Christian Solorzano [00:00]

Hello, you are listening to Underscore, a show by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I'm your host, Christian Solorzano, and today I'm excited to share my conversation with Kelsey and Andrew of Heart & Bone Signs, a Chicago studio specializing in gold leaf and hand-painted signage. Together, we explore how a chance collaboration casting aluminum mushrooms in an undergraduate sculpture class led to a creative partnership that's now spanned over a decade.

Kelsey and Andrew share their journey from Denver to Chicago, where they fell in love with the gold leaf window signs scattered across the city and set out to learn a craft that they could not stop thinking about. The conversation dives into Chicago's rich sign painting legacy and the design innovation known as the Chicago look. They open up about their efforts to save historic ghost signs from buildings and their deeper understanding of the city that they now call home.

Kelsey and Andrew speak candidly about working 100-hour weeks, the energy that they believe transfers through handmade work, and why preserving Chicago's visual character matters more than ever. Now in an increasingly digital world. If you enjoy these conversations, please support the show by leaving us a rating on your preferred podcast platform. It helps us reach more people in Chicago's creative community and beyond. Thank you for tuning in. Enjoy the conversation. Good morning.

Kelsey McClellan [01:42]

Good morning.

Andrew McClellan [01:44]

Morning.

Christian Solorzano [01:45]

I was mentioning to the both of you that I ran into the both of you at the Letters Beyond Form exhibition at the Design Museum of Chicago. I believe it was late 2024. And since then, I've— I mean, even before then, I was always very familiar with the work that the both of you do. So it's nice to be able to sit with you all, even if it's virtually, to learn more about you and your backgrounds.

Andrew McClellan [02:14]

Yeah, thank you for bringing us on.

Christian Solorzano [02:17]

Yeah. So my first question that I have is how'd you 2 meet each other? And can we— can you guys talk about that and maybe share what was your first impression of one another?

Andrew McClellan [02:28]

We met in undergrad. We were both in a painting class. And I— we were, I think, kind of competitive with one another. Actually, we were not. Maybe we were in painting, but we met, we kind of, we knew each other in this art program, and then we began collaborating in a sculpture class, kind of like very serendipitously.

Christian Solorzano [03:02]

I—

Andrew McClellan [03:02]

It was a casting class where we casted aluminum. And I had brought in like boxes and boxes of fresh mushrooms that had just popped up after the rain. I just gathered a ton because there was like these amazing mushrooms by the— where I was living, and I brought them in and I had too much stuff to cast. And he came in and he had nothing because I forgot about the project.

And so I think we like approached each other and we're like, maybe we could just like collaborate and then we can cast more mushrooms. And then that went really well and we became really close friends and we kept wanting to work with each other and our teacher was like, you can't work with each other anymore. And so really we just have been kind of collaborating ever since. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [04:02]

And then, Andrew, what's your side of the story?

Kelsey McClellan [04:04]

Pretty close.

Andrew McClellan [04:07]

These—

Kelsey McClellan [04:08]

The mushrooms themselves were pretty incredible. The largest one, I would say, is probably about 14 inches across. They were like very unusual gigantic mushrooms. And so she— I get to the class, realize I forgot about the project, start chatting with her. She was like, I'm gonna cast maybe 3 of these. I said, well, how about let's work together and just cast all of them? We go ahead and do that.

She was already kind of involved in the art scene, and so we ended up having a show with all of these mushrooms, and we like created an entire story about them and kind of like a fairy tale kind of thing. Each mushroom had a like life and a name, and we ended up selling all of them. And like made pretty good money on this project, which, being a broke college student was amazing.

And so our artistic collaboration started on a pretty successful note, and as we continued on, we just continued finding success working together.

Christian Solorzano [05:14]

Yeah. And then how much longer before the both of you moved to Chicago to attend School of the Art Institute? Was there something specifically that made Chicago be that next destination for the two of you?

Kelsey McClellan [05:27]

I think so. We're both originally from Denver, and I had moved to Naperville when I was 7 years old. And so I lived in Naperville from 7 till maybe I was 15 or something like that. And then we moved back to Colorado. And so I had always felt like I had unfinished business with Illinois, and I just loved Chicago, having grown up outside of it. And so I was— we were both eager to leave Denver. This is before marijuana had become legal there.

This is before— not too long ago, it's kind of difficult to imagine this, but there was a time where a lot of people didn't even know where Denver was. It was not on the map, even though now it's like, or at least it was kind of changing now again, but one of the most popular places for people to move to, and the market has gone completely insane there. But we wanted something bigger. We wanted to live in a bigger city and just have a different experience.

Andrew McClellan [06:35]

Yeah, we were accepted into a— we were— we applied to schools as a collaborative. Which is like our theme, I guess. And we were accepted into a program in Chicago, and we were accepted into a program in New York. And I think for us, New York seemed like extremely difficult from a financial perspective, and Chicago was accessible, and he was already familiar with it.

And I think I have a memory of like riding the train in the Loop and seeing all the ghost signs for the first time and kind of like just feeling this sort of like attraction to the city and a nostalgia to the city. And I think the program was excited to accept us. And so we chose Chicago.

Christian Solorzano [07:33]

Nice. And then how did the, how did the relationship with signs begin, or how did that develop?

Kelsey McClellan [07:41]

It kind of started pretty much right away. Our studios, when we first moved here, were on Michigan Avenue, and we of course were spending a lot of time walking around in the Loop at that time. And that's when we started noticing all the gold leaf signs all over.

Christian Solorzano [08:01]

Downtown.

