Christian Solorzano [00:02]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a show by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I'm your host, Christian Solorzano, and today I'm sharing my conversation with Hannah Cormier, a visual and digital experience designer at one Design here in Chicago. Hannah grew up in rural Illinois, adopted from China and raised by musician parents, and came to design through a path that's unlike anyone else I've spoken with on this show.

She talks about living with sensory processing disorder and how the way the way her brain processes information and the world became the foundation of her entire design ethos, from navigating physical spaces to building virtual furniture in an online game as a teenager.

We talk about what it means to be systems-focused without losing the human dimension of design, the future of interfaces and where invisible design starts to break down, and what early web culture taught her about iteration, feedback, and craft long before she ever set foot in a design classroom. As always, if you enjoy conversations like these, we really appreciate your support when you leave us a rating wherever you listen. As always, it just helps us expand our reach.

So thank you so much for tuning in and enjoy the conversation. All right. Hey Hannah, how's it going?

Hannah Cormier [01:20]

Pretty good. Glad to be here.

Christian Solorzano [01:23]

Yeah, so we're recording this on Monday, March 23rd. It's a little past 5 PM. I saw you on Friday, this past Friday at Firebelly. You were one of the reviewers for our Reviewed event, and it was great. Thank you so much for, again, taking the time out of your Friday. I know that Friday people usually do things, so the fact that people were willing to sacrifice your Friday to talk design really means a lot to me, and it means a lot to the club.

So thank you.

Hannah Cormier [01:56]

Yeah, absolutely. I always love whenever I can to go to some of these Design Club events. I think it's just a great community thing that is going on there.

Christian Solorzano [02:06]

So I want to— one of the questions that I always like to ask all of my guests is, how'd you get into design? What was the origin story behind you being where you're at today?

Hannah Cormier [02:18]

Yeah, I have always been so into technology and art, doing or making something creative. And that goes all the way, honestly, back to my— I'm adopted from China, so I adopted by parents who are both orchestral musicians. So a little bit of context on how I parse through the environments that I'm in. A lot of the Situation of my adoption, like really by the time my parents adopted me, it was pretty clear that I had sensory processing disorders.

So that basically means that the way my brain processes different senses, how it gets stimulated is a bit different than how normal brains process things. And I think that has really affected the way that I parse systems, design, different senses. Shape, color, audio.

And then that combined with how my parents have really learned how to foster that and like really work with that through both a musical and an artistic lens have really, I think, resulted in just the way that I, as you, design and especially just how to approach creative problem solving.

So, but with technology specifically, I think like technology to me quickly became Such a fascination because of the way that my brain parses physical environments, trying to figure out digital interfaces, taking that and bringing it to a digital environment was fascinating to me in the way that like it reorganizes how my brain begins to process that. And so trying to figure out even from a young age, the very first cell phone I had was just an interesting like way to explore and sift through information.

Purely by limiting it down to visual and a little bit of auditory senses rather than physically moving through space. Really just clung onto that and then quickly became just a fascination with drilling down into what makes this digital environment work. What is the system backing this entire thing, this experience? And so I would always be the kid that would be immediately finding all the settings. Can I customize this?

Or if I feel like I'm getting stuck, my immediate intuition would be just as a physical environment that I'm trying to parse in real time. I know this environment could probably get me, get me to do these things. I know this environment could probably allow me to do these things. I just need to learn how to get to that or to access that. And so I've always approached both physical and digital experiences like that.

And so I think that curiosity and that innate sense to just dig through and figure out how to make this thing work. What do I need to know to navigate through this space? It has really carried through any of my experiences both digital and physical.

And so I was always, again, like that kid that like seemed to always take the time to figure out a whole experience pretty quickly or catch on to things really quickly, mostly because I've always felt that I have to make sure that I overcompensate for that because of how my brain processes things pretty differently. And so it wasn't until middle school that I took one like elective.

I think it was called Design Tech, and that was the first class that I got introduced to Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign. And I think going through that type of learning environment and again, being in like an open world, like let's explore and figure out all the tools. And what are the different ways you can set up a workflow for yourself really captured that and then captured my interest and what I've already been fascinated by.

And then combining that with my need to create and make things was just such a wonderful colliding of both worlds. And so my teacher used to be a graphic designer full-time, so she would every once in a while mention that this is an experience that she had. And it clicked for me that like you could do this professionally. This is a real job to be creative, to be in design, and especially in problem solving people's experiences.

I think that like really clicked with me, really clicked with me. And so immediately I was like, what do I have to do to like continue to learn more about this? And so she really helped me figure out like what are the words to things in this field? What are the types of things I should be looking at to learn more. And then I was, I was fortunate that my high school also partnered with the Fox Valley Career Center. I went to Kaiman High School.

It's in the middle of 4 cornfields, very much bring your tractor to school type of school there. Very rural. But— Despite all that, we had this amazing resource that allowed me to connect with the career center, and that career center had At the time it was called the Graphics Department. I think today it's called Visual Communications.

But that really put me on track with digging into the tools at a deeper level, starting to apply how crafting an interface, a workflow, using digital tools to actually start to problem solve. I got to help other teams and clubs start to like print merchandise, start to, start to release, do more complicated projects that answered or had multiple aspects that needed to be solved visually.

At the same time, I think what has— was especially self-validating for me to just continually reinforce that this is the right path for me. If anyone is familiar with like platforms like the Sims or Roblox or Second Life, really like Late middle school, I got into one of those games. It was called IMVU. And not only was I just hooked on that game, but what was really interesting, and I just, I miss that most games and social platforms don't do this anymore.

It allowed you to not only just passively participate, take your avatar in your room and customize them, you could actually become a creator on there. And so—

That I threw myself in the deep end of 3D modeling and meshing because I wanted to have some really custom stuff on that game. And so that also, as I was learning Photoshop and Illustrator combined with what I was starting to figure out in IMVU, how to open a shop on there, have people use the virtual currency to purchase my stuff and just get to a level of customization and experience building.

Through this virtual universe, just continue to drive forward in this. Yeah, I can do this all day long. I love doing this stuff. The only aspect was I got really tired of 3D meshes. It became pretty clear that like I loved crafting textures and building layout much more than actually getting into 3D rigging and all that. So even through all of that, just kept reinforcing that like, yeah, I think I'm I can see myself in graphic design.

I can see myself really focusing on 2D visual problem solving, crafting experiences, and studying like how people use a product or use a space. I mean, that again, like especially IMVU, like was really helpful in having me see in real time in a very quick feedback loop of like if I made something, it took almost no time for real people to like use that thing.

I could see it for myself, like how they were trying to use it and like very quickly go back, revise that product, republish it, and set an update in the shop and like see how that went. So it was this very interesting feedback loop and that was all happening over time throughout middle school and high school that I was gaining these interesting perspectives both from formal career center education and also from this very informal, fast-paced virtual environment.

And I started also freelancing halfway through high school, combining some of those earliest skills I was starting to develop also helped me to get— gain a perspective on getting feedback from users, getting feedback from clients, and like enjoying that highly collaborative process.

I learned really quickly even through initial, some of my first freelance projects, I did way better when I had the client or users involved much earlier in the process rather than going away for a couple of weeks trying to solve this problem, knowing that I don't have all the answers yet, and then hoping that I got all of it right on the first shot.

And so, yeah, just a lot of very fortunate early experiences attacking the visual problem-solving space from different perspectives. By the time I got to College, I went to Judson University in Elgin. At the time, they had an art and design program, and I immediately signed up to major in graphic design, minor in marketing and photography. I think a special— especially in social media marketing as well.

But yeah, I think there, it was interesting because at that point I had really built up a level of fluency with these digital environments, how to craft workflows and experiences, that it felt interesting, an interesting experience to then first couple of years of college have to take it all the way back to step one of learning fine arts, learning about where all of our tools come from, learning about the history of things before finally getting back into Digital tools, digital problem solving.

I think that was a great experience to like take that step back and get a little bit more of that fuller background on the design industry that I think is ultimately why at the time, I really did believe that I should still go to college. I think at the end of high school there was a debate on like, do I need to go to college? I have already had like a lot of this. Experience both online and freelancing.

