Christian Solorzano [00:00]

Hello, you are listening to Underscore, a show by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I am your host, Christian Solorzano, and today I share my conversation with Elaine Lopez, a designer and educator who currently teaches at Parsons and who spent the formative years of her design career here in Chicago.

Elaine takes us back to her first typography class at the University of Florida, a class so overwhelming that she had to take a long walk around campus afterwards, and she explains why that challenge is what hooked her into design. She tells the story of visiting friends in Chicago over Labor Day weekend and feeling at home for the first time in her life, and quitting her job in Miami the week the recession hits.

From there, she walks us through her agency work, field research at Gravity Tank, social impact work at Greater Good Studio, and her time working alongside Rick Valicenti and Thirst, helping Columbus, Indiana return to Paul Rand's original identity. Elaine speaks openly about identity and representation in design and why that led her to teaching. We also talk about printing and the case for slow and efficient work in the age of AI.

Building community in the classroom, and what she still carries with her, even though she's no longer based in Chicago. As always, if you enjoy conversations like these, I really appreciate your support when you leave us a rating wherever you listen. Thank you so much for tuning in. Enjoy the conversation. Welcome to Underscore. It's nice to finally be speaking with you after knowing about you and hearing from many others about you. So thank you for agreeing to be on our show.

And one of the, one of the rules of this show is that we tend to only focus on people that are based in Chicago, but you have a strong relationship and connection to Chicago. So yes, you're one of the few people that we make an exception for. So, thank you.

Elaine Lopez [02:08]

I'm honored. Yeah, no, I definitely earned my street cred in Chicago. I was there a really long time, so. I'm very happy to be, to be here and to be invited to speak.

Christian Solorzano [02:18]

So for the people that are that are just listening and aren't able to watch this recording, can you tell us where you're at and describe the space that you're in right now?

Elaine Lopez [02:29]

Yeah, I am in Brooklyn, New York, in my home office. And behind me, I have a lot of paper and riso ink tubes and books in a not very organized fashion, but that sort of speaks to my practice a bit. Riso is a big part of that, and that requires a lot of paper. And then also just a lot of books and references and things that I like to buy at book fairs, spend too much money on.

Christian Solorzano [02:54]

Do you have things that you can't live without? What do you keep at your desk or with you at all times?

Elaine Lopez [03:00]

Great question. I think my AirPods usually have to be here to some degree for podcast listening purposes and just any other audio. Some sort of beverage. We were speaking about that earlier, which I don't have right now. Sometimes it's espresso. I feel like I like to start my day with just a little shot of espresso, phone, notebook, and my second screen, which is very important, I think, very helpful.

Christian Solorzano [03:26]

What kind of notebook do you have?

Elaine Lopez [03:28]

Right now, it's funny. That's a funny question because I went to like this Adobe thing and they gave me this like free one that's actually pretty good quality, but I've been in the market for, I should get like a new one, but I'm like, why am I gonna spend money? They give all the away, all these free notebooks.

And actually for a while I was just using these like index cards and writing on them, but that was just then they were like loose everywhere and it was kind of a mess. And there was something nice about that, the disposability of notes. But I've been using this notebook lately and that's been pretty helpful.

Christian Solorzano [04:00]

And what do you write with? Is it a pen, marker? What color ink?

Elaine Lopez [04:05]

Today I, this is not a plug for Adobe, I swear. So you also came, it came with a nice pen, I'm gonna use it. But I really like this Kaweco. I don't know if I spelled that right. Kaweco Sport, which is like the really inky fountain pen. Yeah, that's, this is fun, but then I leave it open sometimes and it dries out. So then I have to close it again. So usually what I'm writing with these days.

Christian Solorzano [04:26]

I'm also a fountain pen enthusiast and I have the same pen that you have there, but mine isn't black.

Elaine Lopez [04:33]

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I think AOC like did something somewhere talking about pens and I got influenced by AOC to buy this specific pen at some point.

Christian Solorzano [04:43]

Yeah. But so speaking of influence, I was telling you right before we started recording that I fell victim to a water bottle ad on Instagram that is a smart water bottle. I'm not gonna mention the name, the brand, cuz it Promote them. But yeah, so do you, do you tend to find yourself like influenced by things? And if so, can you share with us your most guiltiest influence?

Elaine Lopez [05:11]

You're hitting the nail on the head here. Do you— I don't know if listeners of this show will remember the show Doug, but I think about the neighbor a lot who always had like weird gadgets. And I'm like a big fan of gadgets early adopting gadgets. So I'm surprised I don't have that water bottle you mentioned, but I have a vibrating plate that I sometimes use for stress relief and lymphatic drainage. That's very fun. I have like the light red light mask. That's fun.

Let's see what else. I mean, I, and I feel like I go through these things and then don't use them after a while, but those 2 I'm using regularly and I'm a big fan of. Yeah, like massage guns, like any gadget thing. I'm— I want it, I want to try it, I want to see if it works. Big fan of just like fun, weird technology.

Christian Solorzano [06:02]

There used to be a store at the mall called like— I think it was called Brookstone. Do you remember that store?

Elaine Lopez [06:09]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [06:09]

And they had like all those gadgets, like a gun for your leg that like massages it and all that.

Elaine Lopez [06:15]

Got one. Yeah. Yeah, I love gadgets. I don't know, I think they're fun. I actually, so I don't have that water bottle, but I do have a water bottle that fizzes water. So you just put the water and then you like press a button and it'll make sparkling water that you can like drink out of. But that was given to me.

I went to like a, that was like a giveaway and it doesn't work very well 'cause like you, it needs like, it has like some refillable thing you have to re-up. So once you run outta that, I was like, I'm not, I'd rather just buy SparklyWAP.

Christian Solorzano [06:45]

Was it a— was it an Adobe giveaway?

Elaine Lopez [06:48]

No. That'd be cool though. They wouldn't— they could afford that probably. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [06:56]

Yeah. When it comes to Adobe, I have this I don't know, weird relationship with them because I appreciate their software. I am an InDesign obsessor, but at the same time, I just don't like Adobe at the same time. So it's like, I don't know, I've been to a few of their conferences that like the Adobe MAX, and I always leave feeling like very disappointed.

Elaine Lopez [07:22]

Yeah. Have you, how do you compare that to like the AIGA conference? Or have you been to an AIGA conference? I guess is better for sure.

