Christian Solorzano [00:05]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club dedicated to bringing you conversations with Chicago's creative leaders. On this podcast, we'll explore the craft, theory, and practice of graphic design, plus discuss bold ideas that push the boundaries of what's possible and ways in which we can create a more thoughtful and inclusive community. To learn more about us, visit our website at www.chicagographicdesign.club or find us on social media. Special thanks to the Chicago band Eighties Slang for our theme music.

Grace Hamilton [00:44]

Thank you.

Christian Solorzano [00:57]

So hello, today I am your host Christian Solorzano, and I'm going to be interviewing Grace Hamilton, host of the podcast Design is not Neutral, a thesis project she created while at the University of Notre Dame. Her podcast tackles the roots of diversity within design, education, equity, and change. So welcome, Grace. Very happy to be speaking with you. How are you doing?

Grace Hamilton [01:21]

I'm good. How are you?

Christian Solorzano [01:23]

I am doing well. I'm happy that this is our first episode where we're doing like an episode crossover where we're speaking with another podcast. So it's really exciting.

Grace Hamilton [01:33]

Yeah, definitely. I'm excited.

Christian Solorzano [01:35]

So I want to hear about the inception of your podcast and how that came to be.

Grace Hamilton [01:42]

Sure. So I was in my second year at Notre Dame. And I was doing a lot of design work for a family— it's called Family Justice Center of St. Joseph County. And they primarily work with undocumented victims of domestic violence. So I was doing these pamphlets for them that helped victims better understand their legal rights in the country. And while I was doing this work, I kind of started thinking about how we design things.

Why we design things a particular way, why we're choosing the typefaces we choose. And in parallel to that, I was teaching my first design course at Notre Dame. And so I'm kind of standing up at the front of the room talking through all of these things on how to choose typefaces, how to arrange things, the proper amount of white space, all of the basic foundational design elements. And about halfway through, I just kind of was like, what am I even talking about?

These design rules just seem so arbitrary. And I felt that way when I was designing the pamphlets too. It just— I felt like I was still trying to design everything like marketing materials. And both of those things happening started getting me questioning the history of design, the rules, if you will, of design. And I came across this writing. I think it was called Design Thinking is Bullshit or something like that.

And it was posted by Jarrett Fuller, who hosts his own podcast called Scratching the Surface. And I didn't really know what I was doing, but I just really wanted to speak to him about his thoughts on design education. I think he's such an incredible educator and individual, and I really admired his podcast project. So I reached out to him, and we spoke for like an hour and a half. And I ended up turning that into my first episode.

He really inspired me to start my own podcast. I think it's just such a great way to spark conversation and also just have conversations with other people that I really admire and put those out into the world in a format that is, shareable for everybody else.

So that's kind of like the inception, I guess, of my podcast is I started to consider a lot of different things that had been affecting me in the classroom and outside of the classroom in terms of diversity in our design curriculum and the way we build our rules and the way we build pedagogy. And that all came into play when I created the podcast.

And since then I've reached out to people, and I've found that people are generally like very Open and willing to speak, especially in the design educators community, which has been amazing. Yeah, like the inception. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [04:53]

Yeah, I like that you mentioned Jared because he's certainly an inspiration for me, and I think for most, he's just such a great thinker, and it's been, yeah, it's just been amazing seeing, his evolution of his episodes just become what they are right now, and I absolutely love him. So I did listen to your interview with him. And it seemed like such a great conversation to be like a fly on the wall and be listening to what you guys were talking about.

So I like that you're thinking about some of design's implications as they relate to bigger issues, bigger social issues. But I want to step back even further. How did you get into graphic design? What was that introduction like?

Grace Hamilton [05:34]

Yeah, so I was I kind of knew what it was. I had an— I have an aunt who is a marketing strategist, and she was always kind of like, oh, there's this thing called graphic design. I feel like you might like it. But I was also interested in a lot of different types of design. I was really interested in fashion design and thought that was gonna be what I studied. And I started at Loyola, and I made my major painting drawing.

