Christian Solorzano [00:05]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club dedicated to bringing you conversations with Chicago's creative leaders. On this podcast, we'll explore the craft, theory, and practice of graphic design, plus discuss bold ideas that push the boundaries of what's possible and ways in which we can create a more thoughtful and inclusive community. To learn more about us, visit our website at www.chicagographicdesign.club or find us on social media. Special thanks to the Chicago band Eighties Slang for our theme music.

Hello, today I'm your host, Christian Solorzano, and I'm thrilled to be speaking with David Sieren, someone who plays a huge role in Chicago's design community. In 2002, he graduated from RISD with a BFA in graphic design, and over the past 2 decades, he's been an educator at DePaul University, Sputnik Press, the Chicago Portfolio School.

He's been co-president of AIGA Chicago, co-founder of the creative collaborative the Post Family, and his work has been recognized by Communication Arts, Print Magazine, AIGA, Society of Typographic Arts, New York Times, and the list goes on. Today, he's a Managing Director and Partner at one Design Company, leading teams focused on creating powerful experiences rooted in research, design, and strategy. And last year, in 2022, we toured one Design, so I'm very happy to once again be doing something together through this podcast. So welcome, David.

I'm very happy to be speaking with you. How are you?

David Sieren [02:01]

I'm good. Thanks for having me, Christian. I'm excited.

Christian Solorzano [02:04]

So I want to start off our conversation with the number one question that I have for you, which is when the words Chicago and design come to mind, what do you think of? What do those 2 words mean to you?

David Sieren [02:19]

Sure. I guess I think of a, in my experience, a pretty unique collaborative sharing community. And I think that is the thing that has kept me in the city. It's the thing that inspires me about the community in Chicago and what we're doing from a design standpoint. And it's, to me, it just feels like a very unique space, a very unique I don't think there's a style.

I don't necessarily think there's an approach, but I do think there's a hardworking, very collaborative, very open, and very supportive community in the city. And that's the thing that kept me here since day one.

Christian Solorzano [03:01]

Yeah, and you've certainly played a huge role in keeping that alive throughout the years. So could you tell us a little bit about your relationship with Chicago? Where are you from, and how did you— what led you to being in the city?

David Sieren [03:17]

Sure. So I'm from Milwaukee. I grew up kind of immersed in design. My dad was a designer, my mom was a painter. Dad had a studio. So I grew up seeing design, art, and the privilege of growing up and being kind of immersed and surrounded by design and art. And, growing up in Milwaukee, we would all, often take trips down to Chicago, whether it was for school or my parents.

We go to museums, you go to Michigan Avenue, you do all of that sort of thing you typically do as an out-of-towner coming in. So when I went to— but when I went to school and then came back in about 2002, came back to Milwaukee for a little bit, that's where I had my first real official job in graphic design.

And my now wife and I made a decision to move in together, and we kind of, we didn't want to move to one of the coasts, even though I think we had both had ambitions to either go to New York or maybe San Francisco. But we thought, okay, we're gonna do this and have a stepping stone in our relationship. Maybe we try this out a little bit closer to home. In case something doesn't work out. I don't know if I should say that.

But, and we just, we both, she was teaching in Milwaukee. I was at this design studio called Jack White Design at the time. And we both decided Chicago was the place to go. So we, quite honestly left our jobs and I went freelance and she, we took a trip down to Chicago. She got a job on the first day. In a gallery, and we moved into Ravenswood, and I freelanced for about a year. And that was really my first real introduction to Chicago.

So, if I go back to the thing I was saying, when you're visiting from Milwaukee and you do all the touristy things, even the museum things are kind of touristy, you don't really get a sense for the neighborhoods all around Chicago. You don't get a sense for what's happening outside of the Loop. And we were hooked and we, found our way here. And there's much more to tell about why we decided to stay. But, honestly, we never left.

And we— it was 2003 or 2004 that we made that move and kind of transported our lives down here.

Christian Solorzano [05:46]

So I didn't know that your father was a designer and your mother a painter, you said, right?

David Sieren [05:52]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [05:52]

So what was some of that paraphernalia that you grew up around? What were some of those— what was in the house?

David Sieren [05:59]

So my parents were massive book collectors, which I continue to be. My mom, they had really interesting artwork on the walls, but not a ton. My mom didn't put a ton of her work up. She's an abstract expressionist painter. Dad certainly didn't put, design work up. Well, I guess there were a couple interesting, posters up on the wall, not his own work, but it was more in his studio where I was really surrounded by design and design methods and design crafts.

So he was an industrial designer by training. And, his studio was— he had 2 spaces while I was growing up. One was right across the street, and then he moved to a place that was maybe 4 blocks away. So we would do everything there. I mean, everything from, carving Halloween pumpkins to making dioramas. And it was really interesting. When you are in first grade and/or kindergarten and you get that diorama assignment and everybody is doing, opening up a shoebox and doing that sort of thing.

Dad being an industrial designer was teaching me how to cut and score cardboard with an X-Acto knife and how to use hot glue and foam core. And it was, it was awesome. And then we would— so you'd walk in with these really kind of elaborate dioramas constructed from scratch. And, I learned a lot through that. And we would go to the studio Saturdays and Sunday mornings, and we would make, costumes that I would wear throughout the day, again, out of cardboard and everything.