Christian Solorzano [07:30]

I don't think, I don't think I've been to an AIGA conference, but I think I'm probably one of those strange designers that really doesn't like conferences.

Elaine Lopez [07:40]

Yeah, that's fair. I don't think you're that strange. Many designers don't like conferences. They can be icky for sure. I hear you. I always like, you sign up and then especially if you're asked to speak at one, then it's like, or like you write something to get chosen to speak at one and then you're like, damn it. Like leading up to it, it's like, I hate this. Why?

Christian Solorzano [08:00]

Yeah.

Elaine Lopez [08:00]

Did I sign up to do this? And then you get there and you're like, all right, yeah, this is pretty cool? And afterwards you, you're grateful you did 'cause you end up meeting really cool people and it ends up being, fruitful. But there is this like trajectory, I think, with this attending to can be kind of like, eh, cuz then you don't really have any skin in the game. So you just like go for a little bit and be like, eh, I'll leave or whatever.

Or if it's really engaging, then I think you can get stuff out of it. But I feel like I, yeah, it's a good way to connect with people.

Christian Solorzano [08:29]

But yeah, I think with conferences, with conferences for me, it's, I love the speakers and everything about them. But then there's always this like pitfall that I experienced post-conference when you're like, you've learned all these amazing things. And then you don't, you feel like you don't have anywhere to like implement those things on. And I think that's the part that like always leaves me like really high. And then there's like this really low of— So.

Elaine Lopez [08:57]

You gotta let it cook for a while. I'll let that information simmer. But yeah, I hear you. It can be overwhelming. I think we try to do too much in so many things.

Christian Solorzano [09:07]

Yeah. But with that said, one of the questions that I always start these conversations off with is always regarding someone's introduction to graphic design. And I was reading an interview that you did in 2021 where you talked about taking your first typography class. And how it was, it was sort of, there was a moment of friction for you. So I'd love to have you maybe walk us through everything that led up to you having an interest in design and taking that class.

Elaine Lopez [09:43]

Yeah, I, so I think like many of us, I liked art in high school and, did all the different art things that were available, painting and whatever. I even took like AP Art. Which I think consisted of submitting some sort of portfolio. So when I got to the University of Florida, which is where I went for undergrad, which was chosen because I was living in the state of Florida and it was like a good state school that was free. And that's sort of relevant.

I'll talk, I can talk about that later with the difference between like a public state school and then private art and design schools, which I now know very intimately. But yeah, I just showed up and I remember the guidance counselor there being like, well, what do you wanna do? And I was like, I don't know, I like history, I like art. And they, if you wanna choose art and they recommend this, recommended this at the time was they had this like weed out course.

And I know that's like a negative term, but it really essentially is what it was. So for anyone interested in art, they recommended they take this course, which was a semester long and it was like 3 days a week, like 6 hours a day. It was very intense and it was sort of introducing people to like conceptual art right away, like piss Christ. It was just you can imagine, young students being like, whoa.

And that was sort of the point was sort of weed out the people that were like really hardcore about pursuing art. And we got to do projects and installations and sort of really like off-the-wall stuff, which was great. And at the end of that semester, the teachers recommended that I look into like graphic design.

And at that point I didn't really know what graphic design was, which also sounds crazy within the context of today, but I think back in 2003, graphic design really wasn't like as ubiquitous, especially not in high schools. Like there wasn't, computer labs were there, but it wasn't definitely not to the level that things are now. So I took, I signed up for a typography class, which was what was available that following semester.

And that class was like filled with like students the year ahead of me, right? So they were like really good. Some people who are designing now, actually another shout out to Chicago designer Jared Ryle, who worked at IDEO with VSA. He was in that class and Greg Kletzel, who I think is based in California now, all very talented, amazing designers, just period. And then to be thrown into that as like my introduction to design was very like overwhelming. I was like, what?

I don't even know what this is. I hate this. And up to that point, like all the other art classes, like painting, drawing, like all that stuff felt very familiar, but typography was like, whoa. And I remember having to take like a really long walk around the campus and be like, what am I doing? But I guess that's kind of what got me hooked was that there was something within the arts that was like challenging and kind of different and applicable.

And that, yeah, that's eventually I picked my major. I think you had to like submit a portfolio too to be admitted in the major after your sophomore year. And then you got your own desk in the room, in a room that you got to keep for like the 2, your junior and senior year at the University of Florida.

So that was sort of my introduction to design and I just like went all in. I was like president of the graphic design club by the end of it. And I just really, yeah. And I'm still friends with a lot of the people that— Went to school with. Back then it was a really tight community and a fun experience.

Christian Solorzano [12:51]

And as you were growing up in childhood, what were some of the things that you were into? Did you have any sense of this wanting, this being something that you wanted to do? Were you, a creative kid? Did you make things?

Elaine Lopez [13:07]

Yeah, I was always like doodling in my room, like watching music videos pretty much. So I just really loved, again, drawing, painting. My uncle is an artist and I remember even at a very young age, like visiting his house and studio and being like blown away. It was like paint everywhere and I was like, oh my God, I love this. And yeah, just kind of like always Liked making things.

And even like early on, I remember, I think it was like pre-K, like I drew an apple and the teacher was like, that's really good. I think my grandmother, when she passed away, she had it like saved amongst her belongings. It was this apple I drew at a very young age. So yeah, I've always been sort of a maker drawer and always like words and letters.

I think like I remember in my drawing it was always like sort of stream of consciousness, like Writing words and things like that.

Christian Solorzano [14:00]

And what about your arrival to Chicago? Talk to us about that.

Elaine Lopez [14:07]

Yeah, great story. Very important story, I would say, because it, Chicago really shaped me as a designer. I, yeah, like I said, I went to the University of Florida, like graduated and then realized like I didn't, I didn't have a job, I didn't have anything. So I had to move back home to Miami for a year and I hated it. I was so miserable. I did have a job.

I got a job at this like small design studio that did stuff for like local, they did like some high-end stuff, but like local car dealerships or like the Ritz-Carlton was one of their clients, which was, which led to like interesting photo shoots. But I was sort of miserable because I was like, man, I just had this awesome experience at college for 4 years and now I'm like back in my room and like there's a lot of driving in Miami.

So I had to like drive to work and I had to like work all day, get home, and it was just like not pleasant. And so over Labor Day weekend of that year, I went to visit friends who had just moved to Chicago, friends from college. And that trip changed my life. I, it was so weird 'cause I felt so at home in Chicago.