Kelsey McClellan [08:02]

And this would have been 2011, I think, and there were even more down there then than there are now. A lot of them have been lost, unfortunately, but we kind of just became entirely enamored with these signs and could not figure out for the life of us how on earth they were made. Despite our best efforts researching how to make them, there was like next to no information online. Of how to make these signs.

And so on one of the signs, Kelsey found a little signature and decided to reach out to the guy, and it was just perfect timing. We were very eager to learn. He was starting to think about slowing down and retiring. He had become very concerned that no one else was gonna come take this up. He had been doing it in the city for 40 years. He had moved here from California specifically to do gold leaf signs in Chicago.

So the legacy of Chicago gold leaf was very important to him, and we really hit it off. And now the best friend we've made since moving to Chicago is a 75-year-old Italian man.

Andrew McClellan [09:15]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [09:16]

And what's his name?

Kelsey McClellan [09:16]

His name is Robert Frese, and the business that he ran was called Chicago Gold Signs.

Christian Solorzano [09:23]

Yeah. And I, and I've read that he's referred to as Goldfather. That's what his Instagram handle says.

Andrew McClellan [09:29]

It is. Leaning in.

Kelsey McClellan [09:32]

His dad is actually from Illinois and had some mob ties. And so he leans into the mob heritage in his family.

Christian Solorzano [09:43]

That's cool. So when it comes to like these signs, is it their aesthetic? Is it their context, like their place in the space that they're in? Is it the technique? What specifically is it that the both of you find really fascinating with this, with this?

Andrew McClellan [10:02]

Well, I'll also add that we had ignorantly painted signs in Denver. We had like no idea what we were doing, and it was kind of like a means to an end because we needed to just make rent. And so I remember the first sign I ever made was for the bicycle shop that I would take my bike to, and they were like, hey, you're an artist, can you do this? And we had some odd jobs. He did this really amazing chalkboard for a local restaurant.

I worked at a coffee shop and would do their chalkboards. We would do things like that, not really understanding, but having an— I think intrinsically, we maybe had an appreciation for letters. And through other forms, potentially graffiti, or just, Denver has really amazing neon signs. And I think once we— so there's always been like this link to sign making as a commercial art.

Kelsey McClellan [11:10]

That's—

Andrew McClellan [11:10]

And so being painters, I think we have a strong understanding of the medium and that process. Figuring out a way to make a living with a paintbrush in your hand is just hard. Not a lot of people are able to do it.

I remember when we were in school, there was like a job platform and there were a couple jobs for making signs, and we would always take them like we took one with for the Harper Studios, and we made like $300, and we thought we were rich.

And so I think like one thing that's been really wonderful about signs is that you are just constantly developing and growing and learning, and I think we're both naturally observant of our environments, and that has just become more heightened as we go deeper into signs and the history of signs. And yeah, would you want to add anything on that?

Kelsey McClellan [12:18]

Yeah, no, they're pretty good.

Christian Solorzano [12:19]

Yeah. So for the both of you, as you began this profession as sign makers, sign painters, what were some of the growing pains that just come with doing this as a thing that's going to be the thing that you do to make a living?

Kelsey McClellan [12:38]

Probably the biggest one is learning how to run a business. Because that is not something— we didn't go to business school. It's not something we specifically had thought we would end up doing. From when we came up with the name Heart & Bone Signs in 2012, I don't think we could have imagined that all these years later we would be running this business. It was just kind of like a fun idea that we had that ended up— we just never gave up on the project.

I think client relationships are probably one of the most important parts of it. The actual painting of the sign ends up just being like a small part of the work that goes into it. So I'd say learning how to run a business was probably the biggest challenge.

Christian Solorzano [13:36]

Yeah. And then the name Heart & Bone, I read that that's a tribute to Lee Scratch Perry. And that there's a big reggae influence with the book, like just in your process or in just your way of thinking. And I'm a big fan of his. And I love his, how eccentric he is. And a lot of the stuff, no matter how wild his, the things that he says seem, they all make a lot of sense if you like really sit with them.

Kelsey McClellan [14:06]

That's true.

Christian Solorzano [14:07]

Like I watched a documentary about him and he was talking about how one of the ways that he would draw inspiration for his songs was by listening to rocks. And just— and I'm like, I get it.

Kelsey McClellan [14:21]

I think he had, he had a job operating like a bulldozer, and he was like pushing boulders off of a cliff and like listening to them smash. Fell down.

Andrew McClellan [14:33]

Yeah, we somehow found a clip of him talking about Creating music, and the heart and bone were the drum and bass of the rhythm.

And how they work together. And that was like, oh, that's how we work together. And it's like so funny to tell people and explain what that is, because most people are like, what are you talking about? But it makes a lot of sense. And I do think that a lot of our work is influenced by music and how musicians collaborate and also improvise off one another is very similar to how we work together.

Christian Solorzano [15:17]

Yeah. So I'm curious about the— how— what is the process of getting a job, like a task to do a sign? How does that usually work? Someone calls the both of you and they make a request, or do you just— I'm very curious about that whole thing and how that goes.

Andrew McClellan [15:37]

Yeah, I— it's— someone will just reach out. Typically it happens in all kinds of ways, but maybe somebody DMs us and we're like, please email us. And they send us kind of what they're thinking or the sign that they looked at or their inspiration. And we look at their storefront or wall or whatever they're looking for, and then we kind of like Work together to figure out the best solution to create the sign that they're interested in having.

So that oftentimes there's a lot of barriers, in Chicago, they're notorious for having mullions in their windows that like a single window will be divided up by like 6 unnecessary mullions. You can't really put a sign on that.