And at the time it was when especially the rise of design YouTube tutorials and teachers was like really becoming a lot more popular. And it, yeah, it was definitely at the top of mind, do I go through the college experience? Is there still enough for me to learn and grow through that? And I think Ultimately, yes, because what those— I noticed, because I would also look up on YouTube all the time for quick— I just need to know how to do this quick thing.

But I even, I kind of could tell that there was still a missing layer of extra knowledge of basic design principles and like where our tools have evolved to where they are now compared to where— how did workflows used to be? 40, 50 years ago. And so I think that was really good to go to college still, despite my pretty unique experience going into it. But it really gave me a lot more substance to rationale and better articulate my work overall.

And then in junior year of college, we had— I was taking Web Design 1. Fall semester. At the same time, I was also taking Professional Practices in one Design. That was like really my first true experience designing web and product and really digging into the details of user flows, research, wireframing, and prototyping, and learning a little bit of code. And that already like really, like in particular, satisfied the particular itch in my brain that's been here for many years.

And so I already like had an inkling that like, wow, I, I'm really good and feel right at home in web design and product design. On the other hand, that other class, Professional Practices, we were required as students to go and go, I think like do 3 job shadows. One of those ended up being part of our AIGA field trip. To one Design. And that was my first introduction to the idea that you don't have to choose between being a freelancer or working in-house.

And you could be part of an agency that is this nice middle of giving you that variety of problem solving without feeling like you're completely on your own. You have to manage all the business aspects. I walked away from it very inspired. But I continued, I continued my education and at the time I had already one internship down with Chapel Street Church in the middle of the pandemic.

So I already had figured out at that time that through that experience I could see myself doing well in-house, but not necessarily being satisfied for over the course of many years doing in-house. So I was still in that unknown gray area of what exactly do I really want to specialize in or narrow down to focus on in this field. So it was good to have that tour because then spring semester in that junior year, I had Web Design 2, and that was taught by Alyssa Low.

I know she's been a guest on here, and at the time she was working at one Design. And so being in her class, I think, was amazing because like we got to connect and I think she and I like began to have like really interesting conversations around just information hierarchy.

And like some really intricate stuff about like what goes into prototyping and like understanding your users that became pretty clear that I was the only student that was like super interested in that triple-click down into that stuff. And so that eventually resulted in asking, what was I going to do post-grad? And at the time I didn't have any solid plans and she invited me to work with one Design. So I applied for an internship.

This was still 2021, so very much a lot of remote work, very much just barely coming outta the pandemic. So that was a remote internship, but even through that was invaluable to me to have that studio agency experience that I was missing before. So really clicking with the team there.

Christian Solorzano [17:40]

So can you talk to us a little bit about where you draw inspiration from?

Hannah Cormier [17:45]

Yeah, I am inspired by many different things. Definitely a lot of the scenes and cultures that are special to me are really rooted in that early web culture on IMVU. A lot of that was driven by tons of different music exploration. I think IMVU had like quite a strong music component tied to the chat experience. So it was pretty hard to separate your music tastes from socializing and then customizing your person and their room and stuff.

So, I mean, the music genres, like soft spot for EDM, metal, grunge, rock, punk, hardcore, new wave, synth, dark neo, jazz, classical, hip-hop, fusion, many more. And I think like more recently exploring more shoegaze, funk, and dreamcore. So all sorts of different genres. Very cool.

Christian Solorzano [18:39]

Is there a genre that you don't like? What's something that you just don't wanna listen to?

Hannah Cormier [18:43]

I don't know if there's a whole entire genre I just flat out won't listen to. I think like the genres I probably listen to least, less frequently are probably country and rap. But even then, like there's songs in there that like I enjoy. So yeah.

Christian Solorzano [18:59]

Yeah, that's cool.

Hannah Cormier [19:01]

I think like also I pull from lots of movies and shows, like any of the Studio Ghibli movies are like a huge influence in just how I want to view the world. And I think like Severance was definitely like a mindfuck for me. And also like, it's one of the first shows that like, I loved how like heavy, like graphic heavy it was.

Like it wasn't just like another really well-paced TV show, but like it was interesting to see how Lumen itself had such a significant brand presence and how that the brand itself like actually played an element to the plot. And I think like they're gonna play more with that in the following seasons. Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, tons of different anime, Over the Garden Wall, Arcane, and then like other internet culture pieces and spaces that have inspired me. I think the Mandela Catalogue.

All of the Devil Came Through Your Trilogy, Undertale, the Witch's House, Paper Lily, all the Silent Hill video games. And I think like trends like the liminal space or Backrooms lore that has been coming up, like that I think is so fascinating on how that's getting people who normally aren't in creative spaces to engage with creatives. Even like, yeah, really old ones like Charlie the Unicorn or the Broccoli Tree, like I think like those can be felt in like today's zeitgeist in like very subtle ways.

So.

Christian Solorzano [20:28]

Yeah. I just, I remember when Silent Hill 2 came out, it was so scary that I made my mom return it because I cannot, I just could not handle it. It was so traumatizing and—

Hannah Cormier [20:42]

I mean, it was so ahead of its time too. Every other game out at that time was just not at all the level of immersion and just straight up like complex, horrific storytelling.

Christian Solorzano [20:56]

Yeah. And I remember the television back then was, the resolution wasn't as rich as it is today. So the game felt very dark. Like sometimes you could just, you didn't even, you couldn't see what you were doing in the game. It just made it that more scary. And I recently last year I got the remastered version of Silent Hill 2 and it was my first time playing it again.

And I don't know, since it came out maybe 20 years ago, and it's still fun, like it's still scary, but now that there's a I think with video games, sometimes the lack of detail with horror, it made it even more horrifying because your mind sort of had to fill in the blanks of what's in that room or, that kind of thing. I have the new Resident Evil on the way. I should be getting it in the mail on Friday, so I'm excited to play that.

Hannah Cormier [21:43]

Ooh, that's awesome.

Christian Solorzano [21:45]

Yeah, so that's cool. So what about, so there, so I'm hearing there's a lot of music, there's film, there's video games. Is there anything else that maybe would be a little bit unexpected? I know you also mentioned being inspired by just public spaces and people watching. Yeah. Do you journal? Do you, how do you typically track your inspirations? Do you, do you write them down? Do you have a, what is it called? I know sometimes people will curate their inspiration on Arena.

Or a Pinterest or something, but how do you collect stuff?

Hannah Cormier [22:20]

Mine's, mine is not like really documented or in like a structured way. Like it's just scattered across different note-taking apps. I haven't really gotten into the habit of journaling. I did it a little bit, like when I was very young and gave up. A lot of, a lot of it, honestly, like I am a very vivid dreamer, so honestly it's, and I'm really good at remembering. The bulk of my dreams.

So honestly, like when I'm in the dream world is when like I get the chance to like sift through all the stuff that I'm taking in.

Christian Solorzano [22:55]

So yeah. Do you have any recurring dreams?

Hannah Cormier [22:57]

For a while I had like a whole series of linked dreams that like would repeat upon themselves or like they would draw other references from other dreams. That hasn't been happening as much lately, but that it's very weird when it does happen.

Christian Solorzano [23:16]

Yeah. So are you able to get into a dream? Like for example, if there's something you wanna dream tonight, can, are you able to sort of create a mindset so that when you go to sleep, you're able to just enter that space?

Hannah Cormier [23:29]

I used to be able to lucid dream very well. Oh, nice. I think I think like I've lost that ability a bit and I have to get back into it. But yeah, I think like I used to really have that ability, like and use it a lot more often.

I think like part of that all goes all the way back to my SPD and my origin story really of just if I had such a lack of stimulus that most infants need to start developing, like my brain found other ways to do that. And so any, I mean, even to this day, just like anything that involves world building, defining aspects of the universe and the characters and different scenes and spaces is like my jams.

Christian Solorzano [24:12]

So yeah. And can you talk to us a little bit more about your— like in the beginning of our conversation, you spoke about your mind processing information in a unique way, and also the way that you experience sensations was also something that at a year— at an early age sort of like informed how you went about experiencing the world and I'd love to have you maybe share a little bit about that, just outta curiosity. Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Cormier [24:41]

So sensory processing disorder, it's a little bit different from individual to individual, but basically our ability to process like multiple senses at once. Sometimes it does not go great or it can cause sen— we're very prone to sensory overload and I'm sure everyone has experienced sensory overload at some point in their life. And for us, it's just a lot more frequent of an episode that it can happen.