Like I've never, I actually have never had that sensation since, but I just like remember walking around being like, this is where I belong. Like this. This feels more like home than any other place has ever felt. And so, we just had a great time that weekend. And yeah, friends had moved there and then other friends had already been there. So there was like a little squad already forming of people.

And my friends who I was visiting, who I was staying with, like on the Cubs, they're like, yeah, just move here. Come, whatever. And I was like I'll think about it. I don't know. And so I went back home and went back to work and I was like, yeah, I can't do this. So I literally like put in my notice by the end of the week. And then the second week of that was when the recession happened.

It was like when the whole housing crisis thing like collapsed right before the election of Obama. And I was like, oh my God, what have I done? I've just like quit a job, in this moment of financial like chaos. But I was like, whatever, I'm gonna go for it. And I just moved to Chicago with like a big suitcase and lived on a couch for 6 months until I like found my own place. And yeah, was there pretty much like almost 10 years.

It was a very formative Time as a designer for me.

Christian Solorzano [16:15]

And what were some of the milestones that you were a part of or that you got a chance to experience during those 10 years?

Elaine Lopez [16:22]

Yeah, I mean, right away, and I remember saying this too at the time, so I moved like end of October, right away Obama gets elected. So I got to be in Grant Park for that. And that was just I was like, if this doesn't work out, at least I got to experience history. And I think to this day it was Still one of the most incredible moments where there were so many people, but everybody was so happy.

And I think outside of like a music festival, you don't really see like that many sober people congregating happy, peacefully. It was just such an incredible evening. And ironically, I was also Obama's neighbor at the time. And I'm not speaking, that's not hyperbole. Like I was living in Hyde Park and it was like my apartment building, a synagogue, Obama's house. So when I got home that night, like the Secret Service was like, you need to show ID.

And I was like, I don't, I don't have ID. I just got here. So I had to call my roommate and be like, come get me. 'Cause they blocked off like that whole street, which remained that way till he left. But I think, yeah, I got, I think that very next day too was like when I met with like Creative Circle, which is like a creative staffing agency.

And that next day they like got me a gig and I was like, yay, it's already, Obama's already doing. That's fair enough. And so, yeah, I started like freelancing and then eventually got a job at this place, Hill and Knowlton, which is like a PR, big PR agency doing PowerPoints. So many PowerPoints, which like honestly served me very well for the rest of my career cuz it's been mostly slides. And then that was like a temporary position.

And then got to work at Closer Look, which no longer exists either. My resume, like once you get old enough. All the companies you worked for like don't exist anymore. And that's something that happens. But Closer Look, which I also got through Creative Circle, was a pharmaceutical marketing agency, which can sound sort of dull, but it was like such a great group of people, many of which I'm also still friends with.

It was just such a vibe that office, the work was pharmaceutical marketing, but the culture at that place was sort of unmatched. Like they had happy hour every Friday and it was just like such a great time. Yeah. So that really allowed me to cut my teeth as a designer. And we actually designed apps like right when apps were being introduced. So that was really cool to work like designing apps in Photoshop. Like imagine that, that's how we used to do it.

And then after that, getting a job at Arc, which is part of Leo Burnett. So moving into point of purchase marketing on P&G. So I worked on Olay, which was also another great experience, like really getting to figure out photo shoots and, producing assets that required dye lines that were gonna be in retail that you would go to like Walgreens and there was the thing you made and that was really cool.

And then another big highlight of working there was that I was part of the team that helped to win Tide as like a new account, new business. So that was a really cool and grueling process to create the campaign for that. And they ended up moving over. I don't know if they still have them as a client, but that was really cool. And then after that, I'm sorry, now I'm just giving you my whole resume, but these are sort of big highlights, I would say.

After that, went and worked, like sort of left. I did a brief stint at Ogilvy, but then went over to Gravity Tank, which I would say was another major highlight. So really pivoting from point of purchase, marketing or retail stuff. To like human-centered design for innovation. And so I was able to bring in some of that like CPG experience by working, we worked on like SCJ and Samsung and things like that.

But Gravity Tank is, I don't know if you've had any Gravity Tankers on the show yet, but it was just such an incredible place. Like talk about culture too. I was just talking to someone recently about like, yeah, no other company like, has topped that way of working.

And it was like you would be on a project for 3 months with like a group of people and it'd be like a strategist, a researcher, and then depending on the type of design that the project required, whether that be interaction or sometimes culinary design and then communication design, and you would just like work as a team together in these like bays we called them that were like malleable and created with like these corkboard walls that were like all over the space.

And you would travel sometimes. Like I got to go to Mexico a bunch and Brazil and Bangkok, and you would do research like in the field. You would go into people's homes and see how they used objects and be able to talk to them and then come back and come up with prototypes. It was like a really cool making space with all sorts of tools. And that was epic. It was like a really great place, great people.

But like everything else, they experienced some layoffs that sort of really dampened the vibe of the place. 'Cause again, it was like a family and it was like so abrupt to have these people like go away suddenly. And then eventually they got bought by Salesforce. But before that, I had already jumped ship to work at Greater Good Studio to be the design, a design designer, design lead there.

I don't remember what my title was, but, and that was, this is the sort of arc of it during my time there was when Trump got elected and I was like, I can't keep doing this. I don't know, like there was something about working with social impact and then having that be the results of the election that like, I was like, I need, I need to take a step back. What do I wanna do with design? What am I, what am I doing here?

And that's what led me to grad school or even looking into grad schools, which took me out of Chicago sadly. But I didn't really wanna leave. I would've happily stayed there. It's just, yeah, I got the opportunity to go to RISD and I was like, well, I guess I have to do this now. Yeah.

And then that sort of changed my life in other awesome ways. But that was my time in Chicago, which I think is like super important. So formative to who I am as a designer. Very interesting to have that experience like here in the East Coast and to see the disconnect between the places is really weird and interesting. I'm like, there's like a whole other city over there that's like really great.

You guys like, there's not like a lot of dialogue between the two and it's very strange to me, but it is what it is.

Christian Solorzano [22:29]

I remember when I was in college, Greater Good Studio was like, to me, was one of the places that seemed like such an amazing place to work at. One, because the work that I was seeing come out of that place all seemed to be really beautiful, but most importantly, everything was tied to some kind of greater vision and greater good. And it seemed like the work that was being produced there wasn't just flashy, cool stuff. But it served some higher purpose.

