Christian Solorzano [00:05]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club dedicated to bringing you conversations with Chicago's creative leaders. On this podcast, we'll explore the craft, theory, and practice of graphic design, plus discuss bold ideas that push the boundaries of what's possible and ways in which we can create a more thoughtful and inclusive community. To learn more about us, visit our website at www.chicagographicdesign.club or find us on social media. Special thanks to the Chicago band Eighties Slang for our theme music.

Francis [00:44]

Thank you.

Christian Solorzano [00:56]

Hello. Today I am your host, Christian Solorzano, and I am honored to be speaking with the designer Francis. Although they are no longer based out of Chicago, they still have Chicago roots that run deep. According to their website, and I quote, Francis is not some new studio that is going to give you some fluff and horrible marketing language or the standard about page. Francis isn't a fancy studio. It's not even a studio. Maybe someday.

Right now it's just an idea of someone or something who wants to do good work, who is sick of trends and everything looking the same, who takes the time and wants to make something worthwhile with creativity. That's it. If you visit their website or social media, you might ask yourself, who is Francis? The answer is simple. It doesn't matter. They put graphic design before their identity. If you look at the work of Francis, you'll see significant elements of an analog process.

Their aesthetic is messy, perfectly imperfect, complex, and human, and I encourage you to check out their website at www.francis.design. So let's get started. Hi Francis, welcome.

Francis [02:07]

Hello, thanks for having me.

Christian Solorzano [02:09]

So you're somewhat of a mystery, which I think is great. I want to hear about how you got involved in graphic design. I want to hear the story of Francis. How did Francis become Francis?

Francis [02:26]

Yeah, that's a good question. So graphic design by way of college. So I went to the University of Illinois in Chicago back in the mid-'90s. And that was a great program. We learned all the foundational courses, anything from graphic design, industrial design, painting, drawing, sculpture, photography. I mean, you name it. And graphic design was the thing that stuck. I was originally going to go into industrial design, but I think just given my fine arts background, graphic design was the, was the way to go.

I just instantly fell in love with it.

Christian Solorzano [03:04]

And what were, what were some of the like, what were some of the things that you learned when you were going to school in the mid-'90s? What was that? What was the curriculum like? Or, or I guess a better question would be, were there any significant moments during your education that sort of paved the way for who you've become today?

Francis [03:25]

Yeah, that's a good question. So UIC back then in the '90s was really focused on modernism, Swiss graphic design, grids, Paul Rand, Müller-Brockmann. Armin Hoffman, like all those guys. And that was the foundational course. And we didn't even touch a computer for the first 2 years as a student. So it was this foundation of very strict graphic design principles. But the problem was, in the '90s, postmodernism was huge. And this is when, David Carson was starting to explode.

So just imagine being, a 20-year-old kid and like trying to go through this era of the '90s. And it was, it was phenomenal. So it was this crazy hybrid of very strict graphic design, very Swiss graphic design, but then the exact opposite aesthetic thrown at you.

Christian Solorzano [04:25]

Got it. And when would you say Francis was born?

Francis [04:31]

Francis, I don't think, was born until 2017. November 1st is the exact date.

Christian Solorzano [04:39]

Okay, November 1st, 2017. And what were— how— what were some of the things that gave birth to Francis? What were— I want to hear about what were the ingredients that went into the recipe that produces a lot of awesome work, a lot of great work for the past, 5 years now, almost 6.

Francis [05:02]

Yeah, that's a— these are good questions. So I think, I think what really started Francis was I was just so sick of like everything having to be a certain way, and I was struggling myself with following the rules, trying to fit within a certain label or genre or time period of arts or time of graphic design. And it wasn't until I actually told myself that just, this is— this sucks, this is just awful. I don't care about any of this stuff.

I don't care what anybody thinks about anything that I make. I don't care what they think about me. And I just wanted to do really good graphic design, and that was it. And as long as I just focused on the work, and I don't care what anybody else thought, and I think that was the whole foundation for Francis. Yeah, I was really struggling to fit in into the Chicago design community.

Christian Solorzano [06:02]

And did it take some— I mean, if Francis was born in 2017, was it already an idea like years before then? Or was it like, what led up to 2017? I know you mentioned a little bit about just like your frustration with the way, design was going and whatnot. But was it something that you've always wanted to do? And then finally you said, all right, you know what, I've thought about it long enough, I'm finally gonna do it.

Francis [06:32]

Yeah, I mean, that, yeah, that's pretty much it. Sorry to cut you off, that was really rude. But yeah, I think that, I think that's it. I think it was, it was essentially a plan for the decade. I just didn't really know, or I didn't even, I needed to convince myself first that this was correct. And this is what I'm, this is what really what I was all about. So it took a while. It took a while to fail and try.

And, there's this, there's this comedian Ricky Gervais, and he didn't get famous until he was later in life. But I remember him saying to his wife, what if this happened when I was younger? And she said something along the lines of, it wouldn't have been the same. It wouldn't have been successful. So I think it's very similar to that. You have to go through these motions and find your own voice.

Christian Solorzano [07:16]

Yeah. And one of the things that I really love about Francis is that Unlike other designers or studios or agencies or whatever, Francis appears to not take— like, Francis doesn't take themselves too seriously. And there's this big element of dark humor that goes into the work. And I would say that I experience your work on Instagram, on social media. And I would say that often the visuals are great. I think you do a good job there, and everything you always produce is always surprising.

But I also really love your captions and the way that you talk about your work. And I think that's something that I've seen. I guess I've seen maybe sometimes designers take the way that they speak about their work a little bit too seriously.

So I'm going to read one of your, one of your Instagram captions for your quarter 1 financial report, which you tend to do, and sometimes you forget to do them, but you find a way to make fun of yourself for not doing them in a timely fashion.

Francis [08:40]

Can't wait for this one.

Christian Solorzano [08:41]

So this one is from, let's see, it's from April 17th. So Francis said, a little late, but I don't care. Here is Francis's quarter 1 financial report. The short version: zero clients, zero revenue, a lot of debt.