I think for me, it multiple times, my combination of I'm a super smeller and my aversion to very specific textures. I think like that still guides a lot of like how I perceive the world today is, and how I find workarounds and compromises. I think a lot of, I think the biggest sense that I struggled with growing up was auditory processing disorders. So. And that affected my school.

I, that would be like the number one thing that parent-teacher conferences will be brought up. She can literally repeat back the instruction I gave her and she like cognitively understands it. And then like, it just doesn't quite compute. Like whatever happens between me hearing it, being able to repeat it back doesn't fully compute to and translate sometimes to the fact that yes, you just heard that, so now you need to actually do something with that. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [26:00]

And have you noticed that has, how does that show up or manifest in some of your, professional work? Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Cormier [26:07]

I mean, I'm, I mean, these days I'm just really upfront if something is bothering me. I'll say, hey, just the lighting in here and I can hear the buzzing or the specific, temperature of the lights or the way that my chair feels, or right now my clothes are bothering me. I'm just gonna take a couple a couple minutes to just, yeah, process that or shut down for a little bit and I'll come back to you later.

I think also it also like just really fosters like a high level of awareness for web accessibility, interface accessibility. And I know there, I, to my knowledge, I don't, I'm not too familiar with any sort of standardized accessibility guidelines for brands, but I try to bring a lot of those philosophies over there too. I think like just being like cognizant of like what information, how much information is someone able to hold with them throughout an experience?

And when can the interface help that person offload that cognitive load for just a little bit? Or, if there's a, if there's an opportunity to make something satisfying or feel delightful, let's like take the moment to put that in there, even if there's Even when there's times where the budget is questionable or the timing is questionable, I think it's really important to still consider like there could still be opportunities to bring those moments of satisfaction from a sensory standpoint in there.

Christian Solorzano [27:31]

Yeah. And I find that those, the empathy that goes into design, even if it's meant to be a response to maybe a smaller population of users, I find that overall everyone tends to benefit from those, details. And I always think about like, whenever I'm watching a movie, I always love having subtitles just because it helps me like process things better. And I know that subtitles were originally designed not for me, like not for people like myself that can, that can hear fine.

They were designed for people that had some special need. So I think there's a lot of like advantage to having that level of empathy because it leads to better products overall, I think.

Hannah Cormier [28:19]

Oh, absolutely. I think even like color contrast is like a huge one that I'm always trying to pressure test in my projects. At first it sounds disappointing to have to limit your color palette to make sure that it's accessible, but I think in the end it actually makes a stronger more scalable color palette and you can bring it to a much wider variety of mediums and know that it has a higher chance of working in that constraint.

I think like also like now I see brands where you can tell color accessibility wasn't really considered because oftentimes the colors look way too muddy or way too faint and fragile. And I think like it just helps give brands that extra dimension aesthetically to like have a nice balance of bold, confident, but also compassionate. Yeah. We never want a brand to be 100% all muddy colors.

Christian Solorzano [29:15]

And what are some of the— I know you've shared with us some of your like inspirations and some of your experiences that you engage with, but for you, what are some, what are some examples or like, I'm curious about like as a consumer of like Brands or just consumerism in general, like what are some brands or products that you tend to gravitate towards that you feel like exemplify a lot of like your values and your tastes? Yeah.

Hannah Cormier [29:43]

Yeah. I think Patagonia, like they're big on like being sustainable and like trying to do something about the effects of fast fashion. And their product is actually good. I feel like unfortunately, like I, they're one of those brands that like the actual product, like I want to use that without feeling like I'm, I have to sacrifice sustainability or accessibility. Their customer service is amazing.

I also love Loops, which is, I think I mentioned earlier about how they filter out certain frequencies that would set off auditory processing disorder. Otherwise, I think like their brand is very interesting. It's a much smaller scale brand because they're a much smaller business, but I think the craft that goes into each— they have multiple models of earbuds and their accessories that come with it. And I think the way that they present all of those is well done.

And I think their marketing strategy has really been taken to the next level the last couple of years as well.

Christian Solorzano [30:40]

And how do you spell that? They're Loops?

Hannah Cormier [30:43]

Loops. Let me do a quick— earbuds. Let me just double-check that. Loop earplugs, Loop US. I think they're just called Loop. Loop. All right. Yeah. I have the Loop Experience. There's like, yeah, like 5 other, 5 other products within that. But yeah.

Christian Solorzano [31:08]

Yeah. I remember like, I, I'm currently working with a client and they mentioned Patagonia as being like one of their one of their brands that they sort of want to be aligned similarly to. And as I was doing my research, I saw that there is like a campaign in which Patagonia said, fashion is none of our business.

And I thought that was so cool because to me, I feel like they're in a, they're in the business of something much bigger than just like creating like accessories and clothing. I feel like they're— Their magnitude, like goes beyond just hey, we're making like, cool looking clothes. It's like, no, they're doing that. To me, I almost feel like their products are just like a small fraction of what they're actually doing, which is, so much more than— and I really like that.

Hannah Cormier [32:00]

Yeah, any brand, honestly, that you can tell that the products are in service of a larger vision, and not just for the sake of making products, I think, is always such a green flag and you can feel that.

Christian Solorzano [32:12]

Yeah. And then I, then I, there's another question that I wanna, that I wanna touch on, cuz I know that you went to a Christian university or college, and then you also worked as a designer at a church. And I wanna know if Christianity or religion or just faith are a part of, just a part of you.

Hannah Cormier [32:32]

Yeah. Yeah, I grew up Baptist. I think to this day, Christianity still is a part of my life and part of my identity. But I think through college, I actually got the chance to really wrestle with the beliefs that I grew up with. And even though it's a Christian college, they really encourage you to, take a scholarly look at the biblical literature that you're given and really, like, be very critical of like, what, where do these beliefs come from?

And how can we look at things through both a cultural, historical, and theological lens? And I think like that kind of outlook on my entire college education really led me to like deconstructing a large part of like the, some of the values and beliefs and assumptions that some of my Baptist background was just a given at first. And it led me to kind of reconstruct a Christianity that I don't think really aligns with any one denomination now.

It's very much creator-focused now, very much deriving from recognizing that like creatives are image bearers. Like the, I think like my take on it now is just like, we humans were created in the image of God. And I think like that directly speaks to our creating, our creative abilities, and how can that be used to like bring light to the world and like make the world a better place?

I think what's often missed, the kinds of churches that I've attended and Bible groups that I've been to, I think like there's still like a lot missing from tying our creative roots or our creative stewardship that doesn't get discussed as much at a church level that I think like at the higher education level, Judson was actually able to bring that out and have really deep discussion around.

Christian Solorzano [34:33]

Yeah. Yeah. I grew up Christian. Well, I grew up Catholic and when I was a teenager, I like wrestled with this notion of an omnipresent creator. Like there's something about it, I think, as like a young person, I was like so against this idea. But then as I as I grew up, as I as I grew up, I found I found myself coming back to Christianity on my own terms.

And I and similar to your experience, like I sort of like constructed my own interpretation of God or Christianity or just like this belief system. And I do feel like there's a lot of I tend to see lately that there's more vision or mission-driven design practices. That aren't necessarily tied to a belief or a faith system, but there is a lot of overlap.

I think when we talk about things like designing for good or like even things like accessibility or like social change, to me, I feel like a faith in something can be a good way to sort of ground one's personal practice and tie it to something bigger, whatever that thing may be.

And I think usually I feel like I find that designers that I really look up to, even though they don't explicitly have a singular faith or something, I do see that there is a spiritual practice that's deeply embedded into like every decision that they make. And to me, that's sort of like the way I see it. It's like, that's why we exist. Like on this planet. Oh yeah.

Hannah Cormier [36:14]

Yeah, no, I share a lot of that. I think like, it's a weird way to say it. And I think like, especially people who did not grow up with a religious background might find the wording super weird, but I really do think like brand is a form of faith. I think like you're basically creating the foundation of what does your what does your organization, group, company believe in? What can like all of your leaders and employees and participants like rally around?