And a big part of that, from my understanding, was all due to the research and the, and the co-designing with the people that the work was being for. So was that when your design practice started to evolve more into like the research side? Or can you talk to us about that transition from graphic design to researcher? Because I do believe that there Although, graphic design should have research in the process. Oftentimes it's just, making stylistic choices and that's it. Yeah.

Elaine Lopez [23:33]

Yeah. I would say actually that happened at Gravity Tank first because that was, again, human-centered design process. And that was sort of my introduction to research, especially that type of research was really like user-based and speaking to people and being able to work with researchers, just like sitting in and watching like a researcher like talk to somebody and really be able to get information out of them. It was just wow, this is, I really admired a lot of the folks I worked with there.

And a lot of those folks went to Greater Good too. So it was like a similar trajectory. But yeah, I think those experiences were really valuable, especially coming from, our Leo Burnett, like that, a place like that where you're sort of given the research or you're not really like engaging with that. They're just telling you like, hey, this is this demographic, they use this way. Like now make something versus like having to actually go into the field and like come up with the ideas.

And I think that was my intention with going from, I felt like point of purchase stuff. I was like, this is the end of the process. Like what does it mean to be like at the beginning of the process of making something? And so that very much felt that way at Gravity Tank and Greater Good, which was, I'd say Gravity Tank more because that was sort of innovation consulting and we were really like coming up with the ideas that then the companies would take.

And develop into products that would then probably eventually make it to the advertising people that have to like promote that product. Greater Good was a little bit different in that it was, you're working directly with nonprofits. And so I don't think that there wasn't as many resources to do such like involved research. So it really was just working directly with the communities or with the nonprofit that was, building whatever project.

But I think the work at the difference was that it was definitely more hands-on and work that was actually produced and like went out into the world where Gravity Tank, I think, you could send them a deck and some prototypes and then that work would maybe never see the light of day or you didn't know what happened to it. Where Greater Good, it was like, okay, we're gonna build a game for, this community in Colorado to learn about like alternative modes of education.

And we like built that game and then printed it and out it went.

Christian Solorzano [25:36]

Yeah. And can you share with us a story of your involvement or the work that you did for the for Columbus? Yeah.

Elaine Lopez [25:47]

And that was, that project was actually, to your question earlier, my transition towards an independent practice and towards applying that research. And so I met Rick Valicenti at an AIGA event that was hosted at Gravity Tank and just happened to sit next to him and the event I think was around gun violence in Chicago and it was really interesting and some colleagues were speaking on the panel.

And so he and I just started talking afterwards and ended up in the way that Rick, is amazing and does and just, I feel like is such a, just connects with everybody in the community and is so generous.

We connected and then ended up doing sort of an exchange where we went to Thirst at the time and visited their studio and they came over to Greater Good to see our studio and— I think through him like seeing that process, this project with Columbus, Indiana came up and at one point it was supposed to be a collaboration between the 2 studios, but then I ended up stepping away from Greater Good as I was like preparing to go to graduate school.

So I spent basically like the 6 months before I went to graduate school working with Thirst as a researcher on the Columbus, Indiana project. And for our listeners, that project was essentially—

Very cool project. And it was to bring back, it was to basically re— not rebrand Columbus, Indiana, but to re— let's say revisit the brand. But as some of you may know, like Paul Rand designed a brand for this city already that was incredible. And so the project actually became to convince the community to go back to this like iconic branding that Paul Rand had designed and to also like Modify it a little bit for, modern day.

So the different areas of that city and, wanted their own identity. And Columbus, Indiana is just such a unique and, design-forward place that I think, yeah, it was just such a dream to work on that project with Rick and Bud over at Thirst directly.

So yeah, we did a lot of really cool— we conducted research basically with the community, figured out ways to hear from folks and through that process learned from people like how important that original design was to them in growing up, like the Dancing Seas, I think is what that brand was called. And so by gathering that, those quotes and just made a really powerful case to like bring that back and they did. And it, I think it's all over, all over the place now.

And yeah, it was just a really cool project and great opportunity again to work with Thirst and a really good like landing pad or launch pad into like graduate school and that way of working. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [28:22]

Yeah. And when it came to, a project like that is so systems-oriented, can you talk a little bit about some of your main takeaways or learnings from, being able to design something that's going to be spatial and people are going to be experiencing at different scales and different levels, etc?

Elaine Lopez [28:44]

Yeah. Yeah. I think and I'm trying to think back to that project now. Yeah, there was like banners in the city and it was like sculptural pieces that ended up being made. And I think, I guess my takeaway was less that and more like just how important design was to this community.

Like we visited Paul Rand's archive at the community college and got to like, Bud and I just sat there for an afternoon and just like looked at like all of these like things with like notes on them and it was just, and then we got to talk to people that knew him and had worked with him, during that time. And I, there's like an interview somewhere where we like interviewed these 2 old guys. They were just like sharing stories. It was, it was really cool.

Just a really great experience. And to me, I think beyond like the spatial, or perhaps related to the spatial, was like how important design, that is spatial becomes to people's lives and it becomes part of their identity and part. Part of a place that they remember it fondly? When they think of their childhood. And some people who'd never left that community sort of assumed that like every city is that beautifully designed. I was like, no, you guys are like really lucky.

Like every place is not like this. But yeah, that was such a, it was a really great project and I think the output was like a really great report that was beautifully designed, sort of. I didn't design it, I forget who did, but just using Paul Rand's like grid and type and like just a, it was just a huge education and what a, incredible opportunity to like revisit the work of one of the greats, of design and make a case for the return to that.

It was just like awesome. And then again, just working with Litt was so fun and watching him at work, honestly, just like his ability to really present to this room of people and make that case. I think that's a really undervalued aspect of design is being able to sell the work, right? And really you make a thing and the thing could be beautiful, but there's this step of getting the client to like, Believe that, and buy into that.

And Rick is just such a master at getting people like on board and getting them excited. And he's also just so revered in that community. I think he has like his own day or something.

Christian Solorzano [30:50]

Yeah. And then just again, I think there's like Rick Valicenti Day and I think it's on I think it's on April Fool's Day or it's like on, I don't, I don't think it's on his birthday. I think it's on April Fool's Day. But yeah, seeing him work and seeing how he's so charming and he's so intelligent. And he's such a great listener and he'll hear the slight, he'll hear everything and then repeat it back to the person. Yeah.