I really, looking back, I don't think I'm that good of a painter or drawer, but that was my major. Sorry. And one of a friend told me, oh, there's graphic design here. And I was like, okay. And my dad was like, that's a great marketable skill. You should make that your minor, just in case this whole like painting thing doesn't pan out.

So I ended up making it my minor, and then I went up for At Loyola, you do a portfolio review in your junior year where you basically— they tell you that you can be the major that you already are. And I went up for my painting drawing portfolio review, and I ended— I think I did it my senior year. I think I delayed it for some reason, and I did it my senior year, and they said no.

So I failed, and that meant that I would have to do it again the following year. And I just kind of took it as a sign that maybe it wasn't for me, and I had enough graphic design courses at that point that I could flip them, go part-time, and make it my major. And I did pass my graphic design portfolio review. So I would say it was pretty bad, honestly, at both things. And I tell my students that as well.

Just because you're not the best in the class right now doesn't mean that you won't be a successful graphic designer. What makes a successful graphic designer is just continuing to learn and build on the skills and be open to change. And that's what I kept doing throughout. But I didn't really know about it until I got to college. I kind of had heard about it, but I didn't— I wasn't aware. I'm also from, South Bend, Indiana. There is not, an artistic design community here.

So moving to Chicago definitely opened my eyes to that. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [07:55]

Well, I'm glad. It seems like it worked out because now you have your own show and you're doing amazing things. So I like, I like to hear that. I didn't have that experience, but I did have one teacher in college that told me that I should consider another profession.

Grace Hamilton [08:12]

Yeah, I had a professor tell me— I made a menu design and he told me that it looked like a cheap takeout restaurant. I was like, Okay.

Christian Solorzano [08:26]

There's nothing wrong with that?

Grace Hamilton [08:28]

I know. I was like, all right, well, that sounds good to me.

Christian Solorzano [08:31]

Yeah. And then I also remember when I had my first job out of college, first design job out of college, my boss at the time, he just thought I was like the worst designer ever. So I think those learning opportunities and those experiences usually propel you to, do bigger things.

Grace Hamilton [08:55]

So yeah, it's like revenge.

Christian Solorzano [08:57]

Yeah, exactly. But even though you didn't get into graphic design in college, were there any— even if it was subconsciously, was there any graphic design that was like drawing your attention even as a teenager, even in regards to music, movie covers, album covers? What kind of media were you consuming?

Grace Hamilton [09:23]

Yeah, I was really, like I said, I was really interested in fashion design and making and creating. And so I don't think that it was like so far out of line that I started doing graphic design. I just, I think I just simply wasn't aware of it. And I knew about fashion design because I watched a lot of Project Runway with my grandmother. So there was that like spark to make and to create and to design.

It just wasn't yeah, I did take a class when I was in college at Columbia College Chicago, and I remember that I— someone signed me up for a graphic design course and the fashion design. It was like a pre-college high school situation, and I was taking the train in from South Bend to Chicago at like 16. And I went to one day of graphic design and one day of fashion design, and I Had to pick one, I think, because they let you like choose your track.

And I was like, graphic design is not for me. I hate the computer. I'm out of here. And I still feel that way a little bit. I try to not let the computer inhibit what I want to make. And I tell my students that as well. So there was like sparks there. It just wasn't— yeah.

Christian Solorzano [10:43]

Yeah. And so you, you've been an educator at the University of Notre Dame for some time now. And how did that transition go from your early feelings towards graphic design? How have— how has that shifted over into you actually teaching now? And how do you bring some of your experience into your work?

Grace Hamilton [11:07]

Yeah, so I guess I can talk a little bit about like my career and how that shifted my perspective, because I think it really I did. I started working first for like a music label underneath Live Nation, which was like an electronic music label in LA. That was my first job. And I actually got it because they called the wrong Grace to come into the interview. And my portfolio was like, okay. And so they called the wrong Grace and they ended up really liking me.

So they hired me as like a freelance junior designer. And I kind of worked my way up into a graphic design position there. But I was working really hard to make up for that lost time of not being a graphic design major. Well, I was a graphic design major, but of kind of like filling those gaps, I guess, in my portfolio.