And I think that's no different than like sharing the sense that like there is a higher being or higher calling, and that's bigger than all of us. And can we get all get behind that? Or how, like how that drives everything that we do.

And the decisions that we make and like provide a framework for how we wanna operate in the world. I think like the similarities between that are, there's just so much overlap that it's, that's how I view it now. It's just, yeah. A lot of brand is a form of faith and I think, yeah, that's a good thing.

Christian Solorzano [37:23]

And when people say that, I often hear like, oh, I'm not a religious person, but I think brands are also a form of religion. Like there's this like allegiance that we, that we, that we uphold to Whatever brand, like I think we're all by default people that want a sense of belonging. And I think brands do that. And sometimes they do it in a sustainable way and sometimes it in a destructive way.

And I feel like the destructive way usually stems from when there's like this refusal or like, it's sort of like when we start to stray off any sort of value system. When we start to maybe design for the sake of profit or exploitation or even just like designing for like the, like growth for the sake of growth, to me feels sort of counterintuitive to—

Hannah Cormier [38:19]

Yes. Well, and I think the equivalent exists amongst a lot of churches too. Like I've been to churches where, they're, they say that, they're there for these values. But you really go to some of these groups and it feels so performative, or like, here's the list of all the things that we need to do and rituals that we need to do, but there's no sustenance and substance behind it.

And I think like the same thing applies to brands, like having things rallied around a right faith or a right framework to operate within, like gives your community that you're trying to build substance. That way, like it gives your brand like the future-proofing and resilience. I think like a lot of, I think like something like the COVID pandemic really challenged that in a lot of brands. So many businesses that thought that, they had a brand, but like didn't really have a mission behind the brand.

It, COVID, like I think really challenged like, what are we supposed to do when our, when our entire culture and world is changing? And I think like the brands that had a solid mission or value system driving all of their brand and communications.

I think those were better built to withstand like a changing world because the world around you might change and your customers might change and your audience might change, but that shouldn't be impacting your mission if it's rooted in a value system that you truly believe in.

Christian Solorzano [39:49]

Yeah. So for you, what are some of the things that keep you up at night?

Hannah Cormier [39:54]

Oh boy. Things that keep me up at night. Gotta give it a think. Actually, could you rephrase that?

Christian Solorzano [40:02]

What are— I'm curious about like, I mean, I like, I like, I always like to ask this question because I feel like that with a lot of, I mean, with mostly everyone, I feel like there's, there tends to be this underlying force or there's this like underlying thing that sort of Keeps us going. And I find that sometimes that thing is the thing that we end up thinking about, like before bed or first thing that we wake up. So basically, yeah, just what keeps you thinking?

Hannah Cormier [40:34]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [40:35]

And it could be, it could be something positive or it could be something that is neutral. But I'm just curious about like, what does Hannah think?

Hannah Cormier [40:46]

Oh man. I've been thinking a lot about like the commercial over-commercialization of digital spaces. And I think like, because more recently, every once in a while I do try to log back into IMVU or some of those older spaces. And it's just, it's not just different because I'm older, quite literally, like so many of the things. That space used to do have been discontinued and the things that have replaced them are purely there because they want more money from you.

And I think like, just to give a sense of what that was like back in the day, and I'm talking like 2012 maybe, IMVU, like it wasn't, yes, the main dimension was you choose a person and you get to customize them and then you can go into other people's rooms and chat with them. And that was like the main thing, but like there were so many other arms to this community that made it thrive.

There were like so many, like you had like a MySpace element where like I taught myself how a little bit of CSS and BBC to customize my homepage. My first freelance projects were actually helping other people design badges and stickers, which are 2 different things. Badges, went on— What's the difference? Yeah, badges went on your profile card. And so anyone that clicked on your name or your profile picture, they would immediately be able to see, in addition to your basic information, was these badges.

And, you usually could purchase these. They were like collectibles. Stickers were another form of collectibles that you could earn through competitions. And those would be displayed only on your homepage. You would not be able to see those from your card. And so like that immediately creates another like set of different groups of who wants to join IMVU and why. Like there's people that wanna be in the competitions, the dress-up competitions, the shop competitions, and to get those.

And then there's the other group that just wants to collect badges and like they will, are willing to earn the virtual currency to just buy that instead of going through a competition.

Like those were some of my first freelance projects helping design some of those badge and stickers collections. And then several other of my freelance projects, like they were actually just, people were willing to pay for a highly bespoke display picture, their profile picture or their display picture. The traditional way you would get that is there's a, there was an in-app camera. And that little virtual camera pop up and you could like position your character and your scene the way you want to.

And then, oh, you take a picture and then you can set that as your profile picture. But you could also just upload any picture that you wanted. And so it quickly became like you could tell who was a noob or who had only been on for like a couple weeks because they were just using their standard, I took a picture in the game and set that.

And then like the varying levels of like who had been on for longest or who knew the most niche spaces within the chat rooms to be in because their profile picture was like highly edited or they hired like a digital artist to do it. So I took commissions to help people with their profile pictures and even like gave advice on like how they could level up their profile and their homepage.

That when like everything is about making your profile or your homepage look cool, like people were willing to do that. So yeah, just a lot of those things really like allow me to be both a lot of highly self-expressive in my work and also start to establish like, oh, this is how you like work with people to like make good work.

Christian Solorzano [44:41]

And as you were doing, as you were exploring and like getting into these design projects, was it when it comes to like your craft, were there things visually that you were like challenging yourself with? I'm interested in hearing about sort of like what these, even if they were just like these small moments or like making someone's picture or like just helping people like level up their character, what were you learning at that point when it comes to like craft?

Were you teaching yourself like Typography or color theory or composition? How are you gauging your areas of growth aside from people saying like, this looks cool, Hannah, thank you?

Hannah Cormier [45:28]

Yeah, I think like my gauge started to become— I didn't really learn about typography as an entire practice until college, but, and like the heyday of like a lot of that, those specific projects were in high school, but Even in high school, I wanted to level up color theory. I wanted to understand composition and layout and like the ability to like iterate and come up with tons of good ideas most of the time.

I would, I think I remember like very early on, like I would have like 1 or 2 really good ideas because that was the only 2 ideas I explored.

And so I, it became very clear, like within a couple of clients, no, people expect that you, they at least want the assurance that you've explored other things besides what you're directly showing here. I think also like, especially when I officially became an IMVU creator where I was actively making 3D rigs and meshes for the shop, that really pushed my technical craft. I was already a little familiar with Photoshop and that's like a great tool for making someone's profile picture.

But like once you get into like making furniture, rooms, clothes, and special effects or triggerable actions for your character that you can buy from the shop or pose packs or anything like that, like you can't just put that in Photoshop and hope that like there's no— it's a completely different medium. So like it really got pushed me to learn Illustrator, bring it into like, I think at the time it was Maya or 3ds Max, one of those two.

And like really play with like, how does 2D texture wrap around a 3D object? And how do I like get it to like look more natural? Like for example, like if I was like making a dresser for someone's room, like each, maybe the actual 3D mesh I was given from another creator. Like the other thing is the shop. Was all derivation tree based. So you would have mesh creators who only specialized in making the 3D meshes, the actual form and shape of the object.

And then you'd have texture creators who would specialize in painting over that stuff to make it look like the thing it's supposed to look like. You could have someone who's a hybrid creator that like did both. I very quickly like gave up on the 3D stuff.

I tried my hand at like some 3D meshing from scratch and I just, one, my laptop at the time did not have the performance to handle Maya or 3ds Max, but like I could stick with learning how to translate 2D textures onto 3D meshes.

And so I would often be collaborating with this derivation tree handoff process where the original mesh creator would like start on these objects and they'd have like the dresser in terms of like, oh, the actual physical object is done, but there's no texture on it. So you can't see it even though it's actually there. And so like my job would be to go in and like make sure, okay, I'm painting the illusion of drawers on this dresser, but like they're not physically on this shape.

And so like iterating endlessly on like what will, what is the right positioning on this UV map, this texture map that will get it to wrap around this object in the right way so that the dresser drawers look like they're actually drawers that belong there. And I think that entire process really honed my ability to, have the endurance to just troubleshoot endlessly. I have no problems, going through QA or developer handoff because, I am so used to just digging in. And troubleshooting every single thing.