And present an idea, but still allow the other person to feel ownership over what's being presented. It's just such a, it'd be interesting to visualize his mental process of input, output, and like everything that happens in the in-between. 'Cause it's so yeah, it's really incredible.

Elaine Lopez [31:37]

Yeah. It's masterful, and that's why he is who he is, if he did— yeah, decades of experience.

Christian Solorzano [31:44]

So you go from, being someone that is taking their first typography class and feeling a little intimidated or like, what did I get myself into, to now working on an identity system that's, referencing a legend like Paul Rand. Do you tend to be someone like— I know sometimes in the world of design or the arts, there's this feeling of imposter syndrome or self-doubt.

Did you ever experience any of that when you were like in some rooms or like in your travels where you're like, how did I get here?

Elaine Lopez [32:23]

Yeah. And I think I would say beyond, my ability as a designer, I think my identity was a bigger part of where I felt that imposter syndrome as a Latina woman and there was not a lot of us in any of these rooms. So I always felt like, wait, what am I doing here? Where are the rest of us? Maybe?

So that was an added layer to that experience that I think is another reason I decided to go to graduate school. And, during this time actually while I was working with, I think it was after Greater Good and before grad school. Yeah. In that brief period, I also, I worked with AIJ Chicago on this report around diversity and inclusion in design in Chicago specifically.

And that I was on the board of AIGA at the time and I kept hearing from people like, oh, we don't have enough designers of color. We don't, and I was like, what does that mean? And that's where my research brain was like, okay, let's like unpack that, right? Is it, doesn't mean people aren't applying? Doesn't mean that the people that are applying, the work isn't like what you're looking for? Is it some other third thing?

And so I conducted this research just like of my own accord with the help of Maris Garcia, which is an incredible researcher, Chicago-based. Came up with questions that we sent out to all the like small studios in Chicago at the time. And I think we chose small studios because, unlike bigger agencies that have like big HR teams and can sort of handle that, I think us, when a small studio's looking to hire, it's, there's less resources.

So through that research, we learned basically that and I think this still rings true, people get hired through word of mouth. And if your community or like your network doesn't include people that are diverse, you're not, these people are not gonna get into your studio basically. And that was sort of the big takeaway from that. And so I started thinking a lot about where did that network begin as a designer? And I, and it begins at school, right?

I think where you go to school is, and where you study design becomes your first network and your first community. And I, Again, thinking about this identity piece, I was like, well, maybe I would best serve, students as a Latina design professor to show them like, hey, you guys can do this too. Here I am teaching you guys. And that's become true. In fact, I've worked for the past 4 years while teaching at Parsons. I've taught thesis and have worked with only women.

So my classrooms, there's a larger proportion of women in the art and design schools anyway, but my thesis class has become, had become this like safe haven for women or like this cool, I don't even wanna say safe haven, but kind of, right? This cool community that's very empowering to women. Sometimes we call it the coven or like, ooh. Whatever.

But I find that women tend to make work, especially women of color, make work that I think they feel they might feel a little less comfortable if there'd been like more guys in the room. They make work about the, about being a woman or about their culture or different practices. And so, yeah, I think ultimately my imposter syndrome, which was your question, was less about maybe my abilities as a designer, but more so about there not being enough representation in the field.

And then doing, dedicating the following 10 years, I would say, of my life.

Christian Solorzano [35:36]

So.

Elaine Lopez [35:38]

To helping remedy that, right? Like cutting my teeth for 10 years, working across all these different types of designs, seeing these, inequities or just a lack really. And none of it was intentional. It just kind of was the time. And then spending the following, 10 years in education trying to sort of remedy that and really make the case for work around culture, identity, and for having more people in the room.

Christian Solorzano [36:01]

And as you look at the state of our profession today, what do you see as the biggest shift happening and the biggest, yeah, just the biggest shift, because that's something that I think, I don't know, like speaking of identity, I feel like design right now is sort of at this moment in time when, for me, I'm even trying to avoid using the word design just because what we do is beyond design. It's more than design.

And I think the most suitable or the most future-proof ways of working today are kind of maybe working towards eliminating that very shallow definition and expanding it to like research and more than research, 'cause even research is still like a kind of shallow buzzword. So how do you, what do you, how do you reconcile like all these changes that are happening and what do you see?

Elaine Lopez [37:07]

Yeah, it's too much. It's too much. I feel, I feel for the students because we're— they're being asked to learn so many things, so many more things. I remember being overwhelmed when I like learned design because it was the Adobe Suite and then like maybe some HTML, and that felt like a lot, in and of itself. You had to come up with your projects, you had to.

And now it's like they've got to learn motion, they've got to learn coding, they've got to learn interaction, they've got to learn research, they've got to learn Print. They, it's just like so much that a designer has to know these days. And I still think our profession isn't valued in the way that it should be when you think about the amount of skill that is required to do this job and skill like freaking software. Now it's like Figma.

Tomorrow someone's gonna design another thing we're gonna have to learn. And I'm just so tired.

It's too much. It's overwhelming. It's too much. It's good, and it's great that there's innovation, but I think it, and it all happens so fast too. It just feels like there, we can never, catch a break. It's like you master one thing and then that thing is no longer relevant anymore. Now we're doing it a different way and you gotta pick that up. And so this, I feel like it's a field that's been constantly evolving and lately invol— evolving at like a hyper speed.

Like now it's node-based design. We were speaking about this a little bit earlier, like Flora and Figma Weave, this whole other process and tools and ways of like, how do we incorporate AI now into what we're doing?

Figuring out those systems and processes. And I mean, I mentioned this earlier, like designing apps, right? Like the spring semester of my senior year, Steve Jobs announced the iPhone, introduced, and that like, I like to share that with my students now when we think about AI because it was just like such a, I didn't know that just like 2, 3 years after that I would be designing an app. Like I didn't even know what an app was, right?

But that's just the nature of this industry, this Business is like, yeah, some new thing's gonna drop, everyone will figure it out. Nobody really knows like how to do these things. Everybody's gonna come up with their own ways and processes and you learn those ways when you enter a job that you're working and they tell you how they do that thing. And then you figure that out and you go to another place and they do it totally different. So then you have to sort of adapt.

