me as someone that's always really curious, asks a lot of questions, and is open-minded. Is that something that came to you naturally, or do you find that it's something that you worked to get to a point to be able to be like that?

Cass Pokora [22:32]

I think I've always been a very curious person, but I haven't always had the tools to act upon those things. So as I've gotten older, I've definitely been better about asking the questions I'm curious about.

Christian Solorzano [22:47]

Yeah. What were some of the things as a child that like would sort of ruminate in your mind?

Cass Pokora [22:52]

One of them, I was always like so curious, when you go to the eye doctor and they like scan your eyeballs and they show you the photos. That was just like the craziest thing ever to me because I'd never seen it before. And it wasn't until I was like an adult that I actually felt comfortable enough to ask the optometrist all these questions about like what the heck I was looking at. So I don't know, small things like that.

Christian Solorzano [23:18]

You're talking about like when you can see your veins?

Cass Pokora [23:20]

Yeah. And there's these like spots and you're just what are those? I have no clue. It's just a unique image that I don't generally get to see.

Christian Solorzano [23:27]

Most recently you painted the walls in your home?

Cass Pokora [23:32]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [23:33]

To a kind of like burnt yellow. How would you describe that color?

Cass Pokora [23:37]

It's like kind of like an ochre yellow. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [23:40]

What does your ideal space look like?

Cass Pokora [23:43]

Lived in.

Christian Solorzano [23:44]

Lived in.

Cass Pokora [23:45]

I ideally all the like nothing really needs to match. And just like warm and comforting.

Christian Solorzano [23:54]

So you don't have like one particular like style or preference? You kind of like eclectic. Mishmash of—

Cass Pokora [24:01]

Yeah, I just like a mishmash. I feel a lot of comfort in that for some reason.

Christian Solorzano [24:05]

And you have a lot of your own— you tend to decorate your space with stuff that you've created yourself, such as your mugs and your framed photographs. Can you talk about— can you talk about how you like curate the art in your space? Because you have a handful of pieces.

Cass Pokora [24:25]

Yeah, well that's interesting because the photographs I have or the ceramics that I have, those— I don't consider myself like a professional photographer or ceramic artist. So like those feel more like hobbies to me, but I don't have my like design work.

Christian Solorzano [24:41]

You don't have a logo that you've done or like a website on your wall?

Cass Pokora [24:44]

No, I don't know. I think part of it comes too from just these are the things that I have and I've made and that's what I have for my space. Not, I can't afford to always have all these really nice things. So what I, what I make is what I have.

Christian Solorzano [25:00]

That's cool. And you also, you have a handful of plants and you have like a book collection as well. So I find that like, it's like books, it's plants and it's art and it's a lot of ceramics that you've, that I feel like I identify. Is there anything else you collect or anything else that you, you're like always kind of have an open eye for?

Cass Pokora [25:22]

I'm not a big collector. I don't like excess objects. That being said, I do have like several shark figurines and shark-related memorabilia in my house, but maybe clothes.

Christian Solorzano [25:38]

Yeah, I was about to say that. I feel like you— there's clothes as a Cass thing that I would— Associate with.

Cass Pokora [25:46]

I would say clothes, but also too, I like, if I acquire new things, I try to also get rid of things. Yeah. Or donate things that I no longer wear.

Christian Solorzano [25:55]

And when you were, when you were like coming of age, let's say between the years of like 13 to 17, I find that a lot of people during that age, they have sort of a did you have like a role model or even if it's not someone that was in your life, but did you look to someone or something As your primary source of like inspiration or reference? What was the world that was like twirling around your head when you were, a teenager?

Cass Pokora [26:28]

I think I took inspiration from lots of different things. But I've never really been all that obsessed or interested in those who've acquired fame. I think I was just more interested in creating whatever it is I wanted to do. And I—

Christian Solorzano [26:54]

What I like about you is that you, you're not— one, you're not like a heavily active social media user from what I gather. It's rare that I ever see you like on your phone. So I feel like most of the stuff that creates your inner world is coming from the physical real life stuff, right?

Cass Pokora [27:27]

It is. Yeah. Yeah. As great as social media is, especially like for artists to share their work and designers, it, it's really neat to be able to see all of that. But I think on the other hand, it's really easy to like see and then copy or like recreate. And some of the like that originality aspect I think gets lost.