Francis [08:58]

Great. Things are looking up.

Christian Solorzano [09:01]

There might be a new client next quarter. This reminds me, I'm way overdue on sending them sketches. That also reminds me of this guy I knew named Phil who would always mess something up. It wouldn't matter what it was, Phil would figure out a way to screw it up. You could leave him in a room all by himself with literally nothing else in the room, come back in 6 minutes, and he'd have Mountain Dew all down the front of his shirt.

But you didn't leave him with Mountain Dew, and there was no way for him to even get the Mountain Dew. But sure enough, he'd be covered in neon yellow. And then you talk a little bit about the process and the mediums, and in this case, 6 by 8 inches or close. I don't feel like measuring it.

Francis [09:46]

Yeah, I remember that one. That was a nice one.

Christian Solorzano [09:52]

And I just, I feel like the way Francis talks about the work almost breaks the continuity of a lot of what I see on my social media feed. So I'll be scrolling down and I'll just be looking at, beautiful work, sometimes with captions, sometimes without. But I think your way of storytelling just really adds another element to the work. So can you just walk us through, how— like, what's the relationship between the dark humor and the work? And yeah, just how does that work?

Francis [10:30]

So real quick, I think that's a really good example. So I started making these quarterly reports as posters because, again, going back to education, the annual report design was a huge challenge. It was like this massive thing in the '90s where you had to learn how to set type. So I always thought about like, I'll be really cool if you just turn quarterly reports into posters.

And because I'm a one-person shop that works off of donations, not even invoices, that I'm like, well, I'm not going to make any money or be successful whatsoever, so I might as well have some fun with it. I think that's kind of where like that whole idea of the caption and storytelling kind of comes in. I don't do that all the time.

It's just sometimes when I'm, at the bar and I had a couple beers, I try to, think about whatever it is on— it's on my mind. On the flip side, I think the dark humor, like that's a really good point. I think obviously depression is like a huge part of my life. And I think that comes across in the design. And I think it's important to take these moments that go on throughout your life and turn them into something beautiful.

So no matter how like horrible things are going, there's always an opportunity to create something beautiful out of it.

Christian Solorzano [11:43]

Yeah, I like that. Because I would say some of your, some of the, some of the pieces that you have, like they tend to go from Some of them appear to be like quite serious, whereas other ones are a little bit more, a little bit, I guess, lighthearted. Yeah.

Francis [12:01]

You never really know like what's real, what's true, what's not.

Christian Solorzano [12:05]

And do you find that this entire idea of not really focusing on things like profits or, having to work really hard to get clients, do you find this way of working to be almost a little bit liberating? Because it seems like you almost have no expectations of yourself other than just create good work. And that's it.

Francis [12:30]

That's actually 100% correct. That's exactly what it is. If I'm not doing great work, then I'm just not happy. I'm just one of those people. And, but it's also hypocritical in a way, like you've had, you've had really good speakers. And, between Segura and Bob Zeni and some others, that have been through it and they've, tried to get all these clients and gone through it and they know exactly what it takes to be successful in having a career in design.

So I think it's easy for me to say I'm not gonna care about any of that stuff and just focus on the work. But on the flip side, that's the whole point of it. That's what makes me happy is doing graphic design. So whatever happens from it.

Christian Solorzano [13:14]

Because you're literally doing people say to do, which is to do what you love, and you are doing that.

Francis [13:24]

Just trying really hard.

Christian Solorzano [13:26]

Very—

Francis [13:27]

I do have a client right now. I'm doing this logo for this motorcycle touring holiday, and it's coming out awful. So I'm about— I'm like really close to just saying, here you go, and just not writing him back ever again. He's a good guy and all, but he's just too hands-on. So yeah, that's kind of where the whole donation thing comes in. Segura's got it great on his whole manifesto, but it's sort of similar.

It's like, if I'm not doing good work, then I don't want to do it. And it's that, it's that black and white. So I'm right at that point.

Christian Solorzano [14:02]

And how do you so for example, when you're working with a client do you I'm assuming they're aware of, the philosophy of Francis and sort of what your work represents.

Francis [14:19]

And yeah, that's my very first thing. I just tell them I have 100% creative freedom. If you don't like it, that's fine. We can part ways and it's probably better anyway.

Christian Solorzano [14:29]

Okay. And what are, what's the, what do clients, are clients, I'm guessing if they choose to work with you, then, yeah, pretty cool.

Francis [14:38]

Yeah, that's— yeah, getting back to the whole quarterly report, that's probably why I make $0 a quarter, like that. I don't have a lot of people knocking on my door for— yeah, kind of, dark, depressive, analog, messy. I don't know what it is, but yeah, it's not very profitable, Christian.

Christian Solorzano [15:01]

You seem to be doing just fine. You're able to get on Zoom to have this conversation. So thanks.

Francis [15:09]

It's my grandma's Zoom account, but thank you.

Christian Solorzano [15:11]

You have internet access somehow. So do you mind if we talk a little bit about your what your website calls the brand pillars, which right after that you say we don't have brand pillars, we have 7 deadly sins. Instead of, instead of some Shit about everything we stand for that sounds like every other company. Here is everything that we're not. And then I'll read them. Fuck accessibility, fuck best practices, fuck compromise, fuck design thinking, fuck disruptions, fuck trends, and fuck user testing.

Francis [15:52]

This is going well. Yeah, so essentially, I got really fed up with all these like buzzwords about design and I was getting really discouraged on how even the word design was becoming trendy and it was driving me crazy. So I kind of just thought about these 7 deadly sins for graphic design or graphic design as I knew it from the, mid-'90s and early 2000s.

So that's where those Brand Pillars slash Seven Deadly Sins came in. And, to be totally frank, you mentioned the design thinking one. That's one of my favorite posters I think I've ever made. It took me about 6 tries, and then I think I finally got it right. Yeah, it was all black and white. But yeah, that's— that was like the whole mantra. It's like, we don't do any of these buzzwords. I can't stand any of that mentality. That's the whole point.