And I think overall though, I think that adaptability, that need for constantly evolving to me makes design a really valuable thing to study right now because that's just the way it is, right? Like students, I think what I teach, we don't really teach like software specifically, but we teach them how to learn and how to like be adaptable and how to experiment and just be, not be afraid to try a new different thing.

And I think that's, if we think about education right now and what should people be studying at all, I think design is an excellent thing to study because you're gonna be getting all of these skills that are gonna serve you regardless of what you end up doing, but I think match the pace of like innovation that we're all experiencing right now.

Christian Solorzano [40:00]

Yeah, I'm teaching a Figma workshop at the moment, and part of the course requirements is to walk them through understanding the interface, understanding the type and systems and components and all of that. And I told my class yesterday, I told them, I'm like, I hope you know that everything that I'm teaching you right now is the old way of doing this, and I don't do it the way that I'm teaching you.

Yeah, I'm building this class for you guys to like experience these things, and as I'm doing it, I'm like getting frustrated because there's like a better way to do it. But I need to show you like the old way of doing it before you can understand like the new way. And I said so like towards the end of the quarter, I'm gonna show you something else that's gonna make everything that I just taught you feel so redundant.

Yeah. So it's just, I don't know, it's really fascinating. And I think there's a, there's a really big emphasis that I try to continue to place in everything that I'm doing, which is how do you, despite all these tech innovations, how do you still hold onto that humanity? And like that craft. Because even as we're working with these machines to produce work at a more expedited fashion, something that I try to be really mindful of is how do you maintain your own agency?

So that you don't like get swept away and start to just become like a, the intelligence for the AI. Where now you're being used by it as opposed to you using it.

Elaine Lopez [41:39]

I don't know if we can help that. That's a good question. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, yeah, very good questions. I think it's a reason why I was drawn to Rezo in the first place. I remember, I discovered Rezo in grad school and was in the midst of learning 3D and learning motion and this and the other. It was just so there's such a steep learning curve to like all of these products we have to learn.

And then I took a riso class and I remember just like printing. The first thing I printed is actually a rock. Like I have this like series of rocks and I like almost cried. I share this a lot cuz I was just wow, like that was so easy compared to all this other stuff. And it's like so physical and vibrant and beautiful and this is maybe what design was supposed to be.

Like I just felt this like connection to the tangible and to this physical process that I think is really lacking from a lot of what we do. And then I think to your point of humanity, the other reason, and another big part of my work is work around culture and identity and like community. And I do a lot of like collaborative print pieces that people get to share their experience and finding those together and turning those into objects of design and how beautiful that is.

And it's funny 'cause like that stuff is really weird. It's not efficient sometimes. It's very, impractical. It kind of counters everything that I think our society or like things are demanding of us, like speed and efficiency and scalability. It's like, actually, no, like let's make this really weird book in this really long, complicated way for the sake of that.

And that ultimately ends up being so much more rewarding because it, you just carry like memories or you connect with people and like you get in touch with that humanity. And I think design has the capacity to do that. We're just moving so far away from it every day. And we need to push back against that and slow it down. I don't know. I don't know.

We can't slow it down, but I guess whenever the opportunity arises is to make a zine, make the poster, make the thing, for making sake, not to make a profit, not to sell something, but just because we all like art probably? And then we all have the desire to make. Things. And those things ultimately are what connect with people the most.

Christian Solorzano [43:55]

And when you're working, whether it's, whether it's teaching or producing your own body of work, what are the things that give you that buzz or that sense of excitement? Is there something that comes to mind, whether it's typography or color? Like when it comes to the craft of making, what are the things that you obsess over? I feel like we all have a thing that we're kind of snobby about. What is it for you?

Elaine Lopez [44:20]

I think type. I really, I enjoy working with type and pushing the boundaries and like experimenting. And type and color, I think, are probably my favorite things and what comes up most in my work. And it's funny 'cause I thought about, I don't know how to design typefaces. I never, I didn't take that class. I took different classes. And so I kind of missed that. But I like using other type that people have produced and combining those in really cool and interesting ways whenever possible.

And I remember going back to Rick, this is like the Rick episode. No but he asked me, he's like, are you a form maker? And I was like, and I was like, I don't even know what that means. What do you mean? I think about that a lot and I think I am, but then I'm always pulled towards the practicality of design of like, it needs to communicate this and that.

And so I have this tension between like form making in more experimental ways and then just again, type. And, but I think type is my thing for sure. It's just so important and really like the marker of good design versus not so good design. And I think there's a lot of fun to be had there and a lot of ways to experiment with type.

And that's usually what excites me the most about a good design is like, if the type is good, it's like, oh yeah, that's it. They did it.

Christian Solorzano [45:32]

As I was preparing for this conversation, I was noticing the preciousness in your typography. Everything is very, feels very intentional and very tidy and very smart. But then there's also this added layer, which is your color choices. Like your approach to color also seems very subdued and intelligent. I don't, I don't look at it and think, oh, you're just choosing pretty colors.

There's this, there is a continuity, like as I scroll through your website, like there's like, all right, this feels like something that she would make. And so does this and so does that. But everything still feels like it's informed by its own identity.

Which I really appreciate. And then also just your layouts and your ways of having one page be just photo and the other page just be type. I think that's also, that's also the kind of stuff that I don't think AI will ever be able to do. Maybe at some point, but I just find that there's always these things that are markers that this was created by like a human hand.

Elaine Lopez [46:48]

Totally. Yeah. There's a, the soul in there. I don't know. Like decisions, and it's getting close. I don't know. Sometimes I ask it to do something and I'm like, not bad, but it's not there. It's not it. And then, yeah, what do we lose when we lose that? I think I'm in favor of an AI. I'm in favor of AI for production. Again, we're like, design can be so tedious, like designing a 200, 300, 400-page book, and all the text and all that.

Like once you set up the style and stuff and everything's there, like it can be really tedious to edit things and revisit things.

So if AI can help with that part, that's cool. But yeah, I think I actually believe lately that there's gonna be Hopefully an appreciation for design and the way that we do design because of the ubiquity of like AI design stuff. In fact, a friend of mine, he texted me, he's like, what is this shit? Everything out here is like slop. I mean, and it's everywhere.

I walk outside right now, the coffee shop, the church, like everyone's got this like hideous AI thing that was designed and you could tell it's AI and it doesn't communicate. Like the words are there. And there's some images, but like my eyes glaze over, and maybe the message is getting across. I understand why they use that because I think hiring designers can be challenging or there's no resources, whatever.