Christian Solorzano [27:47]

And what about Chicago? Do you find yourself drawing a lot from Chicago, from the city?

Cass Pokora [27:51]

I think so. Yeah, definitely.

Christian Solorzano [27:53]

Because you, you're not— you're from Illinois, you're from the Chicagoland area, but did you did not grow up in the city?

Cass Pokora [27:59]

No.

Christian Solorzano [28:00]

But now you live in the city. When you were a kid, did you visit Chicago often?

Cass Pokora [28:04]

I did, yeah. I visited Chicago. I always knew that I would wanna come and be a part of the city.

Christian Solorzano [28:11]

And what are some of the things that you did when you would visit?

Cass Pokora [28:13]

Just the main things. Go to Navy Pier, walk around downtown in the Loop.

Christian Solorzano [28:20]

And that's where we're at right now. We're on Michigan Avenue.

Cass Pokora [28:24]

Yeah. Now we are. Perfect.

Christian Solorzano [28:29]

Cool. So in addition to like you being someone that tends to be more experience-inspired, what do you hope that— what kind of inspiration do you hope that people draw from some of the work that you create? Do you, if you were to decide, or like if you were to have any say in like what you want people to feel when they look at a photo that you took or your Typeforce exhibition? Is there like a mood that you're trying to evoke in people?

Cass Pokora [29:03]

There's nothing in particular I'm trying to do for other people. Anything I make, I mean, it's like art's mostly like a selfish practice. Like it's mostly just for me. But I guess if I hope that they feel anything, it's like inspired to see things in a different way or try something new or ultimately just like go like do something about it.

Christian Solorzano [29:33]

Yeah. Did you have any teachers growing up that you, that gave you the space to like explore and wonder or? When you were growing up, did you find that there was someone or something that like kind of cultivated that curiosity in you?

Cass Pokora [29:52]

I had a math teacher when I was young that I really loved that helped me along with that. But I had a really difficult time expressing myself as a young person. So I like, so much so that I wouldn't be able to make art. Like I really kept everything inside and just, Didn't yeah, it just wasn't easy for me to express myself. So I think there was some hindrance there between me and a lot of teachers.

Christian Solorzano [30:19]

What kind of student were you?

Cass Pokora [30:20]

I was a smartass. I was I was an a student, but a's— A, yeah, straight a student, but a also being for like a lot of attitude.

Christian Solorzano [30:34]

Like conduct?

Cass Pokora [30:35]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [30:35]

Did you get graded on conduct? Was that like a metric on your report card?

Cass Pokora [30:40]

Oh, I don't know. I just did well in school cuz I knew I had to be able to go to college and all that kind of stuff. But I didn't I didn't like it per se.

Christian Solorzano [30:51]

You've shared with me in the past that you used, you used to like to, you like to push back with your teachers, right?

Cass Pokora [30:58]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [30:59]

What was typically on what, like what were some of the things that would frustrate you about the school?

Cass Pokora [31:05]

I just didn't like being told what I could and could not do. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [31:09]

What were some of those things?

Cass Pokora [31:10]

One of those things was I had a gym class first period in high school, and in the morning, similar to now, I was an avid tea drinker. So I would bring my tea to gym class and I would sit there and drink my tea while I waited for class to start. And I was told repeatedly that I couldn't have tea in gym class. And I felt like, I was just sitting there, so I should be able to have my tea.

Anyway, it led me to a couple detentions. It's just things like that. I just wanted to I didn't see a reason why I couldn't have it.

Christian Solorzano [31:48]

You were an athlete, I would say. Okay, so like that was a big part of your life and it was basketball. And you were playing with the upper-class people. Like you were in like, what was it, 6th grade and you were playing with 8th graders?

Cass Pokora [32:06]

Yeah. I mean, it's girls basketball in the suburbs, so.

Christian Solorzano [32:09]

But still, that is— and what was, do you don't play basketball anymore, but you, what's your relationship to sports now?

Cass Pokora [32:18]

Yeah, I don't play basketball anymore, but I do still have that kind of routine in my life. Like exercise is a big part of my life. And movement and in different ways now.

Christian Solorzano [32:34]

And I hear you're a boxer now.

Cass Pokora [32:37]

Wanting to be, trying my best.

Christian Solorzano [32:41]

That's cool. What are some of your favorite things you like to do in the city?

