Christian Solorzano [00:05]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club dedicated to bringing you conversations with Chicago's creative community. On this podcast, we'll explore the craft, theory, and practice of graphic design, plus discuss bold ideas that push the boundaries of what's possible and ways in which we can create a more thoughtful and inclusive creative community. To learn more about the Chicago Graphic Design Club, visit our website at www.chicagographicdesignclub.org. Special thanks to the Chicago band 80 Slang for our theme music.

Hey everyone, my name is Christian Solorzano. I am the founder of the Chicago Graphic Design Club. And today I am pleased to be speaking with John Hatherly, a multidisciplinary designer, artist, and brand strategist that works towards building experiences that create positive cultural value in society.

I've known John for about almost 2 years now, and I would say that over the past 2 years that I've known them, I've quickly considered them to be one of my really good friends, and their work is just really inspiring, and I'm very much looking forward to this conversation with them today. So I guess before we get started, John, I noticed that you actually have a degree and a background in mathematics and economics from Loyola University here in Chicago.

So would you like to Talk a little bit about that and how that led you to the work that you're doing today.

John Hatherly [02:02]

Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show. Definitely excited to talk about all this stuff. Yeah, I guess getting back into that relationship, I've always had an interest in science and its relationship to how we kind of perceive the world and really just any kind of input that I can take and use as a way to construct any sort of narrative to make me move my life forward. Pretty interested in.

And so whether it's science or religion or anything, I've always kind of used it as it's all the same thing to me. And so I was really fascinated with patterns and just thinking about how people interact in economic patterns. And so that was kind of my foray into education to begin with. Yeah. Got it.

Christian Solorzano [02:52]

And I understand that you're not originally from Chicago, you're from Texas. Is that correct?

John Hatherly [02:57]

Yeah, I was originally born in South Texas in a city called Corpus Christi. It's right along the Gulf of Mexico, and so I had the opportunity to grow up along the beach and enjoy the bright 330 days of sunshine every year. A bit of a trip coming up here and getting used to the cold weather, but I love this city quite a bit.

Christian Solorzano [03:17]

Got it. And could you tell me a little bit about just your upbringing and some of the, your past life in Texas and how you how you bring that into what you're doing now in Chicago.

John Hatherly [03:31]

Yeah, I think I've always had a bit of a— whether it's a spiritual leaning or religious, I wouldn't say I really prescribe to a particular sect or anything like that, but I've always had some sort of thought that there was something bigger than me and that maybe we were all kind of connected to it. And so I think that was a major— has always been kind of a major point.

A way for me to kind of figure out what my North Star is in my life is grounding it in that sort of world of intentionality. Also, just thinking about my own personal experiences, I didn't have the best childhood growing up. I lived in this place where it was essentially you had a roof over your head, electricity, or food, and you could pick 2 of those things, but you probably weren't going to get the 3rd one whenever you had the other 2 coming at you.

And so I think that just Having the process and understanding that the world is a place that needs a little bit more love and we can bring that for each other. And maybe that's how we do it, is just doing it for each other as opposed to thinking that the constructions that we can make are gonna do it for us or that the love that we seek is in the future.

Kind of, yeah, it really does ground how I look at the sort of communication that I build and the objects I make.

Christian Solorzano [04:55]

Got it. And yeah, I totally see that in your work. You appear to be very purpose-led and very purpose-driven. And the studio that you run, San Work— I love your manifesto, first of all, and I would love to dig a little bit deeper into your manifesto and what I'm going to be calling like the pillars or like the foundation of it.

So on your website you have think well, be nice, and do good, which are— I mean, I don't think many people would disagree with those statements as being something not to work towards. But I'm very curious to see how, or to understand how you go about activating these 3 things. I see for like think well, you have timing matters, never lose the wonder you have for life.

Everything is matter, everything matters. So given that designers, the work that we tend to do often perhaps doesn't allow for some of that wonder or some of that, human aspect of things I know you talk a lot about love and you talk a lot about, humility and wisdom. So very curious to see how you actually go about activating those things and how they take shape in the work that you're doing?

John Hatherly [06:28]

Yeah, so even before getting into the work, I think that the way to activate those things is just waking up in the morning and trying to live that life. Maybe it's not just the studio practice, but for me it's more of just my practice and that I could align my practice in life with how I'm activating the kind of creative world that I'm also building.

So in 2020, during the height of the pandemic or low point, however you want to look at it was the— I think the most intense part of the lockdown in Chicago around March or so. I started thinking about the fact that I had spent my career working in branding as a designer, but specifically in branding and identity design.