But I think there's gonna be a like backlash to all that and hopefully an appreciation to like well-crafted, well-thought-out design that requires like education and skill and ability and, there is. There's a reason we do things the way we do. This is a very like, I think a highly technical field that requires the knowledge of history and of, yeah, different technologies and being able to wield all those tools.

And I hope we, I hope other people will appreciate that craft now that they see like what AI can make and that it's just not it. It just doesn't have the same feeling.

Christian Solorzano [48:40]

Yeah. The other day I saw on Instagram that there was a, there is an event that someone, some organization rented a room at the Art Institute and they put these designs on easels and they were all just AI slop. And people were going to the museum and they were taking pictures and they were like, they could not believe that like AI slop was at the Art Institute.

And the Art Institute had to put out like a statement that said, just to clarify, we did not, we did not consent or like, we didn't put these up basically. Like these were done by someone else. And they rented this space and we have nothing to do with them. But it was such an interesting juxtaposition to see these terrible like graffiti looking, that's the brush script that AI does with like the icons at the bottom.

And then like seeing that, with this beautiful backdrop, which is the Art Institute. So yeah, so—

Elaine Lopez [49:42]

I hope it's intentional. That sounds really cool as like a subversive thing, a commentary on like where we are, or I don't know, I don't know the intention that event, but I hope it was that versus like, we couldn't hire anyone and we just made this stuff. Weird.

Christian Solorzano [49:56]

This is a question that I haven't asked anyone in a long time. What is your version of a utopia?

Elaine Lopez [50:03]

I don't know anymore, honestly. Yeah. It's funny. I think I like wrote something one time around, it was actually not the word utopia, but the word protopia. Which is like, I don't know, utopia is kind of a crazy word as a Cuban person and like what that means on my mind regarding, yeah, intentions and what, yeah, what we should be doing. But Protopia is basically the idea of making something like a little bit better, right?

Christian Solorzano [50:33]

Right.

Elaine Lopez [50:34]

Sometimes I think when you think of utopia, it's just like we gotta re, start from scratch, burn it all to the ground, start over. And it's like, that's not great. Usually that doesn't go so well. But like if you could fix a couple things, and then work, incrementally towards better conditions for everybody involved, then you can get somewhere. But I think I used to be a lot more idealistic.

I think many of us that grew up in the Obama era, and even think about my time in Chicago and how that shaped me, even, in my work around diversity. And it was just, Chicago's just such a, there's such activism there and such care for community and all of that. And I think that really like influenced me. But then to see, Everything that's happened in the last 10 years with Trump and with, it's just like really disheartening. I don't know.

I just, I felt like I was once very like, yeah, like design can save the world. And now I'm like, I don't know if we can do that anymore. I think at this point our best, I just hope like AI doesn't kill us all and that we like don't ruin the environment even more than we already have.

I just watched that Digger this weekend and that was like a good— I liked it. I don't know. I know it's controversial, but as a film, I think it's painting a pretty dystopic future that like you watch it and you're like, yeah, I could see how that— if things keep going, that's probably where we'll end up. So yeah, utopia. I don't know. I don't know anymore. I have to— I think with teaching you sort of have to be optimistic.

'Cause like the practice of that is sort of preparing the future. And I think they make me optimistic and I think they're, Students are just so smart these days and I admire them a lot. I think it's really hard to be a young person in today's society. I hate that's like what we're offering them, but, even with social media and again, like even being a designer and having to learn all this stuff, it's just it's tough.

And I think they handle it with such grace and they're, they get it? I think they're not cynical yet. I think I'm, I don't know if I'm fully cynical. I'm pretty cynical these days, but like. The generation before us was so much more cynical and maybe that bled over and we were so optimistic. And I feel like kids these days are, they're not cynical. They're just they're realistic, they're hungry.

I know they get a lot of, I know people talk a lot of crap about them too, cuz it's, that they're, they don't read or whatever. And I don't know, like you wouldn't be reading either probably. It's not their fault. They're doing their best. So I don't know. I think. I have hope that they'll be able to do something with all of this, hopefully. But it's a lot to put on them. I think it's quite sad.

Christian Solorzano [53:08]

And as an educator, how do you go about creating a container of learning and curiosity and care?

Elaine Lopez [53:18]

Yeah, that is kind of a big part of my pedagogy and teaching practice. And you can ask any of my students, but I think I've been influenced by bell hooks a lot. And her famous book Teaching to Transgress, which by the time I read it, I was like, wait, I'm already kind of doing some of these things. But it's this idea that like a classroom is a community and everybody in there is important.

And how do you create a space that everybody feels welcome to contribute and share? And, critiques are tough, right? Like you make a thing and you have to put it up there for everybody to like judge. That's like a very harsh experience. An important one in design cuz you need to get feedback to make the thing better and to ultimately, be able to work with clients.

But I think I put a lot of attention and care into like making sure that everybody in that room feels like safe and like knows each other and that there's like a community there before we get into that process of critique. So that when you get critique, you're like able to accept it as like a way to help your project forward and not like a personal attack. And I do a lot of, my classrooms are very fun. You can again ask my students.

I tend to be very generous. Sometimes food is involved. I like to start every class I've ever taught by asking everybody to share something they're grateful for. So people go around and we have like conversations about that, which I think brings in that humanity and gives people the opportunity to like check in and just like enter the space in a positive way. And I think if you do that, to me, like honestly, the design is like secondary.

It's like, yeah, again, because you're gonna, you're gonna go to a job. What I'm teaching you should get you an interview so that you can then get a job, you think you're gonna learn totally different things than whatever you learn here. I know that, but what I think is most important about the classroom is that community, that networking, that these people become your friends for life because that's actually how you're gonna get jobs later.

And how it's, I mean, if I think back on my own career, like most of the jobs I've gotten have been through many, through my friends from undergrad or just people you've worked with. It's going back to that word of mouth, right? Like your network, your community, all of that is really important. And so the classroom should be a place that fosters that. And I put a lot of care and intention into that. And then I think the design will hit later.

I also know as a student, you would take a class about something and you really didn't get it at the time, but then like 2 semesters later or later, you're working on a client and like it clicks, right? Again, going back to the urgency and immediacy of our society, it's like learning doesn't work like that. Like sometimes get something in there and then you're able to apply it. Way later, and that's okay. Everything doesn't have to be so measured and output-focused.