Cass Pokora [32:45]

My favorite thing to do in any city is walk around, walk around and just observe. Yeah, I find so much joy in that.

Christian Solorzano [33:00]

I know you like to people watch.

Cass Pokora [33:02]

Yes, I love to people watch. I was thinking about it this morning actually when I was taking a walk on the 606 and so many people are passing you by and running and whatever, and there's so many conversations and like just hearing fragments of everybody's conversations is like such beautiful insight. Yeah, that's just one of my favorite things to take in.

Christian Solorzano [33:24]

Is there anything about human behavior that surprises you? Or that not surprises you, but what's something about human behavior that you tend to focus closely on?

Cass Pokora [33:35]

The idea of this is what the people around me are doing, so I also should do that. Groups tend to like dress the same or be into the same things and like it's all for that sense of belonging. And I find, I just find that idea something really interesting and something I think about a lot.

Christian Solorzano [33:57]

Yeah. I think when it comes to, whenever I think of you, I don't, I find it difficult to put you in a category or like fit you in something. 'Cause I feel like you have a very peculiar and interesting sense of self. Which I think is a good thing. I can't— like, there's no stereotype that I feel like I can assign to you because kind of like the way that you treat your home, you tend to be like this collection of like different things fused together.

Is that— I'm assuming that that's not intentional. That's just sort of like a byproduct of like your personality and how you are, right?

Cass Pokora [34:38]

Yeah, I think it's like a byproduct of what I was— have been given in life. Like there wasn't I have a lot of freedoms and like not a lot of people telling me what to do or how I need to be, which is really great 'cause it allows me to like decide for myself. And sometimes I think people think like they can forget that they can choose like what they like or what they want or all those kinds of things.

Christian Solorzano [35:02]

The difficult part that comes often with being in college or being in high school or whatever is like fitting in. And I think people generally, when they, when they fit in, sometimes it's, it comes at the expense of who they truly are on the inside. Did you, have you ever felt like you had to sort of compromise who you are or were?

Cass Pokora [35:32]

I think, yeah, growing up in like a small town, there was like a— there's like a prescribed version of acceptance there. Yeah. And I definitely very much took part in like altering myself to try and fit in. But it, it— that's, I think, yeah, was some of my draw to like get to the city and like go explore other things, because I know that I couldn't have been the only one feeling that way.

And I've been so lucky to like find other people who, now I do feel like I fit in.

Christian Solorzano [36:06]

That are also weird?

Cass Pokora [36:07]

Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, I found a great group of weirdos.

Christian Solorzano [36:11]

We're driving past a lot of motorcycles. What are your thoughts on motorcycles?

Cass Pokora [36:16]

I think they're super cool. I— when I was young, I saved up all my money to buy a moped, like a cool one. It was a Honda Ruckus, not like a little Italian one. It kind of looks like a motorcycle. And I would ride that all around and I loved it. And I really wanted to always get like a sports bike.

Christian Solorzano [36:33]

I'm curious to learn more about is your shark fixation. What was your, when was the first time that you, when did you first hear of a shark and why sharks? I know you even have a, you even know what kind of shark you would be if you were one?

Cass Pokora [36:56]

Yeah, I just saw, everyone has like their favorite animal. I came across Shark Week on TV when I was very young, like not having any idea of what it was, just flipping through the channels. And when I found out there was like an entire week of shark content to be absorbed, I was like in love with it. I'm fascinated by the ocean and all of its creatures, although I don't really care to go in it. I really love it.

Yeah, I'm just— I'm so interested by how they are and all of, all of the species. And yeah, I've just kind of been obsessed with it.

Christian Solorzano [37:40]

What's your spirit shark? What's the shark that you would be?

Cass Pokora [37:43]

Well, it's actually changed over time, so Right now it's the thresher shark.

Christian Solorzano [37:48]

Is that the one that has the teeth on the outside of its face? Is that—

Cass Pokora [37:51]

No. They're actually really cute, but they have— their tails are like up to 5 feet long and they're really skinny and they can whip it like almost 60 miles an hour.

Christian Solorzano [38:00]

Really? Why do they do that?

Cass Pokora [38:02]

They can do it for many reasons, but they can also do it to like kill their prey. Yeah, it's really neat.

Christian Solorzano [38:07]

Yeah, it's very neat.