Oh, that's not quite working. Can we just like try like these 5 more things I think might be the fix for this? Whereas I feel like I've collaborated with designers and artists and creatives that like don't have that troubleshooting patience and like would rather just like have the thing work and like let them do the self-exploration part and then just like let someone else take over that process. So.

Christian Solorzano [49:44]

Yeah. And I have 2 follow-up questions to that. When you were doing all this stuff, what were your parents thinking? You were obviously spending a lot of time on the computer.

Were they, did they understand that you were like pro— like training a craft that would at some point become a career for you? Because my story is very similar to you. Like I would spend a lot of time online and my mom would Be, she'd just get pissed off. You're on the computer for too long. Get off of there. And I try to explain to her, I'm like, mom, I'm like, I'm doing stuff, but you don't understand.

Hannah Cormier [50:22]

It's real.

Christian Solorzano [50:23]

And then now, sometimes I'll bring up to her, I'm like, do you remember when you used to like tell me to get off the computer? I'm like, just imagine if I would've gotten off the computer. I wouldn't be doing all this stuff that I'm doing. So what were your parents thinking? Did they understand? Did they ask questions? Did they, were they encouraging or did they just sort of, yeah.

Hannah Cormier [50:45]

I think at first they were definitely hesitant and very much in the camp of this is just a fun game that's meant to addict my kid. And we're gonna like make sure that like she understands that she can't just like waste her life away in front of a screen. And I think like. Yes, there's obviously like, that's fair to an extent.

I think there's value in having a balance, but I think like it did take a while, but they did realize like, oh, like it— Hannah's like actually making friends across the world on this app all the time. And she's actively like making things. And I'm hearing that like other people can buy her stuff. That's Interesting.

And I think once they understood, because in order to be a creator, you had to like fill something out, you had to actually like, I think like it cost a fee as well. So that involved me actually having to explain to my parents, okay, I really want to try this, but it costs like X amount a year to be a creator on IMVU.

So it did involve me having to actually like try to translate what this program is, what would I be doing, and like what exactly is this whole thing and trying to break down that process and like explain that to them of like, and I really want to do this. And I think this is like super cool and like it would teach me so much about the tools that I've already been introduced at that design tech class and I want to continue that.

I think like once they made that connection that like this is actively tying back to skills that class taught me, I think like that really made the click of like, okay. Yeah, you know what, Leah, let's— we'll give it to you for your birthday. And then like every birthday, that would be like the only thing on my wishlist. I'm like, nope, I don't want anything else. Just let me be a creator in IMVU. That's all I care about.

Even some of my friends, I think, like had a, like in school, like at first had a hard time like understanding, wait, what? So you get online, you talk to strangers, but like you dress up your character? I'm like, yeah, it's great. And then like, be like, wow, that doesn't sound great. Oh.

Christian Solorzano [52:55]

So that's cool.

Hannah Cormier [52:57]

Eventually, definitely today everyone understands like, oh, okay. Yeah. This is like a huge part of your life.

Christian Solorzano [53:02]

Yeah. And is there any future interest in ever taking that stuff that you were learning into the physical space? Would you ever create furniture or do any sort of like interior, like physical space world building? Is that? Something you can do with it.

Hannah Cormier [53:22]

Yeah. I'm not sure. I, I've thought about it. I think like it, those skills really came in handy during high school where like I really got involved in stage tech. So like I joined the crew for, I think like 15 shows and musicals.

And I think that's where I really, I really got to put a lot of my Skills from different parts of my life and different crafts together. 'Cause I would show up way before tech week and help the crew like actually build the set pieces, paint on the wall for walls, furniture, and like construct even some of the crazy mechanisms that we would do.

I remember for Mary Poppins, like that's a musical where like there's so many, there's so much magic that happens on stage and you have to like make those illusions real. I remember like having to help people and like collaborate on with the team to think through, okay, can this set piece turn into like 5 other things? Every time we rotate this thing, can it become a different thing?

Or like when Mary Poppins goes over and like has to like make this magic like trick happen, can we have a mechanism built that holds somebody underneath that can like help do that magic trick? I think that like really helped reinforce like skills around creating things, like helping sell the idea, similar to painting fake drawers on our dresser.

Yeah, if our musical needs to have like tons of complicated stage acts happen, but we only got a bunch of wood and nails, can we like make that happen? Yeah, I think that definitely helped me explore that. I don't know if like, if I wanna go back to it today. I think like at the same time, I, it was, those were like such great experiences, but they took a lot outta me.

And I think like, especially like, I'm sure anyone out there in theater or familiar with performing arts is all too familiar with the drama of tech week. And I think like that was probably the least but those were the parts of being in stage tech that I didn't like, was just stage politics, dealing with people at the peak of their stress levels leading up to opening week.

And just it, I think like at least most of the team like would have an acknowledgement at the beginning of the week that like, okay, and just so everyone knows, like we all know that we're all high stress right now. And we want to make this a great production, so let's make this a great production. But there wasn't any way to actually resolve things with people.

It was just this acknowledgement of, cool, we're going to be shitty to each other, but we'll have a great opening night. That's like the only acknowledgement we would have, and it's like, cool, so we won't have any outlet to resolve these issues. Because the thing is like, I think it was because the directors were often teachers that like didn't get to see us outside of school regularly.

And I think the problem was like, cool, this issue I have with this other person is going to continue outside of our rehearsals if we don't resolve it. So this doesn't do anything by just acknowledging it.

Christian Solorzano [56:48]

That's like a big, a big disclaimer.

Hannah Cormier [56:54]

Oh yeah. Okay guys, we're gonna struggle. Have fun.

Christian Solorzano [56:59]

Yeah. I'd be curious to hear about what you think is the future of interfaces. I always, I always like to, I also teach and I always like to emphasize invisible interfaces. Like to me, an Alexa or like a Siri, they're a form of non-visual interfaces. And that you can interact with.

And there's like, this method, this user journey about accomplishing a task that you don't necessarily see, but there needs to be all these various entry points because some people might say like, hey Alexa, play this, whereas someone else might say Alexa, and then they'll say the artist's name. So like there's all these different, like infinite number of ways that people engage with these interfaces.

And I feel like to me right now, and you and I were briefly talking about this past Friday about this overlap between technology and design and how I personally feel like right now we're living through this like really early stage in what is to become this new wave of design, interface design. And I find it super exciting. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on just the future of interfaces, technology, AI, and when we're where you kind of see things going?

Because I, because as I'm hearing you speak, I feel like you've seen a lot and like you've been not just consuming like content and media, but you've also been like actively participating in the fact that you had freelance clients while you were in high school, I think is really cool. And maybe you can tell us a little bit about what those clients were, but I know that was a lot of questions. So maybe we can start with like the technology interface stuff first.

Hannah Cormier [58:45]

Yeah. I've been noticing a very interesting dialogue, or I guess like threshold of like, when does invisible interface make the most sense versus needing to see everything exposed? And I've been noticing, at least in my experience and like through the work that I've been doing, or even personal projects of just like Noticing that I tend, and other people tend to prefer more invisible interfaces when you just want to get straight to the thing instead of digging through menus, digging through dialogue and popups.

And like you almost want like an open canvas approach when you're first approaching a flow or problem or a project, whatever that is. And you, I think just it's becoming more, especially with AI and how we are, we've been approaching AI interfaces. Like it, it's just becoming this pattern of the interface needs to get out of the way earlier in the process.

But what I've also noticed is that when you try to use invisible interfaces throughout the whole flow, I think that's where it starts to fall apart. If I'm asking Alexa to place an Amazon order for me, it's so straightforward to ask to start the order, but then it's like there's no buttons available for me to choose what color, what size, et cetera. How do I, how can I like see in front of me the output of what's happening?

I'm asking, I'm giving it input, but I can't actually have a tracking system of what's being outputted. And I think that is where we run into this problem, or what a lot of interfaces that are trying to be more invisible or future-facing are running into this strange problem of like, oh, if in making this invisible the entire way, we're actually taking control away from the user at a certain point where they can't have a clear way of going back and making changes.