So yeah, as an educator, I think that's my main goal in the classroom is to foster that sense of community, to make a space where you feel comfortable making. I actually think that's the biggest challenge with students is getting them to make anything at all.

With the overwhelm that this like world, is providing them, they're really discouraged, and also the cost of tuition and all this stuff. And it's like, okay, Let's like figure out how to put all that aside and then just like make a thing you wanna make that you're like truly deeply excited about and that you feel proud enough to share in your portfolio and to share during an interview in a way that is like gonna demonstrate your knowledge and enthusiasm so that they're gonna wanna hire you.

Like that's what it all comes down to.

Christian Solorzano [56:38]

Yeah. And given that you've been, you haven't been, a Chicago resident for some time now. What are some of the, what are some bits and pieces of Chicago that you still find yourself carrying throughout your life?

Elaine Lopez [56:54]

A lot. I think Chicago made me a very nice person, especially coming from Miami and Florida. I remember moving in and being like, why is everybody so nice? This is so weird. And then, and you're like, yeah, it's better to be nice. What? So I really carry that with me. I think it's influenced my personality and my way of relating to people is just the openness and warmth of the Midwest, I think, is really. I never aspired to be in New York too.

It's weird to me that I'm here because I think I enjoyed Chicago so much and there was like, it was such a formative experience that New York never made sense. Why would you do that when you could do this? This is a big city, it's beautiful, it's clean, it's cheaper, people are nice, like all this stuff. And then being here, I'm like, oh, like I'm still grappling with that a little bit. But I think, yeah, that, the, Appreciation of design. I think Chicago's a beautiful city.

The architecture, the care, like the preservation of that history and of those values that you see sort of everywhere, the pride in that city, I think I really admire and is something that I like seek out in other places. Philadelphia, where I lived for like 4 years, has like a Chicago vibe.

And I think a lot of people, a lot of people like skip Philadelphia, like they've never been there and they just like but there's like a lot of similarities to the point of like, there's some street names that are the same in Chicago and in Philadelphia. And the, there's just like a grittiness to the people there and like a real, like down-to-earth nature in Philly that I think reminded me a lot of Chicago. And also the food is really good.

So that I, yeah, food is very important to live in a place that I, you get spoiled in Chicago. The food is just wonderful everywhere. Yeah, I think those are the things I carry with me from Chicago, like still. Ability to handle the cold elsewhere. People here complain about the cold. I'm like, please gimme a break. You guys are chickens.

Christian Solorzano [58:44]

As we reach the end of our conversation, I wanna know what are some of the things that are making you happy lately?

Elaine Lopez [58:52]

That's a good question. The weather. I wish it was warmer. I think I was hoping summer lasted a little longer, but it's really lovely right now and I've been taking my dog who's very old. She was quiet this whole time. She's very old. On these like very long, slow walks every morning around the neighborhood. Whenever she asks, we'll just like go on these like long meandering walks.

And that I think has been really good for like my mental health and just to like see the neighborhood in a different way where I live. I live in a very like green, peaceful, Chicago-esque like neighborhood in Brooklyn, Crown Heights. And it's very like— Lush. That's been making me happy. I think I've been trying to go to a lot of stuff. I'm like, if I'm in New York, I've gotta go to things.

There's no point in living here and paying this rent if you're like not going to shows. So I've been trying to see like a lot of live music. So Gustavo Dudamel is now the new conductor for the New York Philharmonic and he's Venezuelan. So I don't know, it's just like cool to like, I've seen him twice now or the Philharmonic twice, which is fun. Or just going to random shows and just trying to do things, do a new, one new thing once a week.

That's sort of been my goal lately. And that's proven to be pretty fruitful just to like get outta the house. You were mentioning you work within a close proximity. So yeah, I'm actually on sabbatical now from teaching, so I am in my house a lot. And so I'm like forcing myself to just go to the Guggenheim, go to MoMA, go see these things and be inspired and experience sort of like all the things that this place has to offer.

Christian Solorzano [60:23]

Beautiful. And do you find yourself visiting Chicago often, or what's— when was the last time you were here?

Elaine Lopez [60:30]

I think I was last there for the CAA conference a few years ago. I did go back pretty often, and then, the pandemic kind of ruined everything for everyone. But I have a lot of friends there, and it's weird going back. It's like a it's like this weird bittersweet feeling that I sometimes, maybe I don't go back as often because of that. 'Cause it's like I have such like fond memories of this place.

I like, I mean, I really like lived there and it's not like I lived there. I was like there in my 20s and we were like outside like all the time.

Went to every street fest. I really, I feel like I really like juiced that city for all that it had. And so going back now and seeing things like be a little bit different or neighborhoods be a little bit more evolved or like, it feels like weird. It's just really weird. And thinking about the friends and people that, I used to hang out with there who are some no longer with us, some all living in different places.

Like it just brings back a lot of memories and sometimes that can be like a very emotional experience, but happy to go back whenever. I wanna go back and see the new Obama Library like that. I definitely have to make a trip out there. And every time I go, I have such a great time just again, seeing all my friends and Visiting all the great people that I think is one of the best things Chicago has.

Christian Solorzano [61:47]

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. Everyone's gonna be really happy that you're on our show. So this will be a treat. I haven't, I haven't told I haven't told anyone really. I only told one person that you were gonna be on the show. So it's gonna be a, it'll be a cool surprise.

So and then and then I hope that maybe at some point we can like connect in person and maybe Have you been involved in some Chicago things, even if from afar?

Elaine Lopez [62:15]

Always. I'm like an ambassador? I, I'm still, I, and I go hard for Chicago all the time. I'm always reminding people, a lot of people who've never been, I'm like, what are you doing? What do you mean you've never been to Chicago? What's wrong with you? So I'm like, I'm doing the work from a distance of getting people out there and getting people to appreciate what a great city Chicago is. 'Cause I just think people just don't know. They like skip it entirely.

But yeah, hit me up if you're ever in New York. And next time I go back, which will hopefully be soon, I will reach out and Let's keep chatting.

Christian Solorzano [62:44]

Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Elaine Lopez [62:46]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Christian Solorzano [62:48]

Thank you so much for sticking around till the end. As always, if you enjoy conversations like these, please leave us a rating wherever you listen. Thank you, and we'll talk to you soon.

Elaine Lopez [63:00]

Goodbye.