It creates a bunch of obstructions to the design. So a lot of the initial period is just figuring out how strategically to work with their space. And then after that, for the design process, going back and forth and kind of trying to understand what they're looking for and how that fits into what we are able to do and like to do and our aesthetic. And sometimes, it's not— we're very open. We will work with everybody.

We don't, I think we truly believe that signs shouldn't be like a thing of just pure convenience, that signs are part of our— the typography of our landscape and that they should be beautiful. And that if you do invest in your business, it's an incredibly important part of the forward-facing of your business, and that signs can transform that initial interaction with your potential clients.

So we're always looking through the perspective of how do we make this like the best we can and oftentimes we're— this just happened a lot already this year, is that people want more, add all of these words, more words. And we're like, no, less words, less words. I'm sure many designers can understand. We're like— and we laugh because it's, any vinyl, typical vinyl shop would say, okay, great, because that just means more money.

I'll just print more and more and more for you. But for us, we're like, no, you have to like refine it and step back and look at other things and look at spacing and margins and things like that. And so we're always trying to work with the client to interpret their ideas in the way that we think is best for them. And then also the best in relation to the traditional rules of sign painting and layout.

Christian Solorzano [18:47]

Yeah. And is there anything distinct? What makes Chicago signs? Because I, I've been to other cities and there's something that I can't put words to, but when I see a sign in Chicago, there's something that makes it feel like it's a Chicago thing. What— how would you explain that, or is that just yeah?

Kelsey McClellan [19:09]

There's a few different things historically and then contemporaneously. Like the paper signs, for example, that you see in a lot of the grocery stores around the city is a very Chicago look. Have the typically red, blue, yellow paint with the squiggles and all the awesome lettering. That's a very Chicago thing that exists here, and there's variations of it. In LA they kind of have a different style, and in different places throughout the United States there's kind of different styles.

That's one like very Chicago thing, for example. And then with historically, there was this kind of Chicago look that was pioneered a lot largely by the Beverly Sign Company here in Chicago on the South Side. And that was kind of just a way of structuring sign and billboard design using panelization, the concept of using different shapes and colors of panels to emphasize different areas of copy on the sign. I'd say that plays a pretty big role.

And then additionally within that, there would be Usually like a bigger block letter style, oftentimes done in a convex effect, and then I like fun kind of bouncy script. Kind of those 2 things interplaying with each other would be part of like the Chicago look as well.

And then the last example I can specifically name is with the gold leaf signs, the convex effect on the lettering, the kind of 3D chiseled look to the actual face, is something that was developed in Chicago, or I should say popularized in Chicago around the turn of the century, and to this day is called Chicago-style gilding.

Christian Solorzano [21:11]

Yeah, and I'm curious if there's like innovations happening with signs and if there's new Technologies or whether there's new differences that are being introduced to the signs that the both of you or other people are working on. Because some— because what I like about— there's a handful of signs that I really like in Printer's Row, and they all feel so timeless. And it's like they should never change. They're perfect and they need to stay that way.

But I'm also curious if they're is any talk of making small adjustments or doing things that would symbolize like a new era or like a new time and so on?

Andrew McClellan [21:56]

Yeah, definitely. We are part of like a, the renaissance of a new generation of sign painters. I would, I think that kind of, there was a book that came out and a movie that highly recommend if anybody's interested. It's called the Sign Painters Movie.

Kelsey McClellan [22:14]

I think it's just Sign Painters.

Andrew McClellan [22:16]

Sign Painters. Faith Levine and Sam McCon put it out, and it's all of the generation before us. And then there's sort of like a gap because vinyl was introduced, and all of the shops adopted vinyl, and all of the sign painters were basically out of a job, and only like a small percentage of those original sign painters kept going. So like very much from the '90s until the 2010s, people were like not painting signs commercially in a capacity that the market was interested or maintaining.

So, and in fact, many sign shops would say like, we don't do that anymore. They still, and they do that a lot still because it's just not financially a huge windfall for them. It's much easier to just print vinyl. So unfortunately, with that, tons of knowledge was just lost, much of which was design. And many sign shops do not incorporate design as part of their practice, sign shops specifically. And so it's kind of interesting now because AI is coming into the picture.

But in the 2010s, when this movie came out, it introduced the trade to a bunch of new people. We're part of that generation. And I think from then, within the last, decade plus, it has been fascinating to see what people are creating.

And there was actually, a big convention of all the sign painters last year, and, the older generation and the newer generation, and I mean, people are extremely talented. They're at the top of their game. The older generation is just baffled that the generation is continuing it and pushing it.

I don't know if I'll have like terms or names for the different things that we're doing, but a huge part of like what our mentor will always say to us is that like, I was never able to do the more like technical, interesting things that you guys are able to do like and creative. And creative. Yeah, we have this— the one that I think of is Fudo Tattoo, which is on Western, and we were able to do all these cool different effects.

We put pua shell and all, and color blends, all these things that were like not common at all in storefront Signage.

Kelsey McClellan [24:57]

Chicago especially, and in America also.

Andrew McClellan [25:00]

Yeah, usually, like you said, on Printer's Row, that would be the extent of like a gold leaf sign, and that would be like the top that you can get. Banks would get signs like that, jewelers. That was like the top echelon of signs. And personally, I think we both still believe that it is.

But, there are clients that want more and are interested in the art behind the practice and are open to having all kinds of other elements and effects put into it outside of just like a standard gold leaf sign. So I don't know what we would call that, our cohort.