So Francis's slogan is graphic design for outcasts, and it's kind of, it's like, it's playful and it's fun, but it's also true. We don't wanna like fall into any of those categories or any of those trends or buzzwords. And yeah, that's what it's about.

Christian Solorzano [17:03]

And have you, so since 2017 that you've been, that, Francis has been existing, how has, what's that evolution have been, have been like for you? Just as Francis, how do you— how have you evolved or any lessons along the way?

Francis [17:27]

That's a good question. I think the evolution, I think I've done more analog work lately. Okay. I've done more pieces where I'm less worried about, the Swiss side of perfection and lining things up and grid lines and things like that. I've been a little bit more free. I think the past couple of years I've also been trying really hard on the conceptual idea behind the design. So it's not just something pretty and, old grunge from 1998, but, there's a whole story behind it as well.

Christian Solorzano [18:04]

And how do you— and a lot of the work that you do, from what I see, tends to be self-initiated. So, for example, I have one pulled up right now from May 13th, 2022, and it's about a horse.

Francis [18:22]

Gary.

Christian Solorzano [18:25]

Yeah. And the caption is, have you ever noticed that horses have horrible names? They're essentially just sentence fragments or pieces of crap poetry written by a 5-year-old. Anyways, this is Gary. He's fast and brownish.

Francis [18:40]

That's really good looking. I don't know.

Christian Solorzano [18:46]

And so yeah, just walk us through, yeah, how do you go from, yeah, how do you start one of these things? Did you see a horse? Did you hear the name Gary? Did you have a dream? How do a lot of these projects come to fruition? Because I think and maybe you've seen this in our industry, is that sometimes people struggle with doing the kind of work that they want to be doing. And I think sometimes it's up to you to make that work happen.

So I always look up to, I always look up to people like Carlos Segura, for example, who is one of our guests, is he doesn't wait for permission from someone to tell him Hey, make this awesome poster. He will just give himself some sort of problem statement and then get to work. So what is it like for you?

Francis [19:45]

That's exactly it. So again, not to be hypocritical, but sometimes like I have the freedom to do that, or if you're a design studio, you have to worry about your bills and your overhead and your staff and clients and deadlines and legal fees and all that. And I just don't have any of that stuff because I just don't want to deal with it. I just want to, I just want to deal with the work. So.

In the terms of in the case of Gary, rather, I think I was probably sitting at a bar watching the Kentucky Derby and just realizing how much I just can't stand the Kentucky Derby, and that's probably what sparked it. But I think to answer your question, I just I'm one of those people that has random thoughts and random ideas like all the time, and I'm always writing them down. I've always got a notebook.

I'm always scribbling them out, and I just love thinking about like oh that could be a cool project, or like that could be a cool poster. So. Things like Gary probably started from a seed just like that. And then you just kind of evolve into like, all right, what would it look like? And then what might the type look like? I usually think about typography first.

Christian Solorzano [20:47]

Okay. Got it. And what is that? And I, I'm always very curious to learn about what people's process and their routine are like, and also just overall, what is, what is a day? What is, what is the perfect day for Francis?

Francis [21:10]

Yeah, I don't know. I think, process is a tricky word. I've always tried to stay away from it, but because everybody's got their own and you can't define it, but process needs a definition. I just don't think it's possible because, we're creatives and we're designers and we sometimes work at 3 o'clock in the morning or 6 o'clock in the morning or inside or outside. So it doesn't make— there's just no way to paint that picture, I think.

But for me, it's just like thinking about a strange idea or something unique and something that means something to me or a story I want to tell, and then trying to think about the concept behind that. And I think I like to also like write the same idea over and over again.

So let's say, let's take Gary. Gary's a horse. But if you keep writing that sentence over and over in different ways or metaphors or different adjectives that represent Gary, you start coming up with a conceptual idea.

And then that conceptual idea starts to take form in your color scheme, your type, like the materials you use. So I guess my process is just trying to take a pencil and paper and think through ideas with words first until they start to make something in my head and then I'll sketch it. Yeah, sketch it out.

Christian Solorzano [22:30]

And what's your relationship with a computer? Because everything seems to be pretty analog, I think, aside from the fact that you use a computer to share this work. How? How? Yeah, sure.

Francis [22:49]

So I think, I think for me, again, I hate to keep talking about my past, but we didn't touch a computer in design school until our second year. So we went through all this analog work, we had wax machines and cut paper, and we would learn about kerning from actually moving letters back and forth with paper, and then we would rewax it and re-put it on.

We had a whole letterpress machine, and we'd be holding lead types, so we would learn about, all the elements that make up type design through physical specimens.

So I think that's just come through in all the work that I do now. It's just, it just to me, it's the same. So I, there's just something fascinating to me about the different textures and the fact that they're real. So I put them together and then I scan them and then I bring them into the computer afterwards. But that's not always the case. So I also, I mean, I do a ton of, work on the computer, mostly Illustrator.

Yeah, that last, Hiroshima poster, for example, it's all computer. But then the one right before it, this other logo for this other client, is just ink and paper and a ruler and a scanner.

Christian Solorzano [24:03]

Got it. And what about— so you sort of combined these technologies. You work analog and you also work on the computer. And I recently saw that you that you created something using artificial intelligence, Midjourney. And that's, and that's something that I think a lot of designers have been talking about a lot lately, and it's just this idea of craft and how tools like Midjourney today are now able to generate really creative Outputs with very little effort and very little time.

Francis [24:51]

Yeah, I mean, that's a whole entire show, so I don't know if you want to go down that road, but, for that particular one, I just wanted to— I just want to try it out and see if I couldn't make type by using prompts and keywords and things like that. So I'm trying to stay as optimistic as possible on that one. It's like you could be really pessimistic and negative and think about it as the demise of everything that we do.

But on the flip side, you could figure out how to use it just like another tool, just like everything else. I mean, if Midjourney takes off, I'm still gonna have an X-Acto knife and glue and paper and paint. It's just something that I love to do. And I think it gives a certain quality or aesthetic to the work that I don't think you can replicate with Things like AI today.