But so that was cool. I mean, that was like the earliest thing I really remember. And it was always— they were always making, they're always creating something. And I think that influenced me a ton. In the, graphic design sense, I was around his team, which was like, it was 13 people.

It was a decent-sized studio and everything from, at the time stock photos would come in books that came in the mail and they would have these subscriptions, Communication Arts, and they were all a part of AIGA at the time. And I remember when they got— they were very early digital adopters. So, they were a Mac based studio too, but then there was still this huge amount of analog design craft involved in what they were doing.

I mean, Letraset was everywhere and I don't know, it was cool. It was a very interesting— looking back on it was a very interesting hybrid time where again, there was still so much handmade making going on. But at the same time, in my mind, all of these cool young designers, artists were doing amazing things on these black and white Macs. And it was cool to see. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [08:53]

And was there, was there a moment where it clicked in your head that this was what you wanted to do?

David Sieren [08:58]

I didn't want to do graphic design. I really didn't. In fact, I didn't even— when I went to school, it was for photography.

Christian Solorzano [09:09]

I—

David Sieren [09:09]

There was a moment when I asked my dad. So he did, they had their own work up on their walls in the studio, and they would have these boards of various logos they did or posters or whatever. And I remember being, maybe early, maybe 10, 11 or something. And I was in the studio and I asked Dad, so what did you do? Which one of these did you make?

And I remember him saying, well, he didn't make these, like this creative director did this or this design team did this. And it kind of broke my heart. I didn't understand. I was like, oh, I thought, this person who grew up making things with me and teaching me how to make things, teaching me how to craft and, kind of set type early on, he wasn't making anymore.

Now I know what he was doing was running a studio and making it operate and getting new business and leading client relationships. But I felt I was— I just did not— it disillusioned me to see that. To graphic design as a craft. And I just remember thinking, well, that's— I don't want to do that. I have no desire to ever do that.

So it wasn't until much— well, there was a moment in college when I decided to major in it. But yeah, it wasn't his work that made me want to do graphic design. I do remember, maybe late middle school, early high school, we would take the bus, took a city bus back and forth to school, and there was a stop on Water and Wisconsin Avenue in Milwaukee, and there was this bookstore in this beautiful iron block building called Schwartz Bookstore. It's no longer there.

I think it's turned into a place called Boswell, but it's no longer in that corner of Milwaukee. Anyway, you'd inevitably wait 15 minutes for the next bus when we'd get off to transfer. And we went in and they had a huge magazine section. And I, at the time, looking back on it, I didn't realize I was looking at David Carson's work, but I was really drawn to Ray Gun magazine. And I just remember thinking, oh, if this is graphic design, this is really cool.

And that was the era where it was, late '90s, early 2000s, very experimental magazine from a layout standpoint. And, being a kid into music, well aware of like at the time Rolling Stone and Spin magazine, but this was totally fresh and it was super interesting. And that kind of drew me in. That made me think that was really an interesting thing to do. I think Carson's work reminds me a lot of my mom's work as a painter.

It's very loose, very gestural, very collage printmaking aesthetic and sensibility, not graphic design in a formal sense at all. And that I found that really interesting, really exciting. And I also at the time there was this really interesting electronic music scene in Milwaukee that again, like not knowing who these folks were at the time, you look back on it, Cody Hudson was doing work for this thing called Drop Bass Network that was in Milwaukee.

And there's a whole graphic design vibe around what they were doing from the records, the record stores, to the parties. And it's funny, Nick Adam of Span and I have talked about this a little bit. I think we were both really intrigued and involved in that community at the time, and it had a massive influence on me in terms of thinking about visual culture, graphic design, what that did, what that represented. So that was the thing that kind of leaned me back towards graphic design.

Christian Solorzano [12:54]

Yeah. I like that because I do, when you were mentioning Ray Gun and David Carson, I think that type of graphic design had an attitude and it wasn't just solely, its intention wasn't solely for profits, but it was almost as this catalyst for conversation and like new ideas without like a hard purpose of, these are the outcomes that we want when we're producing these things. So I like that. And so—

David Sieren [13:23]

A lot of work looks like that. I mean, not to like just interject, but I've so, it's interesting when I see something that you do for Chicago Graphic Design Club, it seems hugely influenced by that sort of, it's interesting. I don't know if I would call it graphic design or design. It feels much more like it's using the medium and the forms of design in an expressive way, which is somewhat different.

Christian Solorzano [13:49]

Yeah, well, I am inspired by a lot of music. A lot of electronic music, and I just love the risks that graphic design sometimes takes. And I think the graphic design, for me, it's a space where I could break all the rules that I'm not allowed to do in my job. So that's why you always see me combining different typefaces that would never be allowed to like go together.

So it's fun, and I And yeah, thank you for the compliment, and I'm glad you're noticing that because that's certainly something that I strive for. Even the name Underscore is a huge tribute to the band Underworld, the electronic duo. So yeah, there's a lot of—

David Sieren [14:38]

Cool. That whole era of like Tomato.

Christian Solorzano [14:41]

I remember thinking, yeah, exactly.

David Sieren [14:43]

I don't know what happened to that group, but like to have music that at the time was so interesting and forward-thinking. And I mean, we're talking about Chicago, so now we're talking about a group out of Scotland, but that has a huge debt to the house music scene in Chicago. And then you have a layer of graphic design and then the videos that they were doing. It was fascinating.