Kelsey McClellan [25:42]

But yeah. Like specifically, even within the Chicago style, the traditional Chicago style gold leaf letter has the two-tone letterface, black outline, and that's it. A drop shadow or a close shade would not even be part of the design, in the very most traditional sense. So even just adding a shade onto the letter, and especially a color shade, is like already— even though it sounds so simple, as far as like the Chicago style, that's already building onto the foundation.

Christian Solorzano [26:19]

Yeah. And what are specific sectors or industries that you find to be the most interested in having custom signs? You mentioned banks and jewelers, but is there anything that come— like, what specifically, what's your clientele mostly?

Kelsey McClellan [26:42]

The past really runs the gamut.

Andrew McClellan [26:43]

Yeah, we work with all kinds of people. The people really interested in the past, 5 years have been tattoo shops. I think they've been the most open to creative ideas, and I would say a lot of the signs we've made that we are most proud of in terms of their level of creativity are for tattoo shops.

But, I think in Chicago where people are aware of gold leaf signs and custom signs in a way that isn't as common in the rest of the country, maybe outside of New York or LA. And so I would say, I mean, we work with a lot of our clients who are interested are small businesses that are in a niche market who have put a lot of thought and care into their business, and they want the sign to reflect that, I think. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [27:45]

Yeah, there certainly is like always a level of respect that I have for businesses that have a custom sign. Totally. Even if I'm not planning on buying anything there, I just know that if I ever need something, I will go to that place because they care about the details.

Kelsey McClellan [28:05]

Yeah, totally. Yeah, sometimes we'll joke with our clients that getting a sign from us is like a good luck charm for their business. For the last, decade that we've been doing this, an incredibly small number of the businesses that we work with end up not being successful or end up closing. Like they so often will end up doing very well. And, it's funny to joke that it's because we gave them a sign. That's why they did so well. But that's not why.

It's because they are invested that much in their business. They take what they're doing that seriously. The kind of person who is going to spend that extra money, who is going to go the extra level to hire us to make their signs, is going to be taking that same ethos into other areas of their business. And that's gonna lead to them being successful.

Christian Solorzano [29:01]

Yeah. And I think, and to me, I also see it as such a, such a strong pushback against everything going digital.

Like everything has become so cheap and transactional and disposable that seeing something that has intention behind it, that has hands involved to me is such a, it's just so cool, especially nowadays, because everything is just so like there, whenever I see movie theaters like switch to digital marquees, I'm just oh, that, well, that changes something, whereas before you'd see the person on the ladder changing letter by letter. So, yeah.

I think people definitely like have this embodied sense of understanding when they see something that comes from the heart and the bone.

Kelsey McClellan [29:56]

And I think that's only going to become more and more the case with AI. Even 5 years ago, we would— people would say that to us, oh, there's a level of authenticity to the work that people, even if it's subconsciously, will recognize. And now God only knows what it's going to look like 10 years from now with all this AI garbage that's getting lopped around everywhere. I mean, it's a hellscape out there.

Christian Solorzano [30:28]

Yeah, I agree. And do the both of you have any relationship with AI? Do you guys incorporate it into anything or?

Kelsey McClellan [30:36]

No, we have not used AI in any capacity. Anytime like a search engine tries to feed me AI, I try to go in and turn the AI settings off. I find the whole thing incredibly disturbing. I know there's no escape. It's a futile resistance, which I fully accept and understand.

Andrew McClellan [30:57]

I will say the one time we did try using it, this was actually a couple of years ago, but we were contacted by a museum, and they were doing an Andy Warhol exhibit, and they wanted us to paint Brillo boxes. And, but they wanted us to like interpret it in a contemporary form. They were essentially asking us to make an art piece. And doing some research on Andy Warhol, I was like, you know what, he would love AI.

I was really interested in the idea of what AI thought of the Brillo boxes. And it was less advanced at that point.

Kelsey McClellan [31:39]

Way less.

Andrew McClellan [31:40]

And it made like hideous, ugly things. And I was like, actually, that'd be kind of interesting to paint because it is like a statement and conversation on AI and art. And the curator was like, I don't like this.

Kelsey McClellan [31:57]

It was back when they— when AI could not do text at all. It was like jumbled alien words.

Andrew McClellan [32:05]

Yeah. And this was the funniest part. So then we painstakingly paint and recreate like 5—

Kelsey McClellan [32:13]

I think it was like 9.

Andrew McClellan [32:14]

A bunch of Brillo boxes. They're really cool and beautiful. I wish we could get one. But we didn't know this. He had also contacted a vinyl shop to make one. And what we did was we changed the text. So we were like, a bright future. We kind of like altered what the original Braille box said, and it was all positive. Yeah. And then we saw the vinyl guy's stuff, and it was like, art sucks.

Kelsey McClellan [32:44]

Dead.

Andrew McClellan [32:45]

It was, it was all vinyl, and we were like, whoa, this is really fascinating to compare our view and perception of the world through this object compared to who our competitor would be. It was like really fascinating. But outside of that, we haven't— luckily we don't have to deal with it. Okay.

Christian Solorzano [33:08]

That's cool. Yeah, I've been I've been using it for certain things here and there, but yeah. But yeah, but it is, it is frustrating that it's just like embedded everywhere, like you cert— you Google something and like the first result now is like an AI answer and sometimes it's not even accurate. So.

Andrew McClellan [33:27]

Yeah, it's— yeah, I think it's interesting to think about. I mean, I know it's gonna become more and more prevalent. I think it's a matter of understanding how to work around it, approach it, work with it if you need to. I think that's kind of part of the future.

Christian Solorzano [33:46]

Yeah.