And from that, I think I really found a love for making on the computer that I didn't have before, I found that it actually like expanded the possibilities of what I could do versus inhibited me once I started getting really comfortable with teaching myself softwares and teaching myself new skills.

And I think that is something that I've continued throughout my career is just kind of like putting myself in these situations that might be a little bit uncomfortable, or I might not feel like I'm capable of, and then just working as hard as I can to accomplish whatever that is. So after I worked in music, I worked in fashion. So I kind of combined my 2 interests, and I worked in New York for a few brands.

And I think that kind of resilience and teaching yourself is something that I bring into the classroom a lot. In that I want students— I have a large mixture of students in my class. They're not all graphic design majors. I have a lot of, business students. It's Notre Dame. So that's like most of the school is business majors, or like math science majors.

And what I want them to, take away from the class is just something that can help them in their respective careers that they will go into. So I think just I guess, resilience and tinkering and making, all of those things are definitely built into my foundational design class and something that I want them to take away from the course, whether or not they're graphic designers or not. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [13:57]

And what type of enthusiasm or what do you see students coming into the classroom wanting to learn, or— because I'm always really interested in how, new generations of graphic designers think about the profession and sort of how, yeah, how they bring their point of view to the table.

Grace Hamilton [14:20]

Yeah, I think Notre Dame is a really interesting school to teach graphic design at, because, like I said, a lot of the students are not Even if they're a graphic design major, they're sometimes a double major in the business school in marketing or something. So they're coming to the class almost wanting design to inform and help them in another career most of the time.

And I have had a lot of students end up falling in love with graphic design and making that their major, which is always like a great experience to have. But I think it's interesting that most of them are coming in not gunning for being like a rockstar designer. And I don't know what that would be like at a different school where that is happening. But I find that students are really interested in how design can help them in their own respective careers, like I said.

And I kind of love that design is everywhere, and design can like, I had a science major, and she was interested in making her own data visualizations for her other projects.

So just like little ways where design can help. One thing that is interesting is I feel like they're not as— I think because I grew up with technology changing and shifting so much, I was more apt to like figure things out for myself because my teachers didn't necessarily have any kind of like technology background. They are not as like self-sufficient in that way.

It's almost like they are confused by like where their files go on their computers, like little things like that, but then they're super advanced on their iPads. So it's like really funny to see that difference. Yeah. I think I noticed. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [16:23]

I've noticed that too sometimes, especially like now that most, a lot of us are working remotely, is that yes, we are these tech savvy people, but sometimes we can't figure out how to share our screen or how to like ourselves. And it's just, we're supposed to be experts at this.

Grace Hamilton [16:40]

Yeah. It's so funny. And I'm like, didn't you grow up with this? But I'm like, no, they're all iPad kids. They all had their iPads like on their hands from when they were little. So. Makes sense. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [16:51]

And you have a large interest in history of design and finding ways to explore the ways that design curriculums are presented to us. So how does that historical, impact shape how you teach? And if so, do you talk about that with your students?

Grace Hamilton [17:18]

Yeah. So it is introductory design. I do think when I am able to teach higher-level courses, I'll probably speak to that a little bit more. But I do talk a little bit about, I guess, design education as a whole.

And I present it in a way where it's less about rules and less about pushing this kind of modernist agenda and more in a way of, here are a lot of different design designers hear a lot of different styles, and none of them are wrong, and none of them are right, and you can find your own voice within this space. So in that way, I presented a bit differently in an introductory course than I think other professors do, or I'm guessing, I'm not 100% sure.

But when I started at Notre Dame, I got a list of type designers that had been in the curriculum for a long time, and it was like 20 white men.

That was the curriculum that I was, was— had been taught previously. And in no way was Notre Dame saying, you have to teach us that. And I want to make sure that that's clear. I was able to develop my own course and kind of sort through what I wanted to teach and why. And so I knew immediately that there was definitely an issue. And I thought back to my own design education.