It felt like all like one collective that was just making work, pushing boundaries, having conversation with audiences around the globe. It was super exciting.

Christian Solorzano [15:14]

Yeah, I love it. And we've actually— so Tomato's on our list of people that we want to invite, and we've reached out to them, but we haven't heard back. So we'll continue to do so because I'm a huge fan of their work. And I also think that some of that provocative graphic design, I think it respects the audience because it's sometimes making the audience work to understand what it's trying to communicate.

Things aren't always just so simple and straightforward. The typography sort of like forces you to like sometimes flip the page or to like get really close to it and like figure out what it's trying to say so you can like decipher it. So I like it because I think sometimes in the work that we do professionally, it's so safe and it's so dumb-proof, which I think is great.

I think we should make products accessible, but I think there's also a time and place for making things be a little bit more challenging and sort of having that dialogue with the audience where you're not just giving them something so directly and saying like, this is what it says, but you're sort of making them work for it. So I've always really admired that.

And the Design Club has in the past, there's been some posts that since then we've deleted because we were really trying to play with like vibrating colors. And some things you just can't do on screen?

David Sieren [16:44]

Sure. Well, I mean, it's, vibrating colors, contrast. It really comes down to, what's the intent? What is— how accessible do you want something to be? And you're speaking to and building a broad community. Design Club is doing is meant to be inclusive, meant to draw— it seems at least my impression.

Yeah, no, that's inclusive and draw people in, which is different than, maybe in a obscure concert flyer that is, I don't know, intended to not necessarily be the clearest piece of communication, but put across some sort of vibe or aesthetic for a niche audience. And I think those are, questions, conversations that we should all be having right now. Who are we speaking to? And are we making sure we're connecting in the right way and allowing people to connect? I'm going off on a tangent.

Christian Solorzano [17:38]

Yeah, no, I totally, I totally get what you're saying. So I want to know about so today you are your partner at one Design and you're doing a lot of what I'm assuming just business development, leading teams. What are you still— do you still find yourself in the position where you're actually like making things, or how do you— how are you continuing to practice your craft today? I see you do a lot of photography on your Instagram. I see a lot of that.

But I'm just curious about what mediums are you exploring today, or what kind of work are you making?

David Sieren [18:16]

Sure. I think, I mean, part of my focus at the studio is making sure that people have the tools and the spaces to do the work they need to do. And sometimes that means doing all of the things you just mentioned, working with— I've got, we've got an amazing team of designers, writers, strategists, and developers, and also amazing team of folks focused on accounts and operations and the people side of the business and HR. And, it's a big group of us that pushes everything forward.

But, sometimes you step in over here and you're focused on, like you said, business or process and making sure everybody has— understands what the point of view of the studio is from a process standpoint.

There are still times where, last week there were a few of us working on a project for a beverage company, and, in terms of getting hands in the work, we're cutting things out, we're playing with type, we're playing with hierarchy, we're, I'm still opening up Illustrator files or Figma and playing around and trying some things and seeing how they shake out. But I also don't wanna take sort of the power and the point of view away from the other designers who are leading the work.

So it's a delicate balance, and I think really making sure people feel empowered. I, I'm sure many folks have had the experience of working with a director at a studio who sits down, takes the mouse away, and like does something and like changes the work you're doing. And I, remember every time that happened. Learned a lot through doing it, but also didn't— it can leave interesting scars on you as a designer.

From a confidence standpoint. So, and I think it's a push and pull, but we try to not really do that at the studio, but we try to have it be much more of a collaboration. That is the root of your question though, what kind of work am I still making? I do, going back to My early love of photography, still try to practice that.

I went back to teaching recently after taking a year off, and I, teaching a type fundamental class right now, because that helps me stay in touch with this thing that I love about graphic design, which is communication typography and that whole art skill and craft. So that keeps me in touch.

And then also, if I'm not making something actively at the studio, I'm making things with my daughter, my wife, and really, in particular, I want my daughter to see what's interesting about a career in the arts and what's empowering about being able to make the things you think of. And it's silly, but we're working on a— she wants to write a long-form book.

Or novel, and I'm working with her, and we're just, I'm showing her in InDesign how to set up page styles and type styles, and she's writing it, and I'm typesetting it, and she's playing the art director role, and she's telling me what sort of typography she wants. And I'm in turn, I'm teaching her about serif, sans-serif typography, and, em dashes and ampersands. She's 7 and a half, but she's kind of like retaining some of it, and it's awesome.

It's not the most expressive design, but it's also like getting into the weeds and we're designing a book together. It's really cool.

Christian Solorzano [21:47]

That is really cool. I love that. And I, and I see, I think that you, the other day you posted, you had, you guys were looking at some proofs, like some print proofs of like a layout or something. And I was like, that's really cool.

David Sieren [22:00]

Well, she wanted to know, she, there are these little questions that you realize, nobody actually knows these unless you've gone through a process design and making, and she wanted to know, how to have the book have a certain texture. And then all of a sudden you're saying to a 7-year-old, well, that's called a spot garnish, that's called a spot varnish, and we design the book later after we know how thick the book is.

And but you still want to do the arc for the front and the back, and you're teaching these, almost the lessons you learn in an internship.