Kelsey McClellan [33:46]

My take on it is that there are a million and one uses for AI. And I think it can be transformative in an immensely positive way. So many areas that are well beyond what I could even recognize. It's just my personal take that space isn't signs and art and human expression. I'm sure lots of people would have a different viewpoint on that.

Christian Solorzano [34:21]

Yeah. Yeah, there is definitely there is no soul in AI. And I think it's I think it tries to be human sometimes, but you can kind of decipher it. You can see through it. And it's a little, it's a little eerie, I would say.

Andrew McClellan [34:40]

Yeah. I'll also say like a lot of what People don't see from our public, like Instagram and all this, is that like signs take a lot of time. Like hand-painted signs take forever. Well, we work extremely long hours. And I think, like you had mentioned, that people can sense that when they look at it. I do really believe that even if the person isn't watching the hand in the process. They can see it after. And it's an energy.

I know this is like where the Lee Perry comes in, but I genuinely do believe that like the energy we put into our work is picked up and received by the viewer. And you can't really quantify that or explain it or see it, but in the physical form, but the hours and energy just can't be replicated by AI in any capacity.

Christian Solorzano [35:41]

I agree 100%. So speaking of hours, I read somewhere online that sometimes you guys work over 100 hours a week.

Kelsey McClellan [35:52]

That is way more than I would like to admit.

Christian Solorzano [35:57]

So can you walk us through like a typical week? Like a normal week.

Kelsey McClellan [36:05]

Sure. I'd say because our— because we're married and we love what we do, there's kind of the old adage that if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. And I'd say, actually, if you love what you'll— you do, you will work every day of your life. It's quite the opposite, at least in our experience. And so it's just 7 days a week.

I think we're— it essentially comes down to— this may not be walking through a week per se, but we are at a point where most wise people would hire employees and start to delegate some of the— that we have. We're the owners of our business, but we're also the janitors of the business too. And we do every job, everything in between. We also were smart enough to start an entire other business. So we also run a publishing business as well. We're writing books.

Those, of course, take a very painful amount of time to put together. So we're shipping out books every day. We're doing tons and tons of fielding emails and correspondence with clients.

Andrew McClellan [37:26]

Designing.

Kelsey McClellan [37:26]

Designing, scheduling, working in our shop, creating, getting ready for the jobs, making sample work for the jobs if necessary. Oftentimes the— a typical job, depending on what it is more than one day on site. So you're traveling to and from where you're working. Oftentimes it's 10 hours on site, and then you have the front end and the back end of that, the travel.

Usually from the minute we wake up in the morning, we're talking about what has to be done for the day over breakfast, over coffee. We're going through emails, and then we're at our shop getting ready for the day. Then we're working all day, then we go home and talk about what we have to do for the rest of the week and the next day. And then you wake up and do it all over again.

Christian Solorzano [38:14]

It sounds really cool, honestly. It sounds like the dream.

Kelsey McClellan [38:19]

I mean, here's the thing. I wouldn't trade it for anything. We've worked ridiculously hard to get to where we're at and so fortunate to have so much of what we've been able to accomplish has been through our own just unwillingness to fail and through fortunate timing.

We couldn't have been more lucky with meeting our mentor, Robert. That really set the stage for everything that was gonna come afterwards. And then I think it just so happens that we have fallen into this artistic commercial— some people would call it commercial art practice— that is not as easily eroded and affected by these technological advancements, by the AI advancements.

So many people in the artistic space, especially in the commercially artistic space, are really gonna see immeasurable changes from AI, and to the point of their jobs disappearing entirely. So I think we've just gotten very lucky, really, at the end of the day, to fallen into what we decided to do when we decided to do it. Yeah, I think it's quite a bit of fortune on our side with that.

Christian Solorzano [39:42]

And can you speak a little more about the publishing arm, the publishing that you're doing?

Andrew McClellan [39:47]

Absolutely. We actually have our book. Little plug. So this kind of started in the summer of '22. There was a ghost sign that was uncovered. Oh, yeah, that's it.

Christian Solorzano [40:04]

There it is.

Andrew McClellan [40:05]

Ravenswood neighborhood. Basically, in the middle of the night, the developer of the property took down the siding that had asbestos in it because they didn't want to deal with the city. Well, underneath that siding were these like perfectly preserved ghost signs from the 1920s and the 1930s. And it was just this weird example where the building— it was like a classic Chicago 2-flat— had been the corner of— I'm not sure where it was.

Kelsey McClellan [40:35]

Ravenswood and Addison.

Andrew McClellan [40:36]

Yeah, but, and it was a gas station. And then back in the day, they would move buildings, so they had moved it like 190 degrees. And at that point, they put— because I guess this was a baking district— they put a sign for bread on the other side. So it was just this weird instance where this building had 2 amazing signs on it, and they were on wood paneling, so it could be taken down. And my friend was like, hey, did you see this?

Somebody had tweeted about it. And we ran over there because we were just whoa, this is crazy. And standing in front of it was like, holy shit, this is amazing, because the colors were so vibrant, and you could just see— it was like standing in 1929 in front of the sign. It was so cool. And without really thinking at all, we were like, we have to save these signs. And we were like climbing all over the other buildings trying to get—

Kelsey McClellan [41:42]

We were like going over the fence, trespassing into the other place, and climbed up the building to get a better photo.

Andrew McClellan [41:47]

We were like just fiends over the sign.

Kelsey McClellan [41:50]

And I think she touched on it, that the thing that, looking back on it, I'm able to understand why, but on the bread sign, the red on it was so bright. And, as many of your listeners probably know, red is the most fugitive color, especially red in the '30s. So to see bright red paint from 1936 outside in the sun was like an experience that you just don't get to have. It's just not a thing that exists.