Cass Pokora [38:09]

Yeah, it's very— I just think it's so fascinating by Through evolution, they evolved like a 5-foot-long tail. I mean, who does that?

Christian Solorzano [38:18]

How do you— what do you think humans will evolve to, let's say a million years from now?

Cass Pokora [38:21]

In a million years from now, we'll be dead.

Christian Solorzano [38:25]

You think we'll be dead?

Cass Pokora [38:26]

Yeah, that's what we'll evolve to. We'll evolve back into the earth.

Christian Solorzano [38:28]

So talk to me about colors. What are the colors that light up Cass's world?

Cass Pokora [38:33]

Oh, yellow. Always yellow.

Christian Solorzano [38:36]

And why is that?

Cass Pokora [38:37]

I don't know.

Christian Solorzano [38:39]

I—

Cass Pokora [38:40]

It's like it just feels like an addicting color. Like you can't look away. I love it. I'm so drawn to it.

Christian Solorzano [38:49]

But I find it interesting that I never see you wear yellow.

Cass Pokora [38:52]

Yeah, I'd rather look at it than wear it.

Christian Solorzano [38:55]

I understand.

Cass Pokora [38:56]

But I like all colors. But, yellow is at the top. Second to green or first, next would be green.

Christian Solorzano [39:05]

Yeah. And what are some of your least favorite colors?

Cass Pokora [39:10]

I find purple to be a little bit excessive. Orange as well can be, pretty aggressive.

Christian Solorzano [39:17]

What about red?

Cass Pokora [39:19]

Yeah, I guess I would place red at the bottom of the list. I only like a little bit of it. In general, I like— I mean, I'll take as much yellow as I can get, but I like black and white with a little bit of colors.

Christian Solorzano [39:34]

Do you tend to be someone that finds a lot of relationships between things out in the world?

Cass Pokora [39:39]

Yeah, I think that's like very much the design, mind, just like trying to connect things and like make sense of things.

Christian Solorzano [39:46]

What I often notice in your work as well is that there always tends to be some kind of tension. And that tension to me feels very intentional. Like there's this, an example would be like your Typeforce piece. Like it's just mono, it's just black and white. And then there's like this tension that's being created with like the accent colors.

And even like, I don't know, I associate like your fashion style as also holding some kind of like tension in a good way. Is that tension, am I, am I correct in making that assumption that you tend to like to have things that contrast each other?

Cass Pokora [40:28]

Sure. Yeah. I like contrasting things. I think there's like more excitement in that. But I wouldn't, it's not like something I intend to do.

Christian Solorzano [40:40]

And as you've been, as you've been having a creative practice for the, for the past couple of years, what are some markers in that time that have signaled a new, like an evolution in how you see and how you work? Can you come back? Is there any milestones along the way where it's like, this was pre-Cass and now this is after Cass?

Cass Pokora [41:06]

I think the milestones haven't come at this point.

Christian Solorzano [41:12]

It's—

Cass Pokora [41:12]

Everything's so early and like the milestones have come more in like thought process. And that's kind of how I feel one of those like milestones or mind shift sets was kind of like returning back to more analog practices or like using my hands and body to create things, which I feel like I only— I think this is the direction I wanna go right now, but I don't think I would've felt that way had I not had it for a couple years. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [41:46]

What makes you super happy about the creative process? How do you know in your body when you're doing, when you're like orbiting the right thing?

Cass Pokora [41:54]

Well, I wouldn't say like 60% of that process is super happy. I think it's a lot of, it's a lot of unknowns. I think the happy parts are only a small part of like the big, process, but I generally enjoy the not knowing really what's to come. Of it.

Christian Solorzano [42:17]

And how does joy and happiness tend to, how does that manifest in your body? Do you yeah, how do you do it?

Cass Pokora [42:24]

It comes out in the form of like that flow state that you, okay, like get into. That's how I know.

Christian Solorzano [42:32]

You don't giggle or like get up and walk in a circle and then sit down?

Cass Pokora [42:38]

Yeah, sometimes I do that too.

Christian Solorzano [42:39]

Do you have a moment that you've been really proud of, or any kind of breakthrough moments that you've, that you feel like you've had or have come close to feeling?

Cass Pokora [42:48]

I don't know that I feel that really. I think that's not an easy thing for me to feel in the present, and it's maybe something that like it has to I have to be able to look back on.