To a kid, and it's a lot of fun. And then she wanted to know, what's a crop mark? And then we had a whole conversation around, and it kind of felt like Carson, like David Carson would leave the crop marks on. I was like, I love how this looks. And, I think she's assimilating some of it, absorbing some of it, but she's certainly rounded, which will be cool for her when she gets older. I don't know, maybe she'll hate design like I did.

Christian Solorzano [22:58]

No, that's awesome. I love that. So I want to, I want to transition to a question that so you've done a lot of stuff for the community over many years. And something I'm always curious about hearing from people is, what do you think are the ingredients that make up a strong design community?

David Sieren [23:23]

I think, I mean, I would talk about, I think, the ingredients that make up Chicago's strong design community. But I think that's all I can really speak to.

But for me, I've heard people talk about other cities with maybe more competitive design communities. I think the thing that has made Chicago strong is the folks who are willing to support and open their doors and ask questions. One of my— one of the other members of the Post family and a dear friend of mine, Chad Corey. I remember one of the things he said early on to the rest of us in the group.

We were talking about who might we want to talk to as designers, and Chad was always fearless, and he continues to be fearless. He's like, if there's someone you want to talk to, just reach out, send them an email or call them. These people that we hold on high pedestals, a lot of them are just very accessible and want to share what they know and want to teach and want to impart knowledge.

And he's made his whole sort of artistic practice and career based on that, based on that idea, just like connecting with people. And that spirit, I think, I've never not seen it in Chicago. The idea that you've got people doing really interesting, amazing, edgy, or thoughtful things, and so much of Chicago's design community seems to have an open door. And, I remember Rick Valicenti was one of these people early on where, he's an individual you read about in the— in certain graphic design history books. Books.

And he, as a figure, seemed untouchable. But then you shoot him a note and he takes you into what was their studio at the time, and he'd walk you through his process and posters and prints and just be completely open door to describing what it is he did, they did, his studio did. And that was awesome. And I think there still is that experience where People want to invite folks in. People want to share. People don't want to protect and sort of hold close.

They want to have dialogue, and they want to teach, and they also want to learn from each other. And to me, that is this— I don't know, it's kind of like a humble, and it's a humble vibe. It's a strong work ethic, and it's just a general excitement. For the things people are doing.

And I think that is like this pervasive attitude that I don't think has ever gone away as long as I've been in Chicago, even though the community has certainly shifted dramatically over the years. But I think that thread is always there, and I think that seems to be the thing that pulls people in and makes them excited about Chicago. I remember when Tanner moved here from the West. I forget which state. He was in.

But I remember the first show Tanner did when the Design Museum was sort of a traveling exhibit, and it was just the overall sense was great. Here's a new person in the city that wants to do some things, and everybody just sort of rallied around and embraced. And I hope that Chicago still feels that way to people who are either— who are coming into the community, whatever that means. Whether they're from a different city or other walks of life within Chicago in general.

I hope that we continue to keep that sort of— continue to keep and grow and evolve our level of inclusivity, because I do think in a lot of ways— I feel like I'm rambling a little bit, but I feel like the sort of exclusive club vibe that can be prevalent in any profession, but definitely in the design field. I think we're getting better and moving away from that, and being really cognizant of being sure people feel welcome.

Christian Solorzano [27:43]

Yeah. One of the, one of the overly ambitious goals that the Design Club has is we wanna— I think Chicago has a very rich history when it comes to design, and that's a fact. And when I'm— when I speak with people that are outside of Chicago that don't live here, I don't think that always comes across. I think there's a bit of like, it's difficult to like understand, or it doesn't come across as like easily as like, yeah, Chicago is like a hub of creativity.

And I think one of the things that I really like to do, and I think about all the time, is how could we work together as a community to have Chicago have a bigger place in the map of not just the country but the world? How could we make people like want to move here because they know that we have all of these things?

And that's just something that I don't think I've— I don't have an answer to, but it's something that I think about all the time. And I think a big part of it, to your point, is it just goes back to the people that are here. And I think there are a lot of people that just have like their arms wide open, just ready to like embrace other people and to welcome them and to share what they know.

But I want to go back to some of what you were saying about Chicago being unique in certain aspects. Why do you think that is? Do you think Chicago is— do you think it has something to do with the geography and the way and the fact that, where we're located? Do you think that plays a role in how this community operates or exists?

David Sieren [29:33]

I don't— I mean, going back to your comment about making Chicago Making sure it has a place on the international design map. I think one of the things we don't do as— this is such a broad generalization, but I mean, I— we— there's not a lot of standing up, chest thumping, shouting about the work we make, and, screaming it from the mountaintop.

Christian Solorzano [30:04]

There—

David Sieren [30:05]

I, again, I think that goes back to a little bit of reserve, a little bit of a humble attitude, even in the best or most progressive or most interesting work happening in the city at any time. It's kind of quiet. And I don't know if it's geography, or maybe it's that— I think there's a very specific thing you think about if you're going to go to New York and compete and work in that field.

And or the same thing in San Francisco or in LA or, maybe at some point Minneapolis, right? I don't, I don't know what it is about Chicago, but maybe it's partially that there isn't this reputation broadly that you're going to come into this community and you're going to do this sort of work or that sort of work or have to compete sort of way or that sort of way.