Andrew McClellan [42:23]

So we basically tried to start getting it, saving the sign. And as we're doing it, one of our other mentors was like, oh, this— wait a minute, this bread sign has a signature of Briggs. I wonder if that's Jack Briggs who started Beverly Sign Co.

And just through different connections, somebody contacted Tim Samuelson, who is the historian emeritus for the city of Chicago. This very eccentric guy that knows everything about Chicago. And he was like, yeah, that's— this is his whole story. He had like done a quick like research on it. And we were like, wow, this is insane. Our mentor Bob Bohonek was like, well, my mentor was taught by— my mentor worked at Beverly Sign Co. And Beverly Sign Co.

In the sign painting community is revered for their extraordinary sign design, which he talked about earlier. They developed panelization and—

Kelsey McClellan [43:38]

The Chicago look.

Andrew McClellan [43:39]

Yeah. And so he said, I have hundreds of original sketches. You— my mentor always wanted to make a book. Do you think we can do it? And we were like stupid and said, yeah. And so that just started this whole project. And because for us it was like a no-brainer, it's like flipping through all these sketches, it just made the most sense to put in book form so people could have the same experience.

Because just uploading them and putting them on a blog or something would just, I don't know, take the— this certain quality out of them. So, but we had no idea how to make a book, and that was like the really difficult part. And we did a GoFundMe, or no, Kickstarter.

Christian Solorzano [44:31]

Kickstarter.

Andrew McClellan [44:32]

So that allowed us to make the book and it went really well. And so essentially, we kind of caught the bug. We were like, this is awesome. And in the process, also kind of came to understand that there's not a lot of books being made about the subject and also sign painting. And because when we started approaching bookstores, they're like, Why does anybody care about this? And we were like almost as if like, yeah, that's a cute little project.

And oh, whoa, this is like something that probably is necessary. And a lot of our influence too was from the tattoo community, who's— which is very good about documenting their craft and publishing it. And so we were like, I think this is something we need to do and keep pursuing. And so we're now very close to being done with a book about stock car racing lettering in Chicago.

And we have a few other projects that we're working on and just trying to— a lot of it is like convincing people that their work is important enough to be published. Because a lot of painters are like, I'm just a sign painter, like this doesn't matter.

Kelsey McClellan [45:59]

I'm just a guy who didn't finish high school. Who wants to know anything about me?

Andrew McClellan [46:04]

They're very modest. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [46:08]

And then for those there was also a GoFundMe that was created to save Chicago Go signs. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Because I did see that the, that GoFundMe was paused, so I'm not sure what the status of that is. And also, I'm just curious about ghost signs in general. I would imagine people would want to preserve them, but I also imagine that there's people that probably just want to paint over them.

Kelsey McClellan [46:34]

Oh, yeah. There's a GoFundMe. We did make a GoFundMe in order to pay for the scaffolding to remove the 2 signs that we took down, and that's come and gone. It succeeded. We were able to raise the money that we needed to work with Our great friends at Black Cat Scaffold allowed us to safely remove the signs. So this other one that's been paused, that I'm not sure if we know about that one. That may not have anything to do with us.

I can't really speak to that specifically, but I would say that it's a real mixed bag when it comes to these ghost signs, because some people, like us, like-minded folks, see them and immediately recognize their value. They're so valuable. It's like this snapshot to a different time.

Andrew McClellan [47:23]

It—

Kelsey McClellan [47:23]

There's so much to be gleaned from them on top of them just looking awesome, just from an objective aesthetic standpoint. And so oftentimes people do want to save them. Sometimes people see them and just see dollar signs, and they just want to try to sell them if possible. Obviously, if it's something on a brick wall, it's next to impossible to move like that. And then, of course, in the case of Developers, they don't care. I would say 99.999% of them don't care at all.

If something gets revealed during their demolition process, then just keep on demolishing, get rid of it, or cover it, cover it up. I mean, oftentimes, and it's really— I'm sure you've heard of stories when this happens. It happens every so often. A building will come down that has a party wall. Or when a building is built against an existing building, then they just don't build another wall. They just hold on to that wall.

When that building comes down, oftentimes when this— when the internal, siding material comes off, it'll reveal an exterior ghost sign inside the house.

Which is cool. And so sometimes people are fortunate, they realize that, underneath this plaster they have an entire incredible ghost sign, in their living room. And then they'll— some folks will keep it. And I mean, how cool is that? It's incredible. Some folks will just paint right over it. And then other times when a building comes down, it'll reveal an incredibly well-preserved sign on the side of the building. And then another building just goes right back up and still technically there. It just can't be seen.

Christian Solorzano [48:58]

Yeah.

Andrew McClellan [48:59]

And I think as they disappear more and more, hopefully people realize that they're not coming back. So yeah, and so it's important to keep them. And I feel this way too about like all the neon signs in Chicago. Once the signs come down, they'll never go back up. And if we just lose all of our neon signs, all of our old ghost signs, then that's it. Our city will not have that character, which I think arguably is a huge reason why so many people love Chicago.

We also are very strongly inspired by the preservation aspect of signs and sign history as well. It's really important to us to, advocate for that as well. We're like the people— I got called— what was I called by a developer? There's like a term.

Kelsey McClellan [49:59]

NIMBY.

Andrew McClellan [50:00]

Yeah, I was called a NIMBY. Because I was like, we have to save the architecture and signs. And which means not in my backyard, I guess. It's like it's a derogatory term for people who are preservationists. And I was like, I guess I'm a NIMBY. I don't want these beautiful signs to leave. Why would you want that?