Christian Solorzano [42:59]

Yeah, that happens to me too. Like sometimes it's like in it's in the future that I'm able to look back at something and realize that it was like, a good thing, or sometimes that it was actually not that great of a thing. But I don't know, there's something to me so vulnerable about choosing to be someone that has a creative practice because there's a lot of, sometimes there's like doubt and there's like fear.

And there could be anxiousness. And I think to be able to like tolerate all the, all of those difficult emotions for like sometimes like a sliver of happiness. It's such a, I don't know, it feels so like such a brave thing to be a creative person.

And even looking at some of the items that we saw today a lot of the ceramics, like the amount of hours that people have put into the ability to make just one very simple cup that may look kind of boring, but you know that there's like this like rich story and like vulnerability in that. To subject yourself to that is, I don't know, it's wild.

Cass Pokora [44:19]

Well, it's interesting. I feel like As a designer, part of the benefit of like, we're so used to feedback and like just having your work ripped apart and like not feeling— it's so important to not feel so attached to it or, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons so you're not taking things personally and that kind of stuff.

But when I see more of a traditional artist who's, been working and maybe doesn't have that like level of feedback or they're not getting that all the time, it may feel like much more personal. So I think it's like a, it's definitely a brave thing to do, but yeah, it's important not to like take what others have to say.

Christian Solorzano [45:09]

Yeah. And it's so, it's so difficult. I find that, sometimes people go to design school because a parent or someone in their childhood told them that they were good at drawing or like they had a camera and they were like, oh, you take photos, like maybe go to school for design. And then you take that person that is sensitive, maybe emotional, and maybe not the most extroverted.

And then you put them through this design program and then now you like expect them to like sell ideas and be business. And I find that to be such a like bait and switch. 'Cause it's like, we're gonna teach you how to make a poster and take pictures. And then it's like, and now you have to do like, get a bunch of feedback and meet some stupid metrics. And go to meetings and take notes and like deal with difficult people.

Cass Pokora [46:13]

Yeah, there should be just a class on that.

Christian Solorzano [46:15]

I remember you told me that you lost your first job and then you got your second job and it was outta necessity and that you actually went to the place to hand your resume. Was that, or you called them or you—

Cass Pokora [46:29]

Oh yeah. Yeah, I lost my first job. Very unexpectedly. And, as like a 23-year-old, like with just trying to get through life. It was very scary. So I was trying to find a job as soon as I could. And I guess a little bit part of that desperation helped me get a new job, but I just was like calling anyone I could find.

Christian Solorzano [46:50]

Oh yeah, you were calling.

Cass Pokora [46:51]

Yeah, I just like cold-called my previous employer, which was very funny because he like didn't understand that I was looking for a job and just thought I was a recruiter trying to like find somebody for the job.

Christian Solorzano [47:02]

That's funny.

Cass Pokora [47:04]

But yeah, that's how, that's how I got into contact with him. Not just submitting a resume through a portal or whatever.

Christian Solorzano [47:11]

What would be some of your like if there's someone listening that is like a baby Cass or someone that is just young and looking to get some insight, like what's something that you found to be really helpful when you were starting off?

Cass Pokora [47:30]

I would say it's such a, although it may seem really daunting because you don't have any experience or credentials or these things, you're actually in such an awesome position because there's like, there's nothing expected of you. So like whatever you do next, whether it's good or bad, like nobody cares. And that's like a really freeing place to be. So I think like you should just like push it as much as you can. And like really put yourself out there because like, who cares?

Christian Solorzano [47:58]

Yeah, there is a recent, at my company there's a new hire that just joined the team a few weeks ago and we were, and she was asking us for advice on how to, just get acclimated. And they said that for like the first year she has the I'm new here card where she can just ask as many questions as she wants. 'Cause like no one's expecting her to know like everything. So I find that the first few years of someone like being fresh outta college.

Is like you're not expected to know anything.

Cass Pokora [48:32]

No, you're not. And I think that's like the most important time, like to just figure out what you're doing. Ask as many questions as you possibly can. I think there was even some moments with my previous employer that I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, but Asking for help and like putting yourself in a position to like continually learn is really important.

Christian Solorzano [48:54]

And I think it's such a cool, I really appreciate when people are able to admit that they don't know something and that they wanna learn. And I think sometimes I see it less now where people expect someone to know a lot.