And it's kind of this nice discovery that there is, there's a design, there's an art, there's tremendous music, there's great advertising, there's great architecture. Just design community in general. And maybe the fact that it's a little bit under the radar draws certain people in, surprises you when you see it, but then you embrace that side of it. You don't— it's— I don't know. I don't have an answer to that. It's just sort of this— you hear a lot of people say, well, it's a Midwestern city.

It's got that Midwestern work ethic. I don't know what that necessarily means because I think all of the other communities, all the other cities we're talking about, People work incredibly hard. People don't not dig in and focus on their craft or their concept. So I don't know if the quote unquote Midwestern work ethic is a thing. I just think there's a humbleness here.

And I think for me, that combined with people who are passionate about what they do and open to learning, wanting to learn and teach each other, creates a certain, a certain a certain vibe.

Christian Solorzano [32:03]

Yeah. Yeah. I like that you like the whole working class, or just like the work ethic. I think when I think of that humility, I see it parallel to like just a blue-collar mentality of, at least, at least when I'm working at my day job, I've noticed that there's like our teams all across the country are great.

But there's something about the Chicago team that always stands out, and that is that, well, for one, and this is just me speaking from my peers, is that some of us come from that blue-collar background where we were raised in that fashion of work hard, and that's what you do. So I don't know if that has something to do with it. I also a part of me also thinks that the winter plays a role because winters are sort of like toughing you up, I think.

And it makes you all, I don't know, a little bit more resilient to things, I guess.

David Sieren [33:09]

I don't know. It's gotta buckle down for 6 months of the year and yeah, and then celebrate when that winter goes away. I, yeah, I don't know. I would say that, it's a— I think it's an honor and an extreme privilege to be able to be in this profession, like to be able to bake, create, learn the things we do. It certainly is a, it is a privilege, and I want to see more people get into this profession. But it's also very difficult.

I think it's a very extremely difficult field to be in because we are working for clients. We're constantly getting feedback. We're constantly putting ideas out there. We're laboring over our craft, whatever that craft is. And then we're shifting and pivoting and changing. And, it's— and then at the same time, for all we are asked to do in terms of being pragmatic, and focused on the user and making sure our work is solving business challenges.

We're also asked to put our heart and soul into the work and put emotion into the work in certain instances. And again, that's really difficult. So partially what I love about Chicago, and I layer on top of all of that a supportive community, and that's awesome. Because why wouldn't we want that to help each other learn and grow and navigate and learn to navigate the challenges of this profession? Having a community that supports each other in that endeavor is pretty great.

Christian Solorzano [34:55]

Yeah, I agree. So I like that you meant— I like that you brought up that our profession could at times be chaotic. And I always, I always think that sometimes designers are— or I think one of our superpowers is that we tend to sometimes be like, we're just sensitive people. We're easily attuned to what's around us. And I think that's why we're good at what we do, is because we could pick up on the little things that, visually, make a really big difference.

So my question for you is, in a world that at times just feels so chaotic and polarized, how do you— where do you draw hope from?

David Sieren [35:41]

I think there's so many ways to answer that. I do think that I have, having seen people, I think that everything we do in— well, everything that we do as humans, but Even, but in this profession too, is about connections, and it's about relationships, and it's about building those connections and understanding each other at whatever level that is, whether it's, peers, friends, colleagues, clients. And I do, we're in a changed virtual world.

You and I are sitting here talking on Zoom right now, but I do feel like people want to make those in-person connections again. And Matt Hoffman, he recently had an opening at his you Are Beautiful headquarters, and it was so great to see people come out and people were talking and pushing each other and challenging each other and making new connections. And I personally like in this moment right now, that desire for people to be back together Get a lot of hope from that.

And I also, so that's on one standpoint, I think something that is just great to see again, people to be back in person. I also think that from a design standpoint, there's a lot that is wrong in the world. There's a lot that needs fixing, but there's an open and active, there are open and active conversations.

And efforts to change things and experiment and figure out how we can make things, how we can look at sort of the privilege and the power we have as designers and use that for designing and creating the world we want to live in around us. And for as slow as progress can seem at times, I think the fact that there's an ever-broadening awareness of the power and the potential for design to help, as well as an awareness of how design can hurt.

Those are, the concept of ethics and responsibility and accessibility that it's so forefront in so many designers' minds right now is wonderful because it's just, it's no longer becoming this, becoming a series of initiatives. It's becoming the way we act and think and create and make. That's hugely helpful because it just becomes a part of an ever-maturing practice. And that, I think, paves the way to a stronger community, stronger sense of responsibility in the future.

Christian Solorzano [38:39]

And have you— and I'm sure your answer is going to be, is going to be yes, but I'm very interested in understanding how the past 3 years now with the pandemic, how that shifted your point of view on design. And perhaps because I think for some designers, design is such an interwoven discipline that it's just, it's our life and it's what we think about and it's how we perceive the world.

So how has the last 3 years or so now Shifted the way that shifted the relationship between design and like your personal life?

David Sieren [39:27]

Oh, so I mean, yeah, I guess really specifically, I think specifically talking about design and personal life, working in the space I'm sitting in right now for 2 and a half years, not really going back into the studio and conducting everything on Zoom. I'm sure, like a lot of people, there are great pros to working remote. There are also great cons, because when do you actually shut off? And I do think, Christian, I'm— I definitely fall into the camp you just described.