And sure, maybe for some users you can Try to backtrack through your words, but there's no, there's no feedback, visual feedback to, know that Alexa's getting that it's got the right information, it's got the right payment method, all that stuff. And so I think, an example of an interface that's starting to explore how to, find that balance of invisible interface, but you need control at some point in the flow is Dia Browser. I don't know how much maybe you've heard about it or not, but—

Christian Solorzano [61:33]

Dia Browser?

Hannah Cormier [61:35]

Yeah, it's a browser that, well, I know about it because I used Arc Browser for a very, for a couple of years. The Browser Company, that's who made it. It was really this interesting experiment in how could we completely reshape the browser experience. I think Arc like really succeeded in giving just a level of customization and meaningful features that took you outside the box, quite literally, of how to organize your digital life.

And so after a couple of years, they sunset that because their next project, Dia, like started to focus on one step further instead of a crazy amount of customization. What if we took a completely different approach and dialed it to, can you have an AI or agentic-based browser?

And so I think what's fascinating about where that browser is, plus Perplexity's Comet, plus I think ChatGPT also has a browser now, or working on a browser run agentically, is they're all trying these different ways of starting with the assumption that you need to have an invisible interface when you're starting, but then the deeper you go in the conversation with the agent, the more interface needs to appear.

And still having that invisibleness or that ease of access off to the side in a persistent rail, but then being able to see live the feedback of what you're able to control happening in a separate window or a separate section of the browser. I think like that's really fascinating to see that pattern start to crop up in more of these products. So yeah, just really fine-tuning that threshold of when do you need to see feedback and when does it become bothersome and add to clutter?

Christian Solorzano [63:36]

Yeah, I find, I find that I personally really appreciate when interfaces like an example would be when I am driving and I have my CarPlay in my dashboard, and I like the fact that my phone is a remote for it.

Yes, I can, if I want to, I can interact with the dashboard, but sometimes I find it more intuitive to just engage with my cell phone to control music or to directions and all that kind of stuff. And I've been noticing more and more recently where I'll be watching YouTube and there'll be a commercial, and then on the bottom left, it'll say send to phone. Like you can send a commercial promo to your phone.

And I find that kind of cool that like you're bridging, something that you're looking on the television and it's being able to be sent to your phone, or you're driving and you're able to control your navigation on your car with your phone. So I look forward to maybe invisible interfaces that do have some optional interface that you can interact with, whether it's like—

Having a conversation with like an Alexa or like an Apple Home or whatever they're called, but being able to see that feedback on your phone if you want to. I think that could be kind of cool. I'm looking forward to more of that. So yeah, we'll see what happens.

But those 2 browsers, Dia is the one that you mentioned that is— that I just looked up. I still use Google Chrome and I feel like I'm like a caveman for using Google Chrome. Because I— someone shared with me a browser the other day. I think it was called Brave.

Hannah Cormier [65:09]

Brave. Yes.

Christian Solorzano [65:12]

Yeah. And it looked like it does way more than what Chrome does. So I feel like I need to check out some of these a little bit further.

Hannah Cormier [65:22]

Yeah. I mean, so the last couple years, I mean, I've— I'm just chronically online. I'm always like, just like really steeped in internet culture. I think 2010s internet culture was like peak for me, but like even since then, like I'm usually involved in such hyper-niche topics online. So yeah, very random things like people caring about what browser they're using and optimizing their digital spaces through their browser. Like that's something that like I've been really paying attention to lately.

I think mainly because of the culmination of just where is AI headed? And how can you make— AI start to be actually useful to everyday people and not just programmers, not just engineers or people that already have a pretty specialized task that would make sense or be conducive to the way AI works right now. And I think it's very interesting how that's starting to come through the browser.

Christian Solorzano [66:20]

Yeah, I'm really— when AI was first being talked about heavily a few years ago, I was so anti-AI. And even like on the Chicago Graphic Design Club website, I had a little, a little badge at the bottom that said AI-free zone.

Hannah Cormier [66:36]

Really?

Christian Solorzano [66:37]

And I'm like, I'll never use AI for anything. But I've been and, but I've been using it more and more lately. And one, it's not easy to use. You definitely need to be someone that knows how to prompt to get something that is kind of what you want. Otherwise you're going to get like generic, default, like slop. So I really want more designers to embrace it because I want to see what designers can come up with when they're using the tool.

Because right now I feel like there's this allergic reaction to the slop that we see, but that slop is usually done by people who maybe don't have the visual awareness that like someone like you or I might have. There's a really cool studio called, what is it called? I think it's called Company, let me look it up. Company Policy. Yeah, Company Policy Studio. And they have this project called Overtime, and the URL is overtime.companypolicy.studio.

And basically what they do is they give their team like these prompts, or they give their team like this sandbox environment. That they're encouraged to play, like that, encouraged to play in overtime when they're not doing work. And the way that it works is that there's like these prompts, like these categories, these themes like vibration, distortion, turmoil, love. And they're asking their design team to reinterpret what those themes are visually. And to me, I feel like more designers should be embracing that.

It's like, just use it, just not because you're trying to solve a problem, just use it just to see how you can make it feel like it's, if you and I were to be given the same design prompt or the same AI prompt, I'm sure you and I would have vastly different approaches to it. And your approach would be a Hannah approach and mine would be a Christian approach.

So I hope that whoever's listening can just try it or play with it because yeah, I think it's—

Hannah Cormier [68:49]

Yeah, no, I also wrestled quite a bit early on especially like when ChatGPT like first launched on the App Store and that like initial wave of like, wow, the public now has access to this. I also had similar feelings like, man, is this where the future's going? That's crazy that like people can— that people now feel empowered to like do these types of things without any sense of needing to consult expertise or have a defined craft. In a way, that's ultimately good.

We do want tools and things that elevate the playing field for everyone across the board. And I think like, I think where I'm at now with AI is just like any other experience or environment or interface that I've come across. It's just another one of those. It's another environment. It's another way of experiencing the world and another tool to problem solve with. And absolutely it does need regulation.

I think it absolutely needs much more critical self-reflection and evaluation on our part as humans to like really figure out what are ethical ways to use this. At the same time though, I also want to encourage creatives, really dig into it. Just like you first dug into Photoshop, just like you first dug into any of the things that you— in tools and environments and games that you've explored. Just keep up that childlike wonder.

I think, I think that's that— what that is, what gives an easy argument to these quote unquote AI prompt engineers or these tech bros, to— it makes it easy for them to be very argumentative with us when we're supposed to be the people that encourage curiosity and exploration. But for some reason, when it comes to this there's a large group of us that is very gatekeepy about it.

And I think that just I think it makes it really difficult to reach across the aisle to like figure out like, what can we do with this together with people who are super enthusiastic about AI and creatives that still want to keep their craft and advocate for its importance. Yeah, dig into the tools, figure out like where could it fit in your workflow.

I think at this point we're at a level where a lot of AI tools can offer something that could be very fascinating for it'll create us to tinker with. So, yeah.

Christian Solorzano [71:28]

So talk to us about how you— so you're at one Design, and I'd love to hear about some of the projects that you work on and some of the sectors that you specifically reach. I'm a big fan of one Design's work. I feel like their craft is to me really just exceptional. And I think you guys should update your one Design website. I've been telling David that several times. So David, if you're listening you guys gotta update your one Design website.

Hannah Cormier [72:09]

Please.

Christian Solorzano [72:11]

I'm like, the work—

Hannah Cormier [72:13]

That's why I'm here.

Christian Solorzano [72:14]

And the work that it houses is so freaking awesome. And the website's fine too, but I feel like I've seen the work that you— I've seen the web work that you guys do for your clients, and I'm like, do that same web type of work for yourselves.

Hannah Cormier [72:30]

Yeah, no, I absolutely— I think like that's a shared sentiment at one Design as well. We know I think like we are our own worst critics especially the team at one Design. We're like amongst the team is just a concentrated amount of talent and such like high expectations. And we're always producing such a high caliber of work that we expect that same, that same level of caliber like for ourselves.