Christian Solorzano [25:42]

Yeah. So you're not, you're not necessarily, you don't, you don't, I've heard from, just reading articles and hearing designers talk about this, but do you, do you feel at any, by any means, like threatened by, like things like artificial intelligence? Do you feel like it's—

Francis [26:02]

No, not me. I think I think what makes me unique or Francis unique is the idea and the ability to make something from nothing. And the thing about AI is it's scanning and scanning and scanning prompts, from everything that's out there and making something from it. And that's something that I just think that having a human brain is the benefit.

I still give it— it's still gonna be your own. If you have a concept, an idea, that's your winning point. This is just, to me, it's just like another way to execute on it. But without an idea, there's not much. There's not much there. It's like you were saying to Carlos the other day about all of his logos having a very smart idea behind them. And I think your response was, of course it's that, it couldn't be anything else.

I think that is really important in very good graphic design without that concept. It's just anything. It's just, into the sea of sameness, as I like to call it.

Christian Solorzano [27:10]

Yeah. But I do think that, I don't know, because I, and you and I were talking about this not too long ago, but there's certain design studios or designers that create, for instance, wonderful brand identities for their clients. And sometimes these identities look great and they work and they function well and the client is pleased and all that kind of stuff. But then there's almost like this, like I was mentioning to you, like it appears that sometimes designers design for other designers.

And I think, and I think if you, if you were to, and again, I don't know too much about how AI works, but I do feel like at a point you might be able to, let's say, create a branding for a healthcare company that specializes in, I don't know, medicine for children. Based out of California.

Francis [28:25]

It's gonna look the same.

Christian Solorzano [28:26]

Yeah. And it'll, and it'll look beautiful and it'll look great and it could probably win awards. And I actually want to talk to you about awards in just a bit, but before we transition to that yeah, just what do you think about that? Like just this idea of—

Francis [28:40]

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think the answer is the fact that the world today, in my opinion, clients today are willing to accept the average. It's very like your example of healthcare logos. You can already see them in your head as you hear these words, you already know what it's going to look like. And the fact that corporations and the world today is okay with it is a detriment, I think, to the industry.

But it's also up to us, to designers, to push the envelope and don't make that logo that you know is going to be approved by a client.

You need to push yourself. You shouldn't be making something that you know the client's gonna accept so you can just move on to the next one. That's— that sucks. That's not fun at all. And that's really boring. But I think that's what's feeding into this whole concept of trends, which, don't get me started on. But that's what makes things like AI successful, because they look at all these same over and over, and they can just replicate it. And then a client says, yeah, that's fine.

Yeah, you get paid and you move on. And that's why we have shitty design today.

Christian Solorzano [29:49]

And one of the things that I remember you created last year actually, is you created a— I guess you could say not an award, but you created a little logo that reads Winner of Nothing.

And you wrote, when you do good work, finally get up enough time, finally get up enough time, courage, and money to enter, and don't win anything because of some snotty jackass. Well, I get it. This logo is free on the site, so if you're like me, go ahead and pop this bad boy on your resume. Made with ink, sadness, paper crumbled and scanned.

Francis [30:32]

Awards are, awards are tricky because it's almost like Nature of the beast. And who doesn't want to win an award? I think that's just human nature. They say the same thing about the Grammys, because the Grammys are such like a weird corporation. Pop music just gets whoever most popular gets the award. But what musician doesn't want to win a Grammy?

Christian Solorzano [30:54]

Yeah.

Francis [30:55]

I mean, not all, but you know what I mean? I think design is similar. And I think like listening to your other podcast like a couple days ago, the one with Bob, he said something really smart. I don't know if it was in reference to the STA, but he was saying that like all the entries had their names covered up and they were just judged on the work themselves. And he had the story of some designer all up in arms and didn't win anything.

But I think we need, I think we need more of that. I think we just need to focus on what the actual work is. And if an award comes through it, so be it. It's part of the business.

Christian Solorzano [31:33]

Yeah, there, that reminds me of because I know there's been, there's been some musicians who have refused to be, to get any nominations for any sort of awards because they feel so connected to their music that they don't want to subject their music to a competition.

Francis [31:54]

I know what you're saying, but I think the flip side of that coin is Typically, from my experience, judges of awards show tend to be other designers.

So the saving grace is you're being judged amongst your peers. So there's something I like about that too. I do think Bob had a great idea with the name coverage thing. I think some of the— I mean, the word— the awards rather— around the city or the industry and they're the same names coming up every single year. And I think that's really frustrating for younger designers that are trying to do their best and try to experience and just get shit on because of some bullshit.

Christian Solorzano [32:38]

So what do you say? Would you ever— would Francis ever subject themselves to a competition?

Francis [32:48]

Yeah, sure. Why not?

Christian Solorzano [32:50]

Okay.

Francis [32:51]

I mean, I don't, I don't think I will, but maybe. I think, I don't know, I really liked that last poster I just did. Yeah, that movie Hiroshima. I'm like, man, that was really smart. Yeah, I don't want to talk myself up or anything, but I mean, but I don't know, I don't know, I'm halfway through my career and I feel like awards are totally fine. I just don't know if that's me. I just don't know if I care.

Christian Solorzano [33:18]

Yep. And another question that I have for you is, like you said, you're always carrying a notebook and you're almost always just vigilant about any idea that might pop out of nowhere. Do you have any specific, things that you go to for inspiration, or how does inspiration play a role in the work that you're doing?

Francis [33:51]

Yeah I don't know, man, that question. I don't know. I always say there, there— I just feel like inspiration is the world around you. It's your life. It's everything you experience. There is no, there's no source of inspiration. It's something that like drives me absolutely crazy.

It's like when someone say like needs to go to Dribbble to find something, that they're like, oh, I'm just in a rut, so I'm gonna go to Dribbble like the best thing that's ever gonna happen is you're gonna start by copying someone else. Like that's what's gonna come out of doing that. So for me, it's I like to just turn everything off and just go experience the world.