Like I, I've been not— at least maybe it's just the people that I, that I, have in my life, but there's like a power in ignorance and in just being like a clean slate and being open to like learning that kind of stuff. 'Cause I have run into sometimes individuals where they're so fixated on like knowing one thing and I don't know, it's like, does anyone really know anything?

Cass Pokora [49:42]

I actually think that kind of, I, idea like worked better in the past. Yeah, to be kind of that specialist. But now, especially with like all the technologies we're expected to know and learn, like you kind of just need to be able to be flexible and do a little bit of everything and then decide best how to fix your client or whatever problem.

Christian Solorzano [50:00]

And what have been some of the cool projects that you've had a chance to work on in like, in your career?

Cass Pokora [50:07]

Some cool projects. I've had a good hand in creating and doing branding for a couple of music festivals. That's been really exciting. Yeah, the whole kind of brand packages for a couple of those, I would say, is probably the most exciting work I've done in the last couple years.

Christian Solorzano [50:31]

And then recently you also did a you had a big display at South by Southwest.

Cass Pokora [50:40]

Yeah, my company did. We worked with a brand called Superhuman and did like a big brand activation at South by Southwest in the spring or early spring this year. That was a really incredible experience 'cause it's not every day we get to work so like in an experiential way.

Christian Solorzano [50:58]

Yeah. So I do see this like recurring theme come up with you, which is like, Creating big scale things. And like experiential stuff as opposed to like, do you do much web work or digital stuff or is it mostly print?

Cass Pokora [51:12]

Mostly print. I had like a counterpart on my team that did more like web and digital, solely digital. Which is really lucky for me cuz it's not my favorite thing to do.

Christian Solorzano [51:24]

Yeah. And what's like your what's something that you love to do? Something very within design, like what are you, what do you tend to obsess over? Or what are you super critical of?

Cass Pokora [51:39]

I'm critical of proper refinement. I think I'm like really hard on myself about, or my work about that. Can this be refined? Or like, can I pull back?

Christian Solorzano [51:51]

Yeah.

Cass Pokora [51:51]

Just I feel like I do a lot of iterations of that.

Christian Solorzano [51:54]

Do you like to iterate?

Cass Pokora [51:55]

Yes.

Christian Solorzano [51:55]

You do? Okay. I don't.

Cass Pokora [52:00]

You don't?

Christian Solorzano [52:01]

No. I find, I don't know, a long time ago someone told me that sometimes the best ideas, the first idea is the best idea. And ever since then, I've been like trying to trust that.

Cass Pokora [52:16]

Well, I think that's, that can be true. I mean, it can be true, but I think I'm still working on developing like those base layers to like make those first ideas better. But I think as being even younger, like there's lots of ideas that have to come out first before the good ones come, and that process maybe gets smoother as time goes on.

Christian Solorzano [52:35]

Most recently you were at my studio in Oak Park. I believe it was a Sunday, and I was in the middle of Working with Rick, my mentor, Valicenti. And you were there, you were working on your Typeforce exhibition on your computer, like setting up your files and everything. And then you got sucked into this vortex of him and I discussing a poster design, and then you getting looped in, and you and him both directing me. On the computer.

Cass Pokora [53:16]

That's true.

Christian Solorzano [53:16]

And it was a very like unconventional, probably to you, like very different, even for me, like just a very different approach to design, which is we're gonna make a poster, we're gonna do it in under an hour, and it's gonna be like improvised, and there's gonna be very little room for judgment or critique. We're just gonna kind of go.

Based off not even intuition but chance, which was we're going to take it— like, you're going to take a photograph with your phone of a— of like just the desk. You're going to zoom in, and then you're going to use your thumbs to draw some shapes.

We're going to put it on the computer. We're going to start layering things on top of it and make something that I thought was actually going to look I was nervous when I saw it printed. It was a poster for the Chicago Paper Show at the Chicago Cultural Center. So it was like a big deal because we're, we were, we got really nice paper donated to us by French Paper.

So in my mind, there was like this expectation that this thing had to look a particular way, and what was created on that day Looked unlike anything that I would've ever done. Talk about what it was like to be a part of that.

Cass Pokora [54:39]

Yeah, I believe the conversation started with Rick asking me if I had 5 minutes. Yeah, it was a really interesting way to work. And it was like us in person and then him via web call. So taking his direction and kind of, Doing what his, he says, but then having the outcome just happen by chance was really interesting. I've never worked in that way before. I think it was I felt like it was a really good initial exercise to like build a rapport.