And it actually like, it makes it so difficult to be our own critics, to just go like, again, like we like need to, yeah, take a— take ourselves a little less seriously and just like have fun with what could our website be. So I agree. I think like we're finding ourselves struggling a bit with that. And I, yeah, it's our blessing and a curse that our work is so good that it's really hard to do a project for ourselves.

It's never going to be good enough for us. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [73:35]

Well, maybe you guys should get someone else to do the, your website for you.

Hannah Cormier [73:40]

Maybe.

Christian Solorzano [73:41]

Shoot.

Hannah Cormier [73:42]

The— yeah, I think like, I think like the projects at one Design, like I've always just had such a fun time like with approaching each one of them. Like I love the crazy diversity of spaces that we're in for our clients. I've been working a lot with clients in healthcare, biotech, automation, logistics, hospitality, arts and culture. So just a lot of different spaces to be in. And I think like that is something that I was missing from my freelance work.

I think like trying to freelance on your own, you have to be really good at getting your foot in the door at very— with very specific clients and you gotta know people. Who know people, and just the nature of that means that you're gonna funnel yourself into a pretty specific niche, and it could be really hard to transition out of that. So I do appreciate that at one Design, we're always figuring out, how can we break into a new space?

What are other needs in different industries that we haven't touched yet? And how do we figure out where our workflow and process and craft fit into that and meets that need? I think within web specifically just coming across like a huge variety of like different states and contexts for a project, like coming into a website that's already been built, but maybe it's not serving them anymore versus where it's the website is part of a whole rebrand or the website is part of a new brand.

It's and then like we have projects where it's much more heavily about self, about visual expression and pushing the boundaries and really trying to achieve like a super bespoke and unique digital experience for people. There's those projects and then there's also just as important projects where it's all about just optimizing that user experience and they're not as flashy. And they're not as, I guess, bedazzled or all the bells and whistles all there are there.

But it's interesting that like there are clients who really do need just that level of extra polish just from a UX and research standpoint that I'm glad that our studio is also very capable of handling. So from both ends of how to approach those projects it's really cool to see all of that from start to finish.

Christian Solorzano [76:15]

Yeah, I love anytime you guys publish a new, post on LinkedIn. That's usually how I hear about, the new projects is, LinkedIn. Yeah. And what's your relationship to prints? 'Cause I hear you speaking a lot about, digital work, but do you also do print design as well? Or do you much prefer more, digital interactive stuff?

Hannah Cormier [76:41]

Yeah, I, my background, I mean, my first couple of freelance projects were all print. I think there's something really nice to take a break from the screen and be more, much more hands-on. Or even if it starts on the screen, like always having to consider the physical constraints of the output of that and thinking about like thinking about it in 3 dimensions instead of just statically on a screen. I think there's always really cool processes that go into that.

I used to do a lot more of it earlier in my career. I think now I'm much more focused on digital, but print definitely, I have a deep appreciation for. And the people that do it today, I see so much— print is not dead. I see so many amazing, super inspirational print work being done now. And I think with the direction that AI is going, it just makes print pieces so much more valuable.

Our level of craft and taste, that's going to be so much harder for AI to replicate. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [77:44]

Yeah, I agree. I'm always really inspired by like the various Chicago bookstores or even just like there's various like there's like the Zine Fest and then there's like a Chicago Art Book Fair. So like there's always, I feel like there's always new stuff and like there even with us, one of the things that we're currently exploring with our upcoming publication is on different papers and like just paper is a whole world on its own.

Hannah Cormier [78:19]

Yes. Oh, I—

Christian Solorzano [78:21]

It's so cool.

Hannah Cormier [78:25]

I can nerd out about paper types, weights, textures, materials all day. I love when I get the chance to meet people who work in paper and just like get to nerd out with them on that and like Anytime I get my hands on like special specialized paper or industry-grade paper, like it's always just so satisfying to like have that in your hands, something that's not your standard printer paper. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [78:51]

One of the things that the club is currently talking about is doing a tour to a paper mill that is in, it's in Michigan, in Niles, Michigan. And it's a paper mill that's been there, I believe, for 150 years. So this summer we may be like planning like a group trip to a paper mill and we'll like open it up for people to come. 'Cause I think I'm also just, I spend, I spend so much of my time on the computer as well.

And we're designing these interfaces that if there's a power outage or if like the internet goes down or if like some server crashes, like there goes all of our work. It's nice to see that there, there's like still innovation happening in the paper world. That gives me hope.

Hannah Cormier [79:43]

I think like one of my favorite field trips I'd ever taken was to the letterpress museum. Hold on. Where is it? Hamilton. Yes. Hamilton.

Christian Solorzano [80:01]

The name.

Hannah Cormier [80:02]

I went there a handful of years ago. Hamilton Woodtype Museum. Yeah, I went there and I, that just makes me so happy that there is an entire giant place solely dedicated to that craft. And my hope is like similar to how woodtype and letterpress work is now its own artisan craft. And it still exists today amongst all of its newer technologies. I really hope that in the future, that's kind of how some of our fields end up becoming again.

Sure, maybe AI is used a lot more across different workflows and is more baked into a creative process at a commercial level. But it's like, I really hope that, some of those workflows that we have today, make it to an artisan craft level where it's like, you can still pay really good money for this stuff that we used to do all the time.

Christian Solorzano [81:00]

Yeah, I agree. So I'd love to learn a little bit more about— so there's Hannah, and then there's Hannah the designer, and I feel like there's— I wanna know about if there is a side of you that maybe we don't know about. And I'd love to just hear about when you're not, when you're not working, when you're not thinking about these things, what's something that people wouldn't know about you? What's something that, yeah, would surprise people?

Hannah Cormier [81:31]

Outside of design, I am just chronically online. Big memer, honestly.

All of my, I, a lot of my free time, it's a split between always wanting to walk everywhere or like just like really exploring, like always exploring like niche internet culture. I don't game as much as I used to, but like that's still very much part of what I'm steeped in. Like a little bit of gamer culture, a little bit of YouTube culture, Reddit culture, like all of those places. Ironically, standard social media just hasn't really clung to me.

Whatever is addictive about TikTok algorithms, Instagram algorithms has not really caught me. And I like have to force myself and remind myself to update much more mainstream social media platforms.

Christian Solorzano [82:28]

But yeah. What are some of these niche communities that you're a part of or that you're interested in?

Hannah Cormier [82:34]

Yeah, very— IMVU has changed a lot, but in very small ways that I'll still be a part of that community. A lot of the, honestly, like the Reddit communities, like I love like hearing other people's perspectives and problems and just like responding to like super niche subreddits. I'm in one that's like, here, let me pull up, pull up my Reddit feed here.

I think anything that like involves chat rooms or like more casual live forum back and forth dialogue is much more appealing to me than the more traditional Social media, you post something and then people comment. Let's see. I am in. 1,200 is plenty. 15-minute food. Accidental Renaissance. Alt fashion. Apartment hacks. Browser wars, which is how I know about all those browsers. Ask Chicago. Ask Ouija. Award travel. Many Daggers. Let's see. Boggleheads. Yeah. Bokashi. I, this is very, yeah. Budget Keeps. Yeah. I can go keep going.

And so, and I think most of those subreddits I just read to you, make zero sense to anybody listening. But yeah.

Christian Solorzano [83:55]

And are you are you like just like a lurker or are you like an engaged person? Do you have like a lot of statuses and medals and all that kind of stuff that sometimes they give out?

Hannah Cormier [84:06]

I am mostly a lurker. Every once in a while I got something to say, but yeah, I love it for the love of the game, honestly. So.

Christian Solorzano [84:16]

That's cool. And when you're working, what are some what are some things that you usually keep with you to keep you sane? Or just what is usually on your desk and what's something that you carry with you everywhere? What would be like your everyday carry? I know that that's like, I think, a subreddit of like— so what would be your—

Hannah Cormier [84:38]

Okay, everyday carry. I always have— too bad this is a podcast, but I for the longest time like wanted to figure out how to get like all of my keys to like be in a nice compact layout. Because at this point I have like 7 of them and it was just annoying me so much. I figured out that you can take a Chicago screw and put your keys on that.

And then that like solved all of my problems because it was like, I hated like taking keys on and off frequently enough that a regular keychain is so cumbersome.