That sounds so cheesy and so cliché, but I think there's like beauty in the most random things, like textures on a wall. For some reason, I started taking photos of these stupid textures, and I was like, "What is this person doing?" And I'm just like really close to like this corner, like this old brick or something. Like oh, this looks awesome. So yeah, but I think that's it. I think it's just getting out and turning off your phone and just trying to absorb everything.

Plus there's also life. Life has these milestone moments of extreme loss and heartbreak and then beauty and love, and there's just so much that you can make out of just being alive.

Christian Solorzano [35:14]

I love that. And I also, I guess I apologize for asking you that question because I also feel that way when I, when I'm asked that question. But yeah, I think it's just, I think it's just, it's an interesting question because I think everyone has a different response to it. But I agree. I think inspiration is everything. And I think as long as you think that it's only in one particular space, you sort of other yourself from— Yeah, from everything.

Francis [35:46]

Yeah, it's the same with the process. It just, it's just too hard to define.

Christian Solorzano [35:50]

Yeah, like you are the process. Like when you, when you're brushing your teeth, like that's the process.

Francis [35:55]

You know? It is though. You're right.

Christian Solorzano [35:59]

If you, yeah, if you, if you slip on the, yeah, if you slip in the bathroom, you hit your head. That's part of the process. You're probably not gonna be, I don't know.

Francis [36:09]

All right.

Christian Solorzano [36:11]

Anyways so you talked a little bit about your most recent project your poster. What are some of the— what are some of your favorite projects that you've worked on over the past? Yeah, just good questions to share.

Francis [36:27]

I did— well, I did this one poster that was not successful, and I don't know how many times I tried it. Here, I'm gonna try to find it for you. But the copy was something along the lines of a stomach on fire and a scalp full of acne. And I just was like working and working and working on it. And it's still, it's just not good. But I love the fact that I tried it.

And I love the fact that it's not that good, but, it was an idea and I gave it a shot. I think, some of my favorites the spread I did for 46 Pages magazine, I think, was a lot of fun. So I wrote the whole story of Francis as a literal narrative, and then I wrote a made-up story next to it in poetry.

And I used maps and music, and I had a corresponding Spotify playlist that as you read this design piece and the story of Francis. You could like solve all these clues. And I even was like saying like, oh man, like let me know if you figure out where Francis escaped the law from and how he crossed the border, and I'll mail you out all this like printed work that I did. And man, I didn't hear like anything.

Christian Solorzano [37:51]

Really?

Francis [37:52]

Yeah. But that was one of my favorite things. And yeah, I did another whole series for Ultraviolet Magazine based off the 7 Deadly Sins. I really liked just getting back to that. Just, it was just straight Helvetica. We had like these certain rules about it, but it was just a blast, like working with like these old materials like tape. And I don't know, that to me is just a lot of fun.

I don't really care or know so much about how it's gonna end up, but sometimes the end result is just, it's just a blast. I do this other thing where I try to do like this theme I call Punk Rock Saturdays, where you remake old punk flyers or make punk flyers that are mixed with, nonexistent acts. That's a lot of fun because it's quick. It's not perfect, but you're doing design and you can get it done in a few hours, and sometimes it comes out beautiful.

Christian Solorzano [38:47]

Yeah, there— and I think sometimes you also like to play or mess with the viewer because I remember you did a you did a series about cars, iconic car— iconic cars in music videos. And you did it, and you, and you did one on Guns N' Roses. And the— you included like a little excerpt in the, in the piece. And there was the way that you wrote it. Made me feel like I was going insane because—

Francis [39:28]

Welcome.

Christian Solorzano [39:29]

There's a lot of typos, but very subtly to the point where it's like, yeah, this was not intentional, but then they just kept happening. And then the sentences eventually started to not make any sense. Yeah.

Francis [39:44]

Well, I think for that, I put those 2 text boxes together. And then I like overlapped them. That was like this trick that Basquiat used to do. I think I forgot that writer but he used to like cut up type and then move them together and that would give him inspiration. This is Basquiat, the painter. But I was kind of trying to do something like that where, like you said, going crazy or having, these different points of view.

That's what I was trying to go with it. But I found this other designer that does these crazy AR card things with prints, and it's like the most beautiful work. I'm like, man, I'm never gonna— I'm never gonna do this any justice whatsoever. Yeah, but it was fun.

Christian Solorzano [40:27]

Yeah. And so you seem to really be connected to your graphic design roots from the '90s when you, when you went to college. But is there anything today that and just going back to this buzzword or like this word that neither of us like, but is there anything today specifically, anything contemporary, any designers or any sort of even non-visual mediums that are inspiring the work that you do or that you feel very drawn to?

You sort of mentioned right now this designer that uses AR, on projects, but is there anything specifically that you've seen? Perhaps even from like a newer generation of designers that sort of—

Francis [41:18]

Oh yeah, for sure—

Christian Solorzano [41:18]

Got your attention?

Francis [41:20]

Yeah, my generation is easy. I think, like I was saying, we studied under the modernist designers, Vignelli and just all those guys. And then in the postmodern world, you started learning about Pentagram and Paula Scher and album design. Some of my, some of my heroes of graphic design, I think, are Wim Krol, or Wim, however you want to say his first name. But then also guys like Vaughn Oliver, back when the Pixies covers are obviously like his most iconic work.

But just imagine, being 18 through 20 in the '90s and seeing this stuff for the first time and getting to smell the books when they, when they were printed and you have to go to an actual bookstore to get it. It was, it was just phenomenal. It was a great time. Even today, I think, Chris Ashworth is probably one of my favorites, but, he's straight out of the '90s as well.

I got to meet Marian Banshees. She was, she was, she was like super nice, like really into design, really into the craft. She was like really shy, but she's just freakishly nice human being.

Christian Solorzano [42:35]

And are there any, non-visual things that you're also, that sort of influence the work that you're doing? I know you mentioned music. Anything else?

Francis [42:48]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm a huge fan of architecture. Obviously from Chicago, Mies van der Rohe's like, just insanely talented. I think what I liked about him is it's essentially a grid and he's trying to do nothing, but it's still beautiful at the same time. It's just, it's just odd that you try to copy it and you can't.