And to like understand how somebody else works. And I think Rick was, is like such a great like teacher and mentor in that way. Like helping you feel, like it's a good space to do that in.

Christian Solorzano [55:22]

Yeah. What I liked was that to begin with, there was, the only concept was he sends 2 thumbs up emoji. That's what the cue was. And then you use your 2 thumbs to just like draw things on your phone. And then that led to like, when we said, let's include the Design Club logo on the poster, I placed it on the artboard and then wherever, like where it landed is where it ended up being.

There is no like, let's make it smaller, let's put it here. And I find that kind of like fearless— to me, I feel like that's a kind of fearlessness in design, which is just to trust that kind of going back to what I said earlier, that sometimes like the best, the first idea is like the best idea. And I think through like education and working professionally, like we're sometimes trained to like second guess ourselves, which Sucks, in my opinion. Yeah.

Cass Pokora [56:26]

And I think the, it seems a little bit anti-designer to say, but some getting caught up in the details doesn't always, seem to matter. I liked working in that way because whether we moved something like an inch or not, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Like some of these things just don't matter. And the outcome may be better off.

Christian Solorzano [56:49]

Without it. Yeah. And there is some, there is some detail in the non-detail because sometimes not obsessing over the details creates a new kind of detail that would never been something that you would've, that you would've done.

And then going back to what we were talking about earlier about like contrast, I do like when there's very little sense of rigorous composition placements. But then on that particular poster, I feel like the only rigor present was in the type at the bottom that said it said Cass's Thumb and Rick's Prompt, I believe.

And there is, there is some detail to that I feel like if someone sees a poster as a whole and they're like, oh, that kind of looks I, when I shared it with my students at school, they said that it was, it felt very anti-design cuz it was going against every sort of best practice. But it still had everything that a poster needs, which is like a logo, imagery. There was like a clear line that guiding the eye.

But it was just not styled in such a way that would, maybe get a, like a lot of likes on Instagram or something. I don't know. So how do you balance like trusting yourself when you're making something? Do you second guess yourself?

Cass Pokora [58:17]

No, I just think it's important to like do it and then evaluate from there. Otherwise you're just, at least for me, I won't get anything done. I find it easiest to make decisions and then make more decisions if it's working or not and go from there.

Christian Solorzano [58:36]

Do you think— are you an overthinker?

Cass Pokora [58:37]

I try not to be. But I am, probably.

Christian Solorzano [58:42]

What do you spend most time thinking about?

Cass Pokora [58:44]

I spend the most time thinking about what my— what I'm gonna eat.

Christian Solorzano [58:47]

I know, I knew, I knew you were gonna say that.

Cass Pokora [58:49]

I spend a lot of time thinking about that, which feels silly.

Christian Solorzano [58:54]

I remember when you told me once that the first thing you think about when you wake up is food.

Cass Pokora [59:01]

I'm always thinking about food.

Christian Solorzano [59:03]

What are— what do you like to eat?

Cass Pokora [59:04]

Everything.

Christian Solorzano [59:05]

What's like your the thing that you love to indulge in?

Cass Pokora [59:08]

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Sweets, popcorn, butter, sugar, salt. All the good stuff.

Christian Solorzano [59:16]

You're really into chocolate?

Cass Pokora [59:18]

Yeah. I mean, I'm an enjoyer of chocolate.

Christian Solorzano [59:21]

Looking back 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now at this recording, and is there something that you'd like to say to your future self watching this? I mean, she's sitting and maybe she is looking at this projected in her living room, and maybe you're, I don't know, levitating.

Cass Pokora [59:46]

I don't know. I don't know that there's anything.

Christian Solorzano [59:49]

Or what— yeah, what do you want to say to her? Is there anything you want to say to her?

Cass Pokora [59:53]

The only thing I would say to her is that I hope that you Continue doing all the things that you're doing now.

Christian Solorzano [59:59]

And what is she doing?

Cass Pokora [60:01]

Well, she's levitating watching this, so she's probably taking a break from doing something.

Christian Solorzano [60:06]

What is she doing?

Cass Pokora [60:07]

She's probably frustrated at some project she can't figure out.