And the people that we continue to kind of view as, I guess, like idols in the design community. And it is really homogeneous. You have like mostly white men from Europe or the US, and then maybe some white women, and that's it. So I kind of wanted to shift that in my course to make it more contemporary, more open. And have them looking at places outside of even graphic design in terms of design history.

I think like the first step is expanding that definition of graphic design to just design. I kind of think that graphic, it's time to go.

Christian Solorzano [19:26]

You can't say that on this podcast. Just kidding.

Grace Hamilton [19:30]

Sorry.

Christian Solorzano [19:31]

No, yeah, I agree. I think, yeah, I think even the term graphic designer Could mean so many things. I think when I first got interested in graphic design, it was the graph— like, the role of a graphic designer was like very specific. And yeah, it's just so broad and it can mean UX, UI, it could mean so many things. So many things. So I guess my question to you is, what— how do you define a designer or a graphic designer?

What is what does a designer mean to you?

Grace Hamilton [20:05]

Yeah, that's interesting. I think design should be expanded to include the everyday in terms of craft or designing your outfit for the day or designing the food on your plate. I think that there should be an expanded definition of design to incorporate all of those things, because I think design really flows through every part of our culture at this point. And I guess I argue for a total expansion of the word.

So I think to be a designer today means— and this is similar to what a lot of design theorists are saying— but means that you're building culture, you're building community. You're making something, and that can mean a lot of different things. I think the limited definition excludes a lot of people that might not have access to technology or higher education. And so expanding this definition makes it more open and the possibilities more endless, which I think is a really nice thing.

Christian Solorzano [21:30]

Yeah. And how do you draw the line between determining what is the design that has— and there might not be an answer to this, but how do you define design that has value versus design that does not have any value?

Grace Hamilton [21:47]

Meaning like profit?

Christian Solorzano [21:51]

I mean, I think that's— maybe that's a little bit more open to interpretation, but I think we could argue that there are certainly certain types of design that are more— that lead to better outcomes and that lead to more equity as opposed to—

Grace Hamilton [22:16]

Yeah, I think it's important. I mean, when I'm speaking of design in the everyday, that's not— it's impacting yourself.

Maybe one other person. When you start putting design out there into the world that millions of people will be impacted by, then obviously there's more of a level of care and consideration that needs to occur. And finding your place within design history and finding out what impacts you're going to make, and really thinking critically about your design work, I think, is important. But I think it's almost like starting to consider the things you do on a daily basis.

Will almost help influence those decisions if you are a designer that's putting things out for millions of people to see. So this care and consideration that's coming in your daily actions, maybe you start to bring that into your overall design practice. But I do think there needs to be more. I think Canada does a better job of it. There's more like design ethics and design history for those individuals that are going to be doing work like that and working with kind of like more sensitive populations.

I think that's what you're talking about, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Christian Solorzano [23:39]

Because what I'm interested in is I think because design is such a— well, for one, similar to design thinking, like it's become such a buzzword and such a blanket statement that implies that anything that undergoes design thinking will lead to some altruistic outcome. And over the past few years, I've seen myself more and more conversations around designing for good and design for change. And sometimes I'm a little bit skeptical about it because it's become like such a buzzword.

And I'm always, I'm always just very curious of how institutions and organizations define designing something that's actually socially good. And because I, because again, I do a lot of portfolio reviews, and I see a lot of younger designers that always tend to say that they're designers for good, and that they want to create the best experiences for all. But I think that's such a— it's such a big responsibility, and I don't think it's as easy as having one statement that says, we design for good.

Grace Hamilton [24:53]

No, definitely not. I think it's like— I think there's a design agency, his name is George, he's in Chicago.

Christian Solorzano [25:06]

Oh yeah, George I, Greater Good.

Grace Hamilton [25:09]

Yes, I think that he has a level of criticality to his practice and to his design studio that I have yet to see in other, I guess, like design for good studios. Like he actively constantly rejects clients, and they can be like huge clients, and he's like, look, these practices that you're doing, even though they're disconnected from the project that I'm working on, like I don't want to be a part of this.