Christian Solorzano [43:07]

It's like 3-dimensional graphic design. That's how I think of it.

Francis [43:11]

Yeah. But yeah, huge architecture fan. I love music. Anything punk rock is a blast. There's something about Bowie, I'm not like, people are fanatic about Bowie. Huge movie fans. But something about that dude, he just was an all-around creative soul. No matter what it was, it was about creativity.

I think Alexander McQueen, the fashion designer, was a lot like that. No matter what, he had these crazy ideas and then made all these other things out of it. So those 2 stand out in addition to architecture. Love photography. I love, skateboard culture's a blast. Motorcycles are fun. Drinking.

Christian Solorzano [43:58]

And one of the questions that we always like to ask our guests is, given that you have Chicago roots, something that the Chicago Graphic Design Club is always thinking about is just discovering ways to make our community better and connect designers with one another. I think, I feel like the social media and the pandemic and just like various other factors sometimes tend to really put a dent in how people stay connected.

And I think I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure you've experienced this or you've seen it, but I think for me, when I was a design student, when I was a freshman, I felt like Chicago had a pretty strong community. I remember, I remember sometimes even feeling overwhelmed by how many events were happening. I didn't know which ones to go to because there was just so many of them.

And I'd be like, what the hell? I want to go to all of them, but I can't. And one of the things that we try to do is we try to, yeah, just create these spaces for people to connect and for people to grow together and for people to learn, for people to sort of—

Francis [45:29]

Yeah, no, I get you. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [45:32]

So do you have any observations? Does Francis have any thoughts based on the philosophy of Francis of, focusing on the work. Yeah, just in Chicago or even just in general, how do you, what do you, what do you think the design community in general what do you think, how do you think it could get a good benefit and what do you think is needed?

Francis [45:57]

Yeah, I think that's a good question. I mean, I miss those days a lot, they were a lot of fun. He did say like there was a lot of design events and, they're done all corners of Chicago. Some of them cost money. So it was just, it was just a lot. It was a lot to do. The pandemic has been, has been weird. But I did this getting back to this quarterly report.

I found it just for this answer, but it's from, hang on a sec, December 27th, I think. And it's a big zero on it. It's like a bleed zero on some cardboard, it looks like. But I remember after Von Olber died and Viv Carl died, it was— think it was the same year, it was 2020.

And I remember, I don't know what it was, but I started to get, so depressed about just, the end of the year and, these design legends dying that I personally really liked. And I remember talking to David Carson, ironically, over Instagram about how it was just, a really dark time. And we agreed that we have this need to appreciate each other more Instead of like stabbing each other in the back or talking shit about them.

And I think that's something we don't talk about with that old '90s culture that was— there was a great community, but it was also a little bit of like heading, butting heads rather. Where I think today, if we continue the spirit of outreach and positivity and building each other up, I think that's only going to make it better.

So I think we just need more of it. Not that it's missing, it just needs to continue and sort of change the way that we encourage graphic design to be the thing, like build each other up through like, hey, that's a really good thing. Or hey man, that type, that type was awesome. We just, we just don't do enough of that anymore.

Christian Solorzano [47:49]

Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the, I guess that's one of the reasons why the Graphic Design Club actually started is because I felt like there wasn't really a way for people to talk to each other about design. I think for a long time, I think when I graduated from college, this was in 2016, I was seeing that a lot of design organizations, the programming that they were putting out was— and I think it's essential.

I think it's great, but it was mostly focused around like networking and building your career and like professional development and like you'd have these amazing events where, you'd get coached on your resume and like how to interview and like how to do all these like soft skills. But then, when it comes down to it, it's like, all right, like you're a nice person. You could talk about your work, like you could do, you're a decent person, but—

Francis [49:00]

I went from nice to decent.

Christian Solorzano [49:02]

Nice, decent. I think they're both, they mean the same thing. Decent, nice. But yeah, like no one, I, I just really missed seeing, like sitting down with someone and talking about typography and not really coming up with, not even coming up with answers to our questions. But if anything, just having more questions. And for me, I just think that critical dialogue is so important. And that, and I would say like, that's one of the things that I see is really missing.

Francis [49:38]

But I think like on that note though, like I hate giving social media any credit, but like the ability to reach out to someone that you respect as a designer. It's really easy. So I had— I was doing this project and I had to do a— someone had requested a slab serif to be italicized.

And I didn't even— I didn't know the answer? I'm like, can you do that? I wasn't sure. And I've been doing this for 20-something years and I was just like freaked out. I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna break some cardinal sin of typography and get asked that for the rest of my life because I italicized a slab serif. And you have so many like great typographers, either Kavanagh or PK, like that, follow you.

But I remember reaching out to Tobias Frere-Jones and just asking him over Instagram. Yeah. If this was logically okay to do. And I got it. I got an answer back, and he's like, you know what? I don't know if it's ever been done before, but I guess you could do it. That's like his response.

Christian Solorzano [50:43]

So you got his blessing.

Francis [50:44]

So, but it looked like hell.

Christian Solorzano [50:45]

It looked awful.

Francis [50:47]

So I went back to the original, but I guess the point is like that level of communication is possible. You just need to do it and take the step and talk about graphic design.

Christian Solorzano [51:00]

Yeah. And I, and I think it's surprising how easy some people, I think it's one, yes, it's really easy to reach out, but I, but I've also found it very surprisingly surprising how nice people actually are and like how people are actually willing to respond. And I know, I know, I see on your— like, I see on your Instagram, you seem to be pretty much best friends with David Carson.

Francis [51:30]

Yeah, which, well, half of that, by the way, is like insane with— I don't know why I do this, but sometimes I'll respond to them in the comments like I'm actually having a conversation with them. I'll even say to Chris Ashworth, oh, this looks really cool, text me later. And I'm like, I've never met him once, never talked to him. But it's kind of funny. But you're right. I think, I think you're right. The people like having conversations.

And as long as you focus on what you want to focus on, if you want to focus on Typography. And if it's okay to italicize a slab serif, make that step. And it's a blast. Just really fun. Just, I really love this industry. It's a great time.