I think Chicago is gonna see more and more of this as it— I think it's— there's a lot of projection that it's gonna grow a lot in the next decade plus. So I think preservation is gonna be something we're all kind of like faced with. And I do think that there's been like a casualness or a blasé— I— it's not, well, there's another sign around the corner kind of thing, because there are a decent amount in Chicago, but they are Fading and they're disappearing quickly.

And there's— because of sign code, people, you cannot create these signs again.

Kelsey McClellan [51:04]

I'm really like the big, the big neon, awesome neon signs. Even if it were to come down to be repaired, you cannot put it back up. That's it. Once it comes down, it is down. And it's a— they're only up now because they're grandfathered in. And so they're allowed to maintain them. And if they're able to be maintained in place, but the current sign code just unequivocally prohibits any type of large neon sign from being constructed. Huh.

Christian Solorzano [51:37]

Interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. And as historians, is there anything in your personal collection, I'm curious about what's your more, most like cherished possession that you guys have that you've collected throughout your research and interest in history and all this? Because I see the stuff behind you, and I imagine that you guys must be surrounded by history all the time.

Andrew McClellan [51:59]

Yeah, well, you'll have to— we'll have to invite you over. But the one thing we collect are glass signs made in Chicago during the turn of the century. So there was this company called Rossin and Evans, and they developed this technique called glue chipping on accident. And I think he's gonna grab one. Essentially is where the surface of the glass is chipped from animal glue hide, animal hide glue. And so it creates this really crazy texture.

Christian Solorzano [52:39]

That's amazing. So what year is that from?

Kelsey McClellan [52:41]

This is probably like 1905 or something like that.

Christian Solorzano [52:45]

Interesting. Yeah, it looks so otherworldly, like it would come from like a spaceship or something.

Andrew McClellan [52:52]

Totally. Yeah, it's super organic. There was like by where the stock exchange is downtown, and what is the that Frank Lloyd Wright building, the Rookery, like across from the Rookery, was where this company had like a 6-story building.

Kelsey McClellan [53:16]

13-story.

Andrew McClellan [53:16]

And they, all they did were make these signs, and they were known throughout the country for these signs, and they would ship them all over. So they would make signs like, we'll go to other parts of the country and somebody might have one of these signs because like, for example, like a candy store in Kentucky that we know about has one because they've been in business for over 100 years, and it's a family-run business.

So they had someone in their family had ordered this sign 100 years ago from Chicago.

Kelsey McClellan [53:55]

Still have it.

Andrew McClellan [53:56]

So that's like our favorite thing to Try to find.

Kelsey McClellan [54:02]

And to bring it back to the beginning, the piece that we had made for the Design Museum show was in that style. We make signs like that ourselves. So, and it's like Kelsey had said, it was developed and patented here in Chicago. And so that history is an amazing thing that we are totally enthralled with.

Christian Solorzano [54:28]

Yeah. So if there's, for people that want to get into sign painting, like what is a way to just dip your toes into determining whether it's the right thing for you? How does one get into it?

Andrew McClellan [54:42]

I would definitely suggest like following people's work who you like. And I think people overlook this, but just being nice to people that you look up to is like the best way to develop relationships. I saw a lot of people were like, oh well, you found your mentor and all this happened. It's not— we— he didn't want to tell us anything for a long time. We very much like gloss over it. He, as all— many sign painters are protective over the craft and their secrets.

And especially the old guard was very much like this.

Kelsey McClellan [55:29]

And he wanted to make sure we were serious.

Andrew McClellan [55:32]

I guess gatekeeping now. But yeah, he wanted to know we were serious about it and took it seriously. And it— and also like cared about him as a human and what he did and what he's contributed. And so, we've developed a relationship just through kindness and mutual respect. And we both like the same stuff. So I think it's just— that is a really good start because I think sometimes people are like, teach me everything, and like you don't even know their first name.

So that I think is always great, just to like be cool and friendly and be open to learning. And also there are workshops.

Kelsey McClellan [56:15]

Yeah, I was gonna plug our friends who are very much kindred spirits to ourselves, Noble Signs in New York. They also run the New York Sign Museum, and that's upstairs of their actual shop. They run, with guest teachers, really good sign painting workshops.

So if you were serious about wanting to try this out and see if it's for you, I would highly recommend following Noble Signs, follow the New York Sign Museum. And look out for those teachers that come through, and they'll teach like 1, 2, 3-day sign painting classes. Guy by the name of Jed Palmer, who's an amazing, incredibly talented guy who is an excellent teacher. He lives in England. He comes through every now and again. Another guy, his name is Peter. He goes by Letterboy online.

He is He lives in Japan, but he's always in the US teaching workshops. And then there's another guy who lives in Boston. His name is Kenji, and his Instagram is @needsignswillpaint. He's an amazing letterer, amazing teacher. Yeah, those 3 guys would be the ones that I would recommend trying to take a class from the most, and those classes sell out pretty fast. They're pretty popular.

Andrew McClellan [57:36]

I think it's important to start with the painting and like understanding how to draw and paint letters correctly. Because a lot of— I personally, I think if you— which is what we did— you start step 1 and you grow and develop through that. And then because you have that foundation, you are able to then use that in other— steps of your career, because everything goes back to that.

And of course, something that we always tell ourselves as well, and we in our busy schedule make time for, is practice. That's like pivotal to maintaining the craft. Your craft is making time to practice just simple letterforms. A lot of what the beginning of sign painting is painting just strokes one after another and learning how to properly paint a stroke just up and down.