The things I'm interested in are— it's graphic design, and I'm, not a musician. I don't— the thing that— that's my hobby as well as the thing I do professionally, and the thing— and I— the thing I love. So it's not like there's ever a complete off switch. But at the same time, you realize there need to be boundaries between your professional job and your personal life.

And that was, for me, that was really hard throughout the pandemic, working remote, working across different time zones to make space for that. So, I think one of the things that, to be totally honest, in the past few months, I've tried to get much better at is putting up limitations around when you switch from one design mode to dad mode to teacher mode to husband mode to friend mode, and making sure that there's time carved out to make those switches.

I mean, I would say there was a moment where I realized, man, I'm in this room very late every day, and I'm kind of missing these moments with my daughter and realizing, oh, that's in my power to figure out where to draw that line. And that means having a different relationship with working remote and being plugged into Zoom constantly. I don't know if that answers your question.

Christian Solorzano [41:22]

Yeah, no, it does. Because I think that's something that many of us probably struggle with is like the boundary becomes so blurred where you no longer know like you, like you said, like which mode you're in. And I think it's, and from my experience, like it could become very debilitating when you, when you don't know like when to take the hat off, put on the other hats.

So yeah, I think for me it's just ongoing practice. I don't think there's like a hard answer of this is how it's done. I think it's gonna shift day to day, and I don't know. But yeah, it's something that I'm always trying to sort of deal with in my mind is that balance.

So I wanna talk a little bit about design culture. I think design shapes culture and also culture shapes design, and it's this ongoing two-way conversation between the two. And I sometimes feel like in our discipline, in our profession, the culture could sometimes be overtly toxic, but in a way that seems like it's positive, or like this, idea of, toxic positivity, where we just have— we're faced with this endless feed of just nonstop, pressure to create and to make because, we're connected to our devices.

And I think social media plays a huge role in culture and trends and all that stuff. So I want to hear from you on that relationship between design and culture and culture and design and what that means to you.

David Sieren [43:27]

I, this is, this is a, for some reason, a hard one for me to answer. Because I know, everything you just said, design shapes culture. Yeah, I mean, 100%. I think design can reflect and express culture.

And I think that, there are so many ways to define design, or many ways to define graphic design. And I— but I think, even going back to our conversation around design and music culture, that's a very different mode of design than, let's say, creating an app that's gonna serve millions of people. And making sure that design is doing its job to draw in, clarify, make something functional, etc. I don't know.

This is a very vague answer, Christian, but I just feel like at any given moment of time when we're thinking about what's important in society, and when we're, right now thinking about what design can do to either draw in and support or repel in all the ways you can define that. Design for me is this reflection of the things we're thinking about and the things we hold societally as values, and that sort of drives what it is we're doing.

I think that's a non-answer, but I don't know how else I'd answer that.

Christian Solorzano [45:00]

No, I like that answer, and it reminds me of— so we had Nick Adam as a guest a few months ago, and one of the things that really stood out to me that he, that he writes on his website is that he looks at the role of a designer as someone that mirrors truth and is that reflection. And I think that sort of correlates with what you're saying right now is that design essentially is this mirror that's just reflecting what it's looking at and vice versa.

David Sieren [45:33]

So there's this thing that we say and believe in very deeply when we're working with a client at the studio and whenever we're talking about brand in particular, we're— the way I would think about brand is we get a lot of people coming to us and say, I want branding and I want a logo. And, I think so many of the folks listening to this, you, we all know that that's not, really what brand is. And part of brand is, it's truth, right?

Christian Solorzano [46:03]

Yeah.

David Sieren [46:03]

It's exactly what you just said, Nick says. It's what does it mean? What do you believe in? And how does that come to life? What is that? What is the experience of a brand? And then for me, visual design, or let's say even like service and experiential design, is a reflection of something that is true at its core.

And I think that's the thing that, companies and individuals and communities and what all of those things that can fall into this concept of brand need to figure out. And if you are really, if you're a designer, if you're a graphic designer and you're trying to express something and you want it to resonate and you want it to connect and you want it to really solve whatever challenge it is you're solving, it has to be a reflection of that truth.

And I think that's a beautiful way of thinking about it. Yeah. We're not, we're not in the job of putting pretty veneers on top of things. We're in the job of making sure that what we see and feel visually is again an expression. It's a reflection.

And when we're doing that well, when we're doing that right, and we're making decisions in service of that, that's when really interesting, powerful work that has emotion and heart and soul comes out, because it feels like it's part of the emotion, heart, and soul of whoever it is we're working with or working for to apply our skills as graphic designers to.

Christian Solorzano [47:27]

Yeah, definitely. And is there anything in particular that you see happening today in design, whether it's design studios or other designers, that's just really, that's really keeping you inspired and excited? Any studios or just anything in general that you feel like is, doing things really well?

David Sieren [47:49]

I mean, I think inspired and excited for me, there are a couple of ways to think about this. I am not to say this to you on this podcast, but to say it like, I'm really interested to see what people are doing to self-organize and create new communities and create communities that are relevant to your— would you even call Chicago Graphic Design Club, would you call it membership? No. I mean, it's a group and you're just having important conversations around what's relevant in design right now.