So I think if you're a designer at that level, I hesitate to say that. I think it's hard for young designers to, reject projects from companies, because how will they ever become designers? And I don't know, that's like a whole mind trip, and we're living in a capitalist society, and I don't know. But I do think at that level, if you're able to say, hey, no, look at these practices you're doing. I'm not gonna take you as a client. I think that's incredible and amazing.

And I think that everybody, every designer that's at that level should 100% be doing that if you can afford to do so. But I do think that if we had more design ethics courses and more design history courses in undergraduate schools, I think that we would be producing a better generation of designers because they would be thinking more critically about their design work. And when they're saying design for good, maybe they would— it would actually be.

Because, yeah, I think it's such a tricky thing. It's what my thesis is on, and it's still really tricky to me because it Design itself is defined through this capitalist society, and we're living in the capitalist society. And so in the same way that there's like no ethical consumption under capitalism, I think it's challenging to create an ethical design, a fully ethical design practice under capitalism, unless you're just designing for like knitting a sweater for yourself. And even then, it's like, where is this yarn from?

Where are these knitting needles from? I don't know. So yeah, really tricky. But I do think the answer for me would be more design ethics and design history courses, so we can prevent students from making more harmful design choices and more community design focused. I think giving communities the tools and resources that they need to come up with these solutions for themselves.

Maybe you're a facilitator or you're a grant writer or you're saying, hey, what do you need from me versus coming in and being like, you need a website, I'm gonna make your website, and then they don't need the website. Things like that would probably be good. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [28:11]

Yeah, because I want some of this. So the studio that you mentioned, what I really like about them is that Their ethos seems to be ingrained into everything that they do. And I think it's about creating that culture of where that's just the baseline. It's no longer about you doing good as like your differentiator, but that's just like the bare minimum.

Grace Hamilton [28:32]

Right? Yeah, I think they're called— it's Greater Good Studio, right?

Christian Solorzano [28:37]

Yeah. So I think like for me, I think the solution would be to just get closer to that culture where it becomes normal to have these conversations of like ethics and equity and access.

And I think right now we're still at that point where like, of course we all want to say that we're like for all of this stuff. But I think in order to actually be a practitioner of like values and ethics, I think it requires that you sort of unlearn a lot of what you thought you knew.

And that you, I don't know, that you become a beginner again and that you humble yourself and that you present yourself less of a, less of as an authority and more of like an active listener. And one of the fascinating things that I always like to recognize is the power of just co-designing with the people that you're Actually designing for. And I think I've seen so much of the design profession appear as this, savior that's gonna come in and just, solve everything.

And it, and it just doesn't— I don't know, I'm just skeptical about that methodology of design as this thing that's just gonna make the world a better place. I think it— I think that dialogue between the designer and the communities and the people that are gonna be impacted. I think that's so important. And I think until we could break down that wall of us versus them, or us and them, I just, me personally, I don't see us closer to that reality.

Grace Hamilton [30:25]

It's interesting. I think I'm in an interesting position. I have a lot of privilege, obviously, but I, I'm from South Bend, and South Bend is where Notre Dame is. And for Notre Dame, it's almost like this very elite institution in this town that has been really impacted by the collapse of like the automobile industry and all these factories. And I grew up here with a— without really a connection to the university.

Like my family has been here for a few generations and Hearing— once I started my graduate degree at Notre Dame, hearing the way that they talk about like saving the South Bend community is really odd to me because it's exactly what you're talking about. It's like them coming up with these like community-focused projects where they're coming in and like speaking down to community members instead of being like, hey, how can we like work together on this project? It's like—

This is what we're gonna do for you. So it's exactly what you're talking about. There's not that, reciprocity, I guess, of conversation. And I think that is critical. And I think it's luckily given me, a more grounded perspective on some of those projects when I'm working with community partners in South Bend because they— I don't feel like I'm on one side or the other.

Christian Solorzano [32:05]

Yeah, no, definitely. So a lot of like, what I guess, what do you see as the biggest where do you see the biggest areas of improvement happening right now within design? I know we talked a little bit about more of these conversations happening. But is there anything else that is maybe— I think it's easy to get pessimistic and to talk about like the things that are wrong, and I think it's good to have those conversations. But is there like— I guess so.