Kelsey McClellan [58:44]

Like the different shapes that end up constructing letters. Yeah, in the old— back in the day with the old sign apprenticeships, you wouldn't paint any words or any letters for months. It would just be these practice sheets of just Horizontal, vertical strokes. That's— wow.

Christian Solorzano [59:04]

So as we come to the end of our conversation, I'd love to discover or like hear about when the both of you are working, what are the things that are usually in place to get the best work out of you? Is it, is it music? Is it a smell? Is it like, what is your work situation like when you're when you're like deep in focus, what are some things that you guys can't live without, like at your desk?

Kelsey McClellan [59:34]

Well, that's a good question. We've— so much of our work as far as like the actual making of the signs is done on site that we're very much just at the mercy of whatever the circumstances are. Sometimes it's really awesome and we're working at a record store and they're spinning records and we're having a great time. Sometimes, yeah, it's not like that at all.

Andrew McClellan [59:56]

We were talking about this the other day. We really Making signs on site is like a test of your focus because it's really difficult. And so figuring out a way to like tune everything out and zone in a very chaotic environment is difficult. So we like in those circumstances when a business is like, hey, we're closed this day, you can come work. But in terms of like designing, I would say, we have a really extensive book collection that is like so helpful and important.

We're like working and stuck with an idea and need inspiration, like crack open a book and it's like boom. Try to come up. Yeah, just getting new ideas and thinking differently about the layout that you're working on is so helpful.

Kelsey McClellan [60:56]

We play a lot of music. We collect a lot of records. And so we're always— we have a collection of records at our shop, collection of records in our home, record players in both spaces. We listen to a lot of reggae, a lot of jazz, mostly what we're listening to.

Christian Solorzano [61:13]

Yeah. And what's the, what's the secret to being collaborators and being both like a married couple, but also being coworkers and partners, how do you— do you guys get into conflict and how do you resolve conflict? I'm just curious about what are those ingredients that have kept you both?

Kelsey McClellan [61:37]

I think it's the same thing with any relationship, with any partnership, is that your wife is always right. And so as long as you remember that, you won't have too many problems.

Andrew McClellan [61:49]

Yeah, I think that is true. But also understanding how to compromise. And, I think about this a lot. Our goal is always for us to succeed as a team. It's never like I'm— the focus is on me or the focus is on him. And any specific task. And say we have different ideas, which happens all the time.

I mean, it probably is why we do get into arguments, because one of us feels very strongly about an idea we have and the other person's like, you gotta tweak it this way or that way. Knowing that, I guess understanding that like that is an advantage to having like a built-in sounding board.

Kelsey McClellan [62:39]

Sounding board.

Andrew McClellan [62:40]

Soundboard or proofreader, whatever you want to call it, to better whatever you're doing is kind of like, as a, it can be an agitation or it can be like a really good thing. And understanding how to adapt and compromise within that is really important.

Christian Solorzano [63:00]

Yeah. And as we, as the both of you look into the coming year, 2026, is there anything that we can expect to see that isn't made public yet? Or what is, what is the year looking out to be for the both of you?

Kelsey McClellan [63:16]

We've got some really cool book projects coming out. The Speedway Lettering is definitely coming out this year. We're very excited about that. I think people are really going to get a lot out of it.

Andrew McClellan [63:27]

I'll say last year we had a crazy year. I, we achieved things I never thought that we would achieve and do. It was crazy. So I think this year, we really are like, a lot of what we want to do is make art for ourselves, things like that. And kind of, yeah, just, I mean, it was like, we did an awesome project with Field Notes where we did the COVID of their spring edition, which was insane.

We were got— we had the opportunity to be on WTTW with Jeffrey Baer, which was like crazy. We gave a presentation at this giant meet with all of our sign peers, which was like probably the scariest thing we've ever done. Worked with like incredible clients.

Kelsey McClellan [64:26]

Got to paint a 22-foot-wide Blackhawks logo for the Blackhawks. That was pretty cool.

Andrew McClellan [64:32]

Yeah. Yes, last year was crazy. So I think we're kind of just like enjoying what we accomplished and trying to like make work for ourselves as well and not lose sight of that.

Christian Solorzano [64:47]

Okay. Amazing. I just want to say thank you so much for both of your time today. I'm really inspired by the both of you, and I think I'm more so inspired just because, like I was mentioning earlier, the world seems like it's just going in this like tech, techie, digital direction that I feel like a lot of my peers are so repulsed by.

So to see that there's peers in Chicago that are putting in the hours and putting in the work to create things that have soul is really— it feels very encouraging. So I just want to applaud the both of you for creating that work and putting in the time and just being a source of inspiration to so many. So—

Kelsey McClellan [65:34]

We really appreciate that. Thank you very much.

Christian Solorzano [65:36]

And then I would also love for the both of you to maybe come up with a cool Heart & Bone playlist that we can share with our listeners, because I'd love to just get into the headspace of what the both of you are listening to when you're working.

Kelsey McClellan [65:53]

Awesome. We'll definitely do that.

Christian Solorzano [65:54]

Cool. All right. So with that said, thank you so much.

Kelsey McClellan [65:58]

Yeah.

Andrew McClellan [65:59]

Thank you.

Kelsey McClellan [65:59]

Thank you. It's been a great time.

Andrew McClellan [66:01]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [66:01]

As always, thank you so much for sticking around till the end. As I mentioned in the beginning, we really appreciate your support when you leave us a rating. Thank you, and we'll talk to you soon. Goodbye.