That's great. I find that super inspiring. I find, going back to, I think, questions about design history, I think questions about design responsibility and power, inclusivity and exclusivity. I think the fact that, again, those are top of mind and it's not just thinking about what is accessible design, to a broad audience, but it's going back to the root of the way we approach the things we do and the histories we've learned about the things that we do and reevaluating that. It's thrilling.

It's this huge pivot point in our profession. Maybe 4 or 5 years ago, there were so many conversations around how do we— what does it mean to be a designer? What does it mean to practice this craft or move into research, or, I'll stop listing all the ways you can define design. But I think layered on top of that right now, the idea that we're fundamentally questioning the things that we have held true about this profession, it's awesome. Matt Wisinski's book, Design After Capitalism. Absolutely.

Those conversations are wonderful. To see. And I, and I just think the fact that we're all— I think many of us are attuned to those and thinking at that level, it's getting to a more critical evaluation of our field. And I think that's really exciting, and it's about time.

Christian Solorzano [49:51]

Yeah, I really enjoyed his book, and I, and I like that throughout the book he has these anecdotes of like the book feels very punk rock, like it has attitude. But it also feels academic, and it just treads this boundary of academic and also just very rebellious. And it has this strong force, which I love to see.

And I think that's something that also really excites me, is that when you see even design history, some of it, I think, over the past couple of years is beginning to crumble. And because there's just parts of it that are excluding so much.

David Sieren [50:41]

Oh my God.

Christian Solorzano [50:42]

That played such a huge role in the work that we do today. And it's stuff that I never even knew about. So that keeps me excited, sort of relearning the basics or relearning what I thought was true and just putting it within a new context.

David Sieren [51:01]

So I think that was one of the— before I hit a pause on teaching, one of the last classes I taught at DePaul, and it was for 2 quarters as I was teaching Graphic Design History 1, and just realizing, huh, I'm teaching the things that I've learned over time, but also so much of it is rooted in that sort of Swiss modernist design education I received and grew up around, and realizing that, oh wow, there's like so much self-education I need to do to actually broaden my perspective.

And highly aware that was a need, but also realizing, you know what, I shouldn't be teaching graphic design history right now. I am absolutely the wrong person to be doing it because I need to educate myself a little bit more. More to be remotely prepared to have a voice that is encompassing essentially visual communication around the globe and thinking about exclusion and inclusion and appropriation and everything down the line. And I was so happy to— like, that was part of the reason why I stopped.

I was like, this is not my thing to teach right now. I need to learn a bit more. And I think that people— like, watching many people be receptive to that concept where it's time to reconsider. That's inspiring. That's because we're gonna, as a profession, find hopefully a new path, or we're gonna take a turn this way or that. And it's like, we don't know where it's going to go. That's really fascinating.

Christian Solorzano [52:37]

Yeah, I was teaching color theory last year, and Even just teaching color theory was, at times I felt a little bit uncomfortable telling students why this color theory is right and why red means this and why it should mean this. And yeah, it was, it was so odd because you sort of take these, take these things as like the gospel and this is the absolute truth and the only way to do this, even typography.

I think there's so many different ways to approach it and so many rules. I think that we just accept as reality. And typically when we break those rules, it leads to, in my opinion, more exciting work.

David Sieren [53:28]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Not always. And what's— and I think what's interesting based on what you just said is not only more exciting work, but the ability to embrace mistakes and learn as long as we're taking the risk and putting ourselves out there to try something new in the spirit of progress and change. Yeah, it's not always gonna be the right solution, but that's part of— again, that's what we do as designers.

Try something, experiment, prototype, test it, learn, go back to the drawing board. And it feels like we're in a moment where that is happening just on so many yeah, definitely.

Christian Solorzano [54:07]

So we're almost at time, but I want to ask you just a few more questions. And one of them is specific to our listeners. And our listeners range from— we have design leaders, students, practitioners, enthusiasts, you name it. And I want to know, as you being a design leader, Are there any call to actions for other design leaders, things that you, that you feel like design leaders should be doing more in our profession?

David Sieren [54:39]

I think, I think being able to really explain the value of what we do and the responsibility of design and the responsibility of written and visual communication and make sure that our clients, however we define that, for some of us those are corporate clients, for others those are, cultural institutions or each other, but to make sure that people understand the power, potential, and dangers, and also dangers of design and visual communication when we're not thinking about the things we should be thinking about in terms of clarity of message or accessibility.

And when we're thinking about the right audience, businesses to speak to, we have our jobs cut out for us to make sure that isn't just an insular conversation, but a conversation and a point of view and a perspective that we are sharing with those we're working for and making sure they value it at the same level. I can think of a few times recently where, and this is a very specific example, but conversations around, let's say, accessibility of a website.

With a client, and then the client has said something to the effect of, well, that's not really important to me. And that's— it's our job as design leaders on the front lines of making sure our work is valued for its strategy, for its power, for its impact, for its heart and soul, but also that lever. Sorry, lever is the wrong word. That lens, making sure that people understand it isn't trivial to think about how people engage with our design work.

It's hugely important, and we're at the front lines of making sure that this work reaches and connects with as many people as it's supposed to, and making sure people outside of our profession understand the thought of ethics, the thoughts of ethics, the thoughts of responsibility. We have and the work we do has. I think it's our job to make sure that that's an elevated conversation.