One of the questions that we asked one of our previous, our previous guests, and I want to ask you the same question, but within all of this stuff, where do you find hope? And where do you draw that inspiration? To, keep propelling your work to move forward?

Grace Hamilton [32:56]

I think there's a big turn, at least within my design practice and with my students, to— I'm trying to turn it more into, an autoethnographic version of design. So where we're making things that are more personal to us, and I think that's a really kind of interesting and beautiful concept in something like design, which is so profit and professional driven.

What does it look like to make a logo for yourself, to make a website for your mom, to make, just things that are a little bit more personal in terms of projects? I think is a really interesting way to approach graphic design because I don't think it's been approached that way for so long. I think I really liked— Paula Scher did this graphic design exploration where she drew all of her different haircuts, something like that, throughout the years.

And I just think the whimsy and the playfulness of that is what's I'm trying to have drive my practice and my teaching now versus this kind of like profit-driven design practice. And I think people really enjoy, even in a portfolio, like I'm always thinking students are still looking to get a job, so they're still looking to get internships.

But I think these projects, even within a portfolio and even within a more market-driven design world, still have weight and still have importance, and people can see the play and exploration and the ideation that comes from them. So that's what I'm trying to do now is get back to that state of play and get back to personal design projects and kind of have that feed my professional work as well.

Christian Solorzano [35:01]

Yeah, one of my, one of my good friends, one day he mentioned something that just blew my mind, and we were talking about this very thing, and he said that the projects that he wants to be involved in are those projects that are good for him.

I was like, that's so interesting because I just never thought about that. And because, yeah, we, we're doing the work and we should not be doing— I mean, again, this comes from like a place of privilege, I suppose, but we should try to give ourselves that opportunity to create work that is Good for us, that it's good for us mentally, physically, and then have that inform the work that perhaps is maybe not the most exciting.

So are there any personal projects that you're currently exploring, or how do you play?

Grace Hamilton [35:52]

Yeah, well, I guess my personal project right now is my thesis project. But I have my podcast, and then I started— I wanted to come up with a piece of curriculum that was like so out of the box and feminist and personal and nonprofit-driven and like community-focused, I guess.

So I started doing knitting workshops because it's something that I, I've grown up doing and a design practice that I've always loved, but is very gendered in that it's not seen as something that we would ever teach in a design classroom, right? Maybe like a fibers art course, but that would be the only place that I think I've ever seen Knitting Incorporated. But it's a design practice that's been around for thousands of years, and it shouldn't be this kind of like gendered practice.

It's just that it's mostly old white women that are doing it. But historically, it's been in every culture. And I started doing these workshops with students, maybe like 4 to 6 students, and I had this idea that I was like gonna come in and teach them about the history of knitting and talk about, the gendered, whatever, history. And when I started leading the workshops, I just kind of threw that all out the window because I was like, well, they're having such a good time.

And they're all talking to each other, and they don't usually do that. They didn't know each other, and they were all having, really interesting conversations in, the hour that we knit together. And when I'm in a design classroom where they're all sitting in front of their individual monitors or laptops, they usually don't talk to each other like that until like the last 2 weeks of class.

So in this like 1 hour, they created a community together that I had wanted in my classroom for a really long time. So this semester I incorporated it earlier in the class, and I had them knit for like an hour, and I've found that the classroom has just become so much more collaborative even after that hour. And the conversations that they have end up being about the things that I wanted to bring up anyway.

And it's less about like me being up here preaching down to them and more about this like knitting circle space where they're all— they all feel very open to share. Their opinions and express their ideas. And I think that's really wonderful, and something that I was struggling to kind of pull out of them before that. So that's my personal project right now, is knitting workshops with students.

And I kind of love that they get the opportunity to like fail a lot too, in a very quick amount of time, and just have to keep being persistent with it. And they don't walk away with like a product. They walk away with a skill. Which I think is wonderful, and it's not a skill that will make them money. It's just a skill that can be a nice hobby for them.