But obviously it still needs to be like accessible enough to do it. And then like, I have a multi-tool wallet. It's like one of those wallets where like, it's like metal slats, but then the metal like actually has like a couple of different tools carved into it that you could use it for different things. And then it has like an elastic band around it so that you can hold your cards and stuff. And then everyday carry desk items.

I have a couple of key switches for, from mechanical keyboards. I love mechanical keyboard like custom building and like that hobby. I don't participate too much in it right now 'cause it's really expensive. But, I have enough to have a couple of switches on my desk for that. They're actually like really nice fidget tools. I have a Marcel the Shell little figurine. I have a pair of Loopz earbuds. Those are specially crafted earbuds for people with sensory processing disorder.

It actually filters out very specific frequencies that really set off my SPD. So every once in a while I'll grab those. It has my chapstick, I've got my phone, and then I've got a couple of pens and a ruler. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [86:32]

Nice. Very cool. I'm— I want to see the— I'm trying to imagine this screw key thing.

Hannah Cormier [86:41]

Show you. Okay, we got just a little Chicago screw and then all my keys and my fob are on it. Yeah, it's like the in-real-life version of my design sense hates the other ways people have tried to organize their keys. But yeah, you can just take the end off. So I took the little end off and then like now you can just take all these keys off really easily, swap them out for whatever other keys I need at the, at that point.

Christian Solorzano [87:14]

That's pretty cool. I have a very sloppy keychain that I don't even need all the keys on my keychain, but I'm like too lazy to figure out which ones I don't need.

Hannah Cormier [87:26]

Yeah. I mean, for a bit I just kind of gave up and I'm like, I guess I'll just have a couple of different key rings and then just a carabiner to put it on. But I got, I would just get so annoyed by how that looks and like it would it would bang against like my clothes weird and I hate that. So, but I've seen like the like smart key thing, like the long rectangle one some people use. That also doesn't work for me.

I don't know.

Christian Solorzano [87:55]

And what are some of the is there anything that you're working on at the moment that any personal projects or anything that I know you said you're not very active on like things like Instagram, but is there anything you're gonna— you're just— I'm curious about what this, what this year looks like for you and if there's anything that you plan on sharing at some point this year, like personal project or yeah.

Hannah Cormier [88:24]

Yeah, honestly at the moment I don't have too many personal projects going on. I am actually planning my elopement that is taking up the majority of my free time right now. But I want to get back into learning how to use Claude code. I've started to dig into a bit of how to use that in conjunction with Cursor, which is IDE or environments to hold Claude code in. And very interested in starting to do that and to see how, what it can do for me.

I love just like discovering new type foundries. So honestly, like a lowbrow, low effort activity is just like finding new pieces of type to play with and using some of those fun like editors and like online. I think there's always like someone making a really fun CodePen and I always love tinkering around with those and seeing what those can make for me. So little things like that.

Christian Solorzano [89:26]

Yeah. Very cool. And then regarding Chicago, what are some of your favorite places in Chicago that you like to, that you like to check around? What's a place that people may find you at or a place that maybe you're a regular at?

Hannah Cormier [89:44]

Yeah, a little tricky because I am out in Wheaton, but when I am in the city, I'm usually around River North, Wicker Park, Ukrainian Village, and then of course the Loop. I go to Chicago a lot for concerts, so if there's a concert happening whatever neighborhood that venue is in, I'll be there. So.

Christian Solorzano [90:08]

And when you mentioned that you like music EDM, and the other genre was— what was the other one? He said EDM.

Hannah Cormier [90:20]

Hard rock or any one of those. Metal.

Christian Solorzano [90:27]

Yeah, I like concerts. I like live music, but I don't like everything leading up to the concert, like the driving and the parking and the lines and bathroom lines and tickets and all that kind of stuff. I wish I could just like— To my seats and then teleport out.

Hannah Cormier [90:47]

Admit it, please. Yes. Yeah, I honestly, the good thing is that, so my Spotify Wrapped like goes bonkers because I just listen to so many different genres. I literally got a dialogue pop up one time in the middle of my listing that was like, hey, in the past week you've discovered 300+ new genres, including Scottish folk rock. And I'm like, Oh, I didn't know that was a thing you could send users. Okay.

So just to give you a picture of like just how many crazy genres I will discover, I'm always listening to music like almost 24/7. It is just basically this, the eternal soundtrack of my life.

And I think the good thing about knowing so many weird genres is that it makes going to concerts pretty convenient because instead of going to the big ones where you know there's gonna be a crowd, I will go to the underground ones where like at max there's gonna be maybe 50 people there and the tickets are like $30.

Christian Solorzano [91:54]

So. And are you a listener of music? Do you listen to the same song over and over and over again? Do you go through phases where you're just loop, like on loop one artist or one album or one song?

Hannah Cormier [92:07]

It depends on what season of life I'm in. Some— sometimes I'm feeling nostalgic, or like, or a specific playlist or album or artist like really fits the moment and I want to keep coming back to it. Or the specific genre like has so much going on in it that like you do need like multiple listens to absorb it all. Other times like I'm fine with like always exploring new things.

I literally had to make My own playlist called Listenly because I had so many new things that like I would want to keep exploring and like I'd be like, okay, I wanted to come back to this album and then I'd forget what album I was supposed to finish listening to. So now I have to add it to this extra playlist.

Christian Solorzano [92:49]

Yeah. I recently discovered this online radio station called Konzertsender with a Z. Z-E-N-D-E-R. And they have, and they just have like music playing like, 24/7. I believe they have 2 stations and the kind of programming that they have covers everything from like classical to folk to experimental to ambient. And I just love it because sometimes you'll be listening to it and unless you like, use Shazam or something to identify a song, you just won't know what's playing.

And if you miss that opportunity to like ID the song, it's just like it's gone forever. And there's some— there's something cool about listening to something and like just having it be like a thing that you listen to it once in your life. You just have to like, wonder about it. Hopefully you get a chance to experience it sometime in the future again. But—

Hannah Cormier [93:46]

100%. That is how all of I have extremely vivid dreams, including the music that's playing in my dreams. And like the number of times I've woken up like, oh my God, that beat was amazing. And there's no way it exists anywhere in real life. No way for me to find it again. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [94:06]

So I know we're approaching the end of our conversation here, but a lot of people that listen to the show are younger people. Some of them are people that are, that are still in school, or some of them are just like fresh outta college or even more so there's people that are like in transition periods going from student to professional or just transitioning into a different kind of job.

So what's your like advice or your words of encouragement to someone that maybe is listening and maybe is feeling a little bit down or uncertain or just whatever about the industry and everything that's going on?

Hannah Cormier [94:53]

Yeah, I'd say you hold on to your curiosity as much as possible. Foster it. Do what you need to do to keep that alive. I think like what can keep really difficult times, what holds communities together during really difficult times is always finding like a sense of hope or benefit of the doubt, or like that things can get better. Sure, they can always get worse, but like they also can get better, and we just don't know for sure.

And if, being a little bit of an optimist, I think like goes a long way. And I think like that carries into how you approach work but also just like your outlook on design philosophy, just like always staying curious. Don't get attached to any one workflow or tool, like Everything is changing so rapidly. And so keep that curiosity, build your muscle and ability to like want to dig into something new.

Christian Solorzano [95:52]

Okay, excellent. And if people wanna follow up with you, what's the best way for someone to contact you?

Hannah Cormier [96:01]

Yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn, Hannah Cormier, C-O-R-M-I-E-R, Instagram @hannahzco. To be completely honest, I am not great at keeping up with social media. I might take a little bit to respond, but I still have those accounts, so I will get your DM. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [96:20]

Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again, Hannah, for taking the time to chat. It's been nice, learning more about you and getting to know you. I know that we've been in the same, in the same room multiple times these last few years, so I'm excited to see you more often, and thank you for spending Monday on this virtual call with me.

Hannah Cormier [96:49]

Yeah, the pleasure is all mine, and the feeling is mutual.

Christian Solorzano [96:53]

Thank you so much for sticking around till the end. If you enjoy conversations like these, and if you want to learn more about us, the Chicago Graphic Design you can do so by visiting www.chicagographicdesign.club. Thank you, and talk to you soon. Goodbye.