Christian Solorzano [56:52]

Yeah. And I guess on the other side of the spectrum, so we're talking about people like we're talking about design leaders. What about for younger folks that are perhaps fresher into their careers, that are perhaps still finding their voice or their visual language? What would you, what would you say to them?

David Sieren [57:13]

I would say seek out as many opportunities to learn from others as possible. And I think what's really interesting watching some of the old institutions like AIGA— I don't know if I'll say dissolve, but I just said dissolve. I don't really know. It's interesting to watch what happens there and then watch what you all are doing with your community. But the thing that was great for me about AIGA early on in my career was it was an open door to a lot of people.

And I don't think we need that formal infrastructure anymore. But I will say it made it certainly made it easy to meet and talk to people because it forced environments where you could do that. And then I also think, yeah. As I've said before, that's what I love about Chicago.

Christian Solorzano [58:06]

We—

David Sieren [58:07]

The community is an environment where people can connect. And, at the time when we were doing Post Family, that was a huge part of it, making sure people had a place to connect. I think as we've moved through the pandemic, as we're getting our feet wet and figuring out how much in-person versus remote we want to do, I do think it's made those connections both easier and more difficult to build.

So a colleague of mine at the studio, Bianca Smith and Nick Rissmeyer, and a host of other people they're working with have this thing on Slack called Distant Community. And I think that was very much our response to build connections in a pretty isolated world. I think that's wonderful.

And I think young designers need to seek out opportunities like that where you can make those connections, but then also reach out to the people you wanna talk to Reach out to your mentors, reach out to your peers and like learn, ask questions, try things and fail. I think the most dangerous thing you can do early on in your career is not seek out those learning opportunities.

Because it's the thing that inspires you. It's like reading a book. It's just like getting more knowledge, more experiences, more perspectives. Even if you don't agree with those perspectives, it's helpful to build up that experience and that exposure. And I think just, kind of be bold and fearless. It doesn't mean you have to be loud, but like go out and meet people and engage.

And I also think if people don't want to engage with you, if there's a design hero that does not want to share perspective, shame on them. I, and, you'll learn from the people who want to teach and work with you and find those people. As fast as you can.

Christian Solorzano [59:54]

Yeah, definitely. I like that answer. All right. So thank you so much. I want to ask you just one last question. It's not design related. What's keeping you inspired lately? Any movies, music? What are you— what sort of media are you consuming lately? I, when I was prepping for this, for this conversation, I found your— I think it was like your Bandcamp profile.

Oh, and I, and I noticed that you have quite a collection of— you have quite a collection of albums of bands and artists that are all new to me. So I think you're safe to say, music is a— it plays a big role in your life. So anything specific that you want to mention or any— anyone that you want to shout out?

David Sieren [60:41]

I so music is— I'm massively interested in music. I find it still fascinating that you can either stream or buy somebody's heart and soul and piece of artwork for, $10 to $20 to $30. I just, I love that concept. And, this, we shouldn't get into a whole conversation around making a living in the music industry. I won't go there. But what am I interested in? So one of the folks at the studio, Ted Flynn, just released a record of just beautiful instrumental post-rock.

Under the name Lost Lemming. I think it's great. And I just— I also love people close to me that are making music that I'm just oh, this is amazing. And it's been on heavy repeat for me. James Johnston, someone in our studio, he's a musician. He's got multiple bands, including Bumpus. And just to see like how much he focuses on keeping that part of what he does alive is really great. It's so inspiring. From like a music standpoint, what am I listening to right now?

I don't know. That's a part of this to edit out. I'm so bad at dropping like new things that I'm, that I'm really interested in. I'm going through like a quiet, staticky, droney phase.

And also like getting a little nostalgic for bands like Yola Tango, which their new record I absolutely love. And oh, there's a new Kylie Malone record, which is just a series of— it's like drones and organ music. And Lucy Railton, who's a cellist, I think out of Berlin, she's on it. I absolutely love that album. It's wonderful. It's wonderful.

Christian Solorzano [62:34]

Who was that? It was not Kylie Minogue, right?

David Sieren [62:37]

No, not Kylie. No, Kylie Malone. Yeah. Okay, nice.

Christian Solorzano [62:41]

I'm a fan of—

David Sieren [62:42]

But I also brought it— I deeply love pop music too. Yeah, I would not— not— I wouldn't hesitate to talk about Kylie Minogue.

Christian Solorzano [62:50]

No, she's been— I, I've always been a fan of hers, and I've been re— like, reacquainting myself with her music, and I think her early stuff is just fabulous. So great. Awesome. Well, this was such a great conversation. And I just want to mention that I'm very thankful that you took the time to do this. You've been a supporter of the club for some time now, and I look forward to hopefully doing more collaborations in the future.

And I also want to mention for anyone that's listening is you're very easy to get a hold of. So if anyone wants to reach out to you with any questions, what's the best way for them to do that?

David Sieren [63:31]

I would just shoot me an email, david@onedesigncompany.com, all spelled out, and completely open door. Would love to talk to anybody who wants to chat about design or Chicago or anything in between. Awesome.

Christian Solorzano [63:47]

Great. Well, thank you so much, David. This was a pleasure. And like I said, I look forward to keeping in touch.

David Sieren [63:54]

Christian, like I said, I love what you all are doing, building this new community. And again, making sure that the community is relevant and current. So love what y'all are doing.

Christian Solorzano [64:06]

Awesome. Thanks.