I had a student come send me an email over winter break, and she had knit a whole scarf from my workshop, which was awesome.

Christian Solorzano [39:14]

So yeah. I love that.

Grace Hamilton [39:16]

So how do you—

Christian Solorzano [39:17]

How do you— because that's— so I, I've been, I've been teaching now for a little bit, and that's something that I'm trying to figure out myself is how do you— like, what do you do to get— because sometimes I've noticed that the students in the classroom are maybe a little bit more reserved and like not so willing to like talk with each other.

And I don't want to be the person that's forcing conversation to happen, but at the same time, I want them to, yeah, to become friends and to speak and to share their experiences with one another. And it always happens towards the end of the class.

Grace Hamilton [39:58]

I know. Yeah. Have you— have you—

Christian Solorzano [40:00]

Is there anything you've been doing to sort of foster that community within the classroom?

Grace Hamilton [40:06]

Yeah, I think it doesn't have to be knitting necessarily. I think it can be a variety of things, but I think this process of making something together with your hands not on a computer, not individual, is really wonderful. And this process of kind of them all doing something that they've never done before.

So we did one where I also had someone from the library who's like a professional bookbinder come in, and we all like sat on the floor and folded these like paper books, and that was really effective too. So I feel like it can be just something to like Almost lighten that, professional, intensity that comes with graphic design and, staring at your computer for 2 and a half hours to really, break up that awkwardness, I guess, is for lack of a better word.

Christian Solorzano [41:02]

Yeah. Yeah, I know. I've been— I think the further I get into my career, the more I despise the computer because it's just so it's just so— it's, I don't know, it's bad for your eyes.

Grace Hamilton [41:17]

It's bad. I know. I try to have them plan out as much as they can on paper too first, and then go into the computer. So that's like they have their plan and then they're— or on their iPads. They love to draw on their iPads too. So that works as well. But yeah, I do love Figma. I will be honest. I love that you can be a little bit more collaborative in that design software than Adobe products. So, well, now it's an Adobe product, but yeah.

Christian Solorzano [41:46]

Of course, everything's gonna become an Adobe product.

Grace Hamilton [41:50]

I know, I know. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [41:52]

So what's inspiring you lately outside of design and outside of everything that we've been talking about? What are— I'm always interested in just hearing from our guests, what is their life outside of design and how does that shape what you do?

Grace Hamilton [42:11]

Yeah, I went to New York like 3 weeks ago, I think, and I went to the MoMA, and I really wanted— I was interested to check out 2 things. One was a video game design exhibit, and then the other one was their community space. I wanted to see like what they do in that space, because that's something I'm really interested in. And the video game design exhibit was really cool, and both were like exactly what I wanted.

They were both really participatory design exhibits, like the video game one. You could play all these different video games throughout time, and I loved that. Once again, just like that play through design and kind of like experiencing it for yourself. And then the other one was, I think it was called Black Power Naps, and it was a room where it was talking about like rest, particularly for BIPOC individuals, but for everyone, and how we don't prioritize rest in our society right now.

So they just had a bunch of like beds, and you could take your shoes off and just like lay in these beds, and then they had a little like shared library too, and that was the whole exhibit. You were just supposed to lay there, and I kind of love that was like a— I don't know, like a design. Yeah, that's amazing.

Christian Solorzano [43:40]

Yeah, well, it's interesting because it looks like those, things like taking naps or going for a walk or stepping away from the computer or being offline. I see those Actions becoming more and more of like a luxury because we don't give ourselves the opportunity to do those things. So the fact that there's an exhibition that encourages people to rest is almost a little bit eerie because it's—

Grace Hamilton [44:10]

It is eerie. Yeah. But it makes you really consider things and oh wow, I really can't just like relax. I also I would say that I am also like a really big fan of like very trashy TV shows. So I watch Love Island every single night, the UK version. So that is a piece of media that I am consuming every day. What's that show about?

Christian Solorzano [44:43]

I could imagine that it's about people finding love on an island.