Christian Solorzano [52:19]

Yeah, that's great. It's great to hear. And another question that I have for you a lot of well, not a lot, but there's a good amount of our listeners that are probably young designers or people, transitioning from like changing careers into design.

What sort of advice or what sort of, for anyone that is listening, yeah, like what would you have to, what would you say to someone that is maybe in those, in that first step of their career where they're sort of figuring things out and maybe, feeling a little bit insecure or yeah, feeling like an imposter or whatever.

Francis [53:03]

Well, first of all, that's totally normal. That's the field. That's the whole, the whole concept of creativity is you make something that is true to yourself that only you could have done, and you put all this time into it, and it's hard, and you're unsure, and is this even going to be good enough? What are they going to think? And then you put it out there, and the very first thing that comes back is a judgment.

And a lot of creatives are just generally introverts and insecure to begin with. So just imagine going through that whole process. It's just emotionally, mentally draining.

But I think for young designers, just know that that's okay. It's just absolutely okay to feel that way. But on the flip side, just stop caring. The second that you just stop and you just say, I just don't give a shit about this, and you just focus on doing something that you believe in, and it's just beautiful— like, that to me is a success. And if someone doesn't like it, man, who— just who cares?

I'm trying to keep it PG for you, but you know what I mean? Once you get over that hurdle of just believing in yourself and making something beautiful, I can guarantee you'll have a very successful and happy graphic design career.

Christian Solorzano [54:22]

Yeah. And I think something that I see you do very well is that you actually embrace those moments of, yeah, like insecurity or frustration or fear. And you sort of, it doesn't seem, I don't get the impression that you run away from those emotions. I feel like you almost lean into them and you—

Francis [54:42]

Yeah, but I mean, that takes time, but I think, yeah. For a young designer to realize, those are feelings too, and they're worthy of creativity. It doesn't always have to be like a beautiful barn on a rolling hill with a sunset behind it. Oh, that's pretty, just make something that's beautiful to you and means something. I think that's the key.

I will say, I think for young designers though, there's a couple things I wish, I wish, I wish young designers would appreciate that it's okay to take time into something, that you don't need to just post something. It's all right to just take a step back and self-critique. I always think like critiquing yourself is sort of missing today because you make something and you post it.

You don't, you don't realize like, you know what, man, like likes and followers, like none of that stuff matters. The time or frequency of you post, like none of that matters. So if you don't like it yet, you're not confident, pick it up tomorrow. I don't know, there's just no point in trying to rush through something when you can appreciate that really good design sometimes takes a really long time.

Christian Solorzano [55:55]

Yeah, I like those answers. So we're almost at time, but I have a few, just a few more questions. So, and these are hopefully going to be some fun questions, but if you could only use one typeface for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Francis [56:21]

That's a horrible question. That's an absolutely horrible question. How can you— I don't know, like the easy answer is to pick something with a million families, like Universe or something. I mean, you have like everything you need. But wow, that's gonna get boring after a while. And then I would say maybe Futura because I really like it, but then so does the entire planet. And all right, maybe that's gonna get old. And then you could do a really— you know what would be cool?

If you picked Dido, like a really like old school serif that you could like break and cut and bend and have all these different shapes to it. There's something about putting those really thin serifs together and make— it's almost like it becomes like a painting with all these curves and serifs. There's just beautiful shapes. Yeah, so I probably just picked Universe.

Christian Solorzano [57:16]

Okay, and I know that you, you've been— I don't know what the, what the update is, but I know you've been working on a, on a typeface for some time.

Francis [57:24]

Oh my God, oh my God, dude, that's horrible. Over 2 years, I keep working on it. I hate to say it, but I think I might have to start over. It's going to look exactly the same. The whole point is I was trying to do this slab serif that wasn't too heavy, but not too light either. So there's these great slabs out there, but could you do something that was just slightly more refined? But not too far where it felt too thin either.

But then I'm like, oh man, does that defeat the whole purpose of a slab serif then? Which it probably does. But then I got like really into some of the letter forms, and I always remember from the movie Helvetica, about the fact that like it's not, it's not the shape of the letter, but it's the shape in between the letters that really make up typography. And now, the more that I think about it, I just I just really don't like it anymore.

Yeah, I don't know, it's really hard. You've got, like I said, you've got Peking and Jackson Cavanaugh as part of, as part of the club or speakers, but it's just, it's really tough. Yeah, it just, I just want to start over. I don't know if they ever feel like that.

Christian Solorzano [58:44]

Yeah, I think because I, I've tried designing a typeface in the past and I think I sort of gave up on trying to make it look good and sort of went the opposite route. And I'm almost trying to see how bad I could— like, how bad of a job I could do. And just, yeah, just flipping it in reverse. Because yeah, I agree. And I think, and I think there's just so many typefaces out there. And I think—

Francis [59:13]

But that's the same as the industrial designer Saga. Do we need another—

Do we need another typeface? I don't know. And then on the flip side, it's like, once you actually do it and you realize how hard it is, then you just are more appreciative of the fact that really great typefaces exist. That's actually another piece of advice for young designers, is buy a typeface. Actually go and buy it. And you'll actually appreciate all the time it takes to make it. And then you'll appreciate the design because you spent money on it.

It's yours, and you're gonna actually care for every single letter. And I think that's just a really nice lesson to not only appreciate typographers but appreciate the time it takes to do really good graphic design.

Christian Solorzano [60:03]

Yeah, I agree. Another question. Is who or what would be— yeah, who would be your dream clients? What would Francis love to work on? What would that client be and what would that project be?

Francis [60:20]

I don't know. I got one of my favorite artists is Egon Schiele, but we had to design like the logo for the website and it was all of his merchandise and I just wrote them out of the blue. I'm like, hey man, can I just remake this logo? It's just not Good. And they're like, sure. But, I made like, I don't know, 100 of them. But that was a blast. That was, that was a lot of fun.