Christian Solorzano [60:11]

She's frustrated. All right. You can't put that into the universe.

Cass Pokora [60:15]

Well, she can't she's unsure where to go with her next project, or maybe she's looking for inspiration.

Christian Solorzano [60:24]

So, and then if there was like—

Cass Pokora [60:25]

Or maybe she's being interviewed then and she's like being asked about a milestone that she had and she had to like come back and watch to figure it out.

Christian Solorzano [60:39]

Okay. And then what if there is like a time machine and there was— this episode was recorded, but it was now broadcast to Cass, 10 years ago, what is something that you would be like saying to her watching this?

Cass Pokora [60:55]

Oh dang.

Christian Solorzano [60:57]

She's on her phone, or maybe she's on an iPad, and she's in her bedroom and she's playing with a shark figurine and gluing stuff. She's like covered in glue.

Cass Pokora [61:12]

That sounds like the future, not the past. Sorry, what was the question?

Christian Solorzano [61:18]

Just what's something that you'd, that, what's something that you'd want 10-year, like 10 years ago Cass to hear from present day Cass?

Cass Pokora [61:28]

Oh, just keep gluing everything. Like just keep going and doing it because that's what you should do and you shouldn't run from that instinct. You should lean into it. Yeah. Make things stickier, if you will.

Christian Solorzano [61:44]

Before we wrap up, what are some of the things that you've been listening to lately or watching, or what's been orbiting your world lately?

Cass Pokora [61:53]

Lately I have been listening to just some of my favorite bands. There's like a kind of a post-punk Irish band called Gurriers that I really love. I got to see them a couple months ago in Chicago on their first US tour. That was really awesome. And another band I always come back to is like a synth pop kind of thing called Agar. And they're really— they're like a French duo, and I love listening to their stuff.

Christian Solorzano [62:23]

And you're really into the local Chicago scene?

Cass Pokora [62:26]

Of course. Yep.

Christian Solorzano [62:27]

Which I think is awesome. I don't know, I unfortunately don't know too many like Chicago music stuff. I do, but I feel like way more than I do.

Cass Pokora [62:37]

Well, I have friends and family that are also into it, so.

Christian Solorzano [62:43]

Great. And anything, I know you're not a big watcher of things, but anything that you've been watching lately?

Cass Pokora [62:50]

I haven't been really watching anything in particular, but there's a new season of an anime show that I like that just came out, so I will be watching that.

Christian Solorzano [63:02]

And another question, is there any place in Chicago that you're a regular at and that if you walked in they would know what it is that you want?

Cass Pokora [63:13]

Yeah, just probably my local food co-op. Yeah, they would know. They actually should just prepare my groceries and give them to me because I buy the same things very often.

Christian Solorzano [63:23]

And what do you get?

Cass Pokora [63:26]

Fresh fruits, vegetables. I will always pick up like a pre-made salad or anything of that nature. And of course chocolate.

Christian Solorzano [63:34]

And also I find that you have, you gravitate towards packaging that is interesting.

Cass Pokora [63:42]

Yeah. Sometimes I like to buy products that just have the ugliest packaging possible.

Christian Solorzano [63:52]

So shout out to Slim Kim. And then there's also the milk, like the raw milk that you drink.

Cass Pokora [63:57]

Yeah. And they're the ugliest non-designed labels, but like the highest quality foods.

Christian Solorzano [64:04]

Yeah. And I find like there's something to be said about people that are so invested in like making good quality stuff that the design of their product is like not even, they trust that the quality is in what's inside.

Cass Pokora [64:17]

Honestly, yeah, that feels like a bold move on its own. I don't need some fancy brand to persuade me, right? Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [64:23]

Are you loyal to any brands? Do you have any loyalty to anything?

Cass Pokora [64:26]

No, I like to mix it up and try different things.

Christian Solorzano [64:28]

Well, that is all of my questions for you, Cass. Okay.

Cass Pokora [64:33]

Thank you for all of the questions.

Christian Solorzano [64:34]

I like to ask a lot of questions, as.

Cass Pokora [64:37]

I do. Thank you.

Christian Solorzano [64:39]

And now we're gonna go eat. Thank you so much for tuning in till the end. As always, if you appreciate and enjoy these conversations, we love when you leave us a rating wherever you listen. And to learn more about us, visit www.chicagographicdesign.club. Thank you.