Grace Hamilton [44:47]

It's not even an island, I don't think. But basically, all these people, these British people, they are in this kind of like community together. It's like a pool, and they're there for like 8 weeks, and people get kicked off regularly if they don't like partner up. And at the end, you could like win a lot of money. So you're always trying to figure out like who's playing a game and who's in it for love. That's pretty much the synopsis. But they have it.

It's a really big deal in the UK. People watch it every single night. I think it's entertaining. So that's what I've been doing. Yeah, some more highbrow and lowbrow.

Christian Solorzano [45:24]

I mean, I think it's important. I certainly am too embarrassed to mention what I consume because it's—

Grace Hamilton [45:34]

I think everyone's got all kinds of stuff. Yeah, of course.

Christian Solorzano [45:37]

And I think it's important. So our listeners are— so we have listeners that are students and enthusiasts and professionals and sort of all throughout the design spectrum. Is there any, words of wisdom or advice that you have for anyone listening based on our conversation?

Grace Hamilton [46:00]

Yeah, I think not being afraid to fail your way into things. I think failure is really Good, and I think that it needs to be more accepted and admitted by people. I think it's okay to fail, and I think that it can push you in the correct direction that you're supposed to be in. So accepting your failures and making the best of them, I think, is really critical.

I've never been good at school, and I think that I finally, found myself in like a graduate degree where I'm directing my own projects. But I think that Being comfortable with maybe things not being right for you and finding the right things for you. So yeah, I think being good with failure and keeping— keep going on. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [46:55]

And I always like that when I also think like just opening up about your failure with other people creates that like vulnerable space where people could, be like, hey, I feel like that too. And I saw a LinkedIn post the other day, and it was like the CEO, and they were talking about how when they were in school, they were, they were always getting detention. They're always in the principal's office. They're just like troublemakers.

And they wrote this article about how the people that tend to fail or to be the troublemakers are usually the ones that are more willing to challenge authority and to like, ask big questions and all that stuff. And it's just reassuring to know that there's like other people that were also like that.

Grace Hamilton [47:40]

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I always had like learning anxiety, like anxiety around like tests or exams. And I had like various diagnoses and like ADD and like not auditory processing, things like that just made it really difficult for me to learn. And I think it was just because we are continuing to teach in the same kind of patriarchal way that doesn't include a lot of different neurodivergent types of people.

And I think that has led me to challenge authority and challenge the educational space and how we teach. So yeah, I think it's a good thing. Yeah, I think everything should be challenged and questioned a lot.

Christian Solorzano [48:33]

I agree. Yeah, awesome. Well, we're almost at time, but I just want to say thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview. I am a big fan of your podcast. I love the branding of it, one.

Grace Hamilton [48:48]

Oh, thank you.

Christian Solorzano [48:49]

That's the one when I, when I, when I first saw it, that's the first thing that drew my attention, and then I read more about it. I'm like, all right, this is really good. I love the— your type choices and your color scheme and your black and white photography.

Grace Hamilton [49:03]

And thank you.

Christian Solorzano [49:04]

Everything that you talk about.

Grace Hamilton [49:05]

Yeah, thank you so much.

Christian Solorzano [49:07]

Awesome. All right. Well, I look forward to speaking more, and I look forward to seeing, yeah, just what other episodes that you do. And if anyone wants to get in touch with you, how could people find you or reach out to you?

Grace Hamilton [49:24]

Yeah, so I'm not on social media too much, but my Instagram, my podcast Instagram handle is @designisnotneutral. So that would be the best way to keep in touch with me. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [49:40]

And anything we should be looking out for, any exciting things that you'll be releasing soon or anything that you want to Give us a little teaser of—

Grace Hamilton [49:49]

I mean, if you're in the South Bend, Indiana area which I don't know why anyone would be, but if you are my thesis show is going up at the South Bend Museum of Art and there will be some AR posters that will— those are exciting— and a knitting workshop space. So if you're in the area, that would be good. And then I do have a Design is not Neutral website that will be coming up at the same time.

So that will probably be more accessible to people the website.

Christian Solorzano [50:28]

Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. This was a pleasure.

Grace Hamilton [50:32]

Thank you.