I would say any client that is open to anything— it sounds really dumb, but those clients that just trust you and they believe in you and they already like your aesthetic and they just want to give you a runway to make something like—

I don't really care what industry it's in. It's those clients that appreciate hard work and graphic design and just the spirit of creativity are the ones that I really get excited about. And they're— they want to see you try things and they want to see you fail and they want to see you be really proud of something that you made and you made it for them. Those are great clients.

Christian Solorzano [61:22]

Yeah, I agree. Another question is, what is your favorite— do you have a favorite medium or material that you like to work with? I know you use a lot of glue, tape.

Francis [61:39]

Does paper count?

Christian Solorzano [61:40]

I guess, yeah, you could say paper.

Francis [61:42]

Yeah, for sure. I have so much paper. That was part of our, part of our BFA degree was learning. We had Mohawk paper reps come in and they would teach us about paper, which is like the weirdest thing. We'd like feel all this stuff and learn about weights and we'd learn about, the coating and uncoated. And I remember specifically about one of my professors telling me about uncoated paper and printing serif typography and having the ink fill up, the hole in the a.

You as a designer have to think about that. Is this going to be a problem? Is the paper stock and all this stuff. So I don't know. I was always just fascinated by paper.

Christian Solorzano [62:29]

Yeah. I remember at my, at one of my previous jobs, we used to do a lot of printed work. And there was like a paper specialist that would come in and he was always dressed really nice. Like just very, like everything just super polished. Like he looked like he was going to a wedding and he'd have a little briefcase and he'd open it up and it was just like stacks of really luxurious paper.

And he'd like lay it on the floor and he'd, or on the, on the table and he'd have like gloves and he'd be like handling it and like explaining to you like the differences between like these 2 papers that looked identical. But somehow, worked differently with ink and I mean, yeah, I love that stuff.

Francis [63:19]

I still print out a lot of my, a lot of my work that I, fine-tune on the computer. So I'll do a lot of like the textures and the materials. I do a lot of that, with a cutting board and tape and glue and paper and ink. And I have like 3 or 4 bottles of these different values of ink washes that I like to spray and then paint with once the paper's soaking wet. They let that dry, and then usually I'll scan that in.

But then sometimes I like to do the typesetting of longer text on the computer just because it's impossible to get that same level of clarity, I think, at smaller point sizes. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [63:59]

And then just a few more questions. What would be the— what would be the one film that would sort of encapsulate the spirit of Francis, man, that's like the best question.

Francis [64:19]

Pass.

Christian Solorzano [64:20]

Pass? Can you pass? I don't know.

Francis [64:22]

No, you can't, because there's so— I have so— I have so many.

Christian Solorzano [64:25]

Or just the first one that comes to mind.

Francis [64:27]

I don't know, man. Anything by David Byrne, I would probably say. Or go back to the original, Twin Peaks series from the '90s. I think that's, that's— I don't want to say that's a good answer because that was my answer, but the whole point, that's when it took place, but it also had so much structure to it. Yeah, but then it was also psychotic at the same time. Not a film, TV series, but yeah, Twin Peaks.

Christian Solorzano [64:55]

Okay, it's a great soundtrack. Just everything about it is like, it's a, it's a whole world. Whole universe.

Francis [65:03]

That gets back to like the Bowie conversation we had. I mean, just the fact that guy like changed personalities and had a whole album as this other persona was just so cool. I don't know.

Christian Solorzano [65:16]

Yeah, he's— I would say like David Bowie, for me, he's one of those artists that it's— whenever I'm seeing him like perform or listening to his music, I just automatically feel charged to go make something. You could just feel the His level of commitments and like everything that he did, like he just—I mean, I think there's something superhuman about someone that produced so much work—not just music, but film and paintings and everything.

Francis [65:53]

Like he's incredible. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [65:57]

All right. So. And then a similar question, what would be the music album that would sort of also encapsulate the spirit of Francis?

Francis [66:08]

These are horrible. Pass again. You can't pass. Oh my God, I don't know. I mean, I just talked about Bowie, but okay, I don't know. That's just— this is way too long of an answer. How about I'll give you the short version? There's this artist out, Perfume Genius. Okay. He just— I don't know, he just has this really great who cares attitude with beautiful music on top of it. Okay. And how could you not? How could you not appreciate that?

Yeah, this person making something Beautiful, and this is their own point of view, and they just don't give a shit about what anybody else thinks.

Christian Solorzano [66:59]

And I guess just before we wrap up, if anyone wants to get in touch with you or find you or anything like that, yeah, how do people get a hold of Francis? Instagram. What is it?

Francis [67:15]

Design. Do you say the at? You don't say the at, do you? @design.francis. And then I think the website is francis.design.

Christian Solorzano [67:29]

Yeah, that's correct.

Francis [67:31]

Yeah, design.francis on Instagram. It's a funny story is I tried getting Francis, but it's like this Italian— it's like this Italian yacht manufacturer that's named Francis. And I get these emails like in Italian every like, I don't know, like once a month. And it's all about like the yachting industry.

Christian Solorzano [67:52]

Well, very similar.

Francis [67:54]

It's a face to what you do. Designed by Francis.

Christian Solorzano [67:59]

I actually, I have, I have a few books on the artist Francis Bacon. Oh yeah. And I always like see the spine of the book and it just always makes me think that it's their books about Francis, you, because it'll just say Francis along the yeah, I appreciate that.

Francis [68:20]

I didn't do anything, but thank you.

Christian Solorzano [68:23]

Awesome. Cool. Well, this was great, and I'm glad that we finally got a chance to do this.

Francis [68:31]

Yeah, thank you very much. I mean, any— just to sort of back up Carl and Bob, I think the— I mean, this has just been an honor, and the people that you've had on both the podcasts and the live show, which has been phenomenal. Also to be included, I think is— yeah, it's a really great thing. So thank you for the time and keep doing what you're doing. Like I told you before, email.

I think it's really important to keep pushing graphic design and, getting the next generations interested in the craft and the industry. So thanks for doing all this. For sure.

Christian Solorzano [69:09]

Thank you for being a part of it. It's because of you guys that this is possible. By myself, this would be— yeah, it wouldn't be anything.

Francis [69:18]

So