And I had this kind of moment of clarity where I had this aha moment of like, oh, I've been doing this for other brands and other companies and building dreams for people. And I had never thought about actually using this particular skill set that I had built for my career for myself in a way that was very intentional and very authentic and not just oh, I'm going to build a company to sell things on Etsy, which is really cool.

But that just wasn't what I was looking at the height of lockdown when you're really trying to judge how you should move forward in a really chaotic and kind of disturbing world. And so Sondwerk was really born from this idea of grounding everything in my life to myself and making sure that I was whole first.

I kind of speak to this idea of the— this idea that the universe is a stakeholder, but I also take that to the other end of the spectrum to understand that I'm part of that universe. And that if the work that I'm trying to create isn't whole for me, that it's not complete and it's not the kind of work that I think I wanna keep doing.

And so just thinking about how I activate it, it's really just the day-to-day decisions of like, is this a safe space for me to be in? Is this the kind of object that I have made that I wanna make again? Can I come back to being critical about things and not being critical in a way that is scary, but can I create a space for other people to take criticism in a place that's whole.

Thinking even how I take it into my day job in that world, how I try to set up critiques and think about setting up a safe space for people to really flourish in a creative world that can really, I think, be unsettling at times. If you look at mental health records for people in the creative industries, they're not good. And I think there's a lot of pressure on us to perform. And so we have to push back a little bit.

Christian Solorzano [09:11]

Got it. Yeah, I remember from a conversation that you and I had a few months back, and something that I still come back to regularly, is you were talking about some of the work that you were doing, and you said that you really try to do work that is good for you.

And I think when I heard you say that, I agree with it 100%, but it's also just like such a radical thing to say because I, for the most part, it seems like many of us have just been trained since our childhood to think that the work we do is always not for ourselves, but for this other thing out there. So yeah, I think I definitely see you live out your manifesto like day to day.

And for the people that are listening, I would encourage you to go just check out John's work. We'll post some links on our website. But I'm very curious about— so right now you are— you work at an agency and you're also running your own independent creative practice. I'm very eager to learn about the things that are inspiring you now. And yeah, just sort of what does John's world look like? What do you— how does your space look like?

What do you— yeah, just what are the things that cultivate this drive in you to continue to do what you're doing?

John Hatherly [10:51]

Yeah. So quickly, I made it quickly, just getting back to 2020, I made a few pieces that I thought were impactful, but they were difficult for me to make, and I basically cried through the entire process of them. It was also just a traumatic year in general, but the pieces in general were just kind of a violent kind of idea. And I got away from that after 2020.

At the end of every year, I always spend time reflecting and spending, not necessarily making New Year's resolutions, but kind of just reflecting and thinking about how to move forward. And so I'd kind of come to this space of like, okay, I really need to be very intentional about the space that I make is a very whole space for me and the people around it. And so, yeah, I think that the space that I create, it's organic, it's soft.

I think about things that are gonna make people feel welcome, myself included. Even thinking about getting into the, my kind of materiality and just the process of how I make a piece of communication. Maybe it's more analog in general because sitting at a desk is gonna be ruining my back and my digestive system and the things that are getting crunched up in it.

Maybe there's something to the— this idea that everything is connected so that my kinetic form and movement can be inspiring into the kind of work that I'm doing. And so yeah, I guess that's where I can start that kind of conversation.

Christian Solorzano [12:21]

Got it. And then, and then just looking a little bit further when you think about the design industry or the creative industry, whatever you want to call it as a whole, like what's something that you think we should be focusing more on? Are there any, like anything, any things that come to mind when you look at the— yeah, when you just look at our industry?

John Hatherly [12:51]

Yeah, I think, and maybe this extends past just our industry in general, but we're kind of at the point of activation for it because we're that creative world of making the things that people are looking at. But I think about value a lot and how we objectify it. For me, this idea of objectifying value onto something that we're both kind of competing for, and this idea that there's this limited resource for something, I think that is a very dangerous idea.

And our industry is at the heart of communicating things like that. And so just thinking about getting inspired by maybe people who are trying to create objects and communication around things of different value, or maybe looking at valuing just existence as value itself, whether it's a human in life or my cat or a tree or something that's less animated. I think just thinking about the sacredness of existence is really important as our designers moving forward. And I think there's some really interesting people doing that.

I wouldn't necessarily call him a designer, but James Turrell and just what he does as an artist, I think is really impactful. And I think that that's really interesting. Looking back in time, I think is also really important. And so like Helmut Klimt is a really inspiring person to me as well, thinking about why she was thinking about creating abstract work in itself was really impactful for the work that I do.

Christian Solorzano [14:29]

Got it. And then, and then I know, I know it's very easy to just go down this rabbit hole of— to go down a rabbit hole of negativity and just pessimism and think that the world is crap and that everything is falling apart. But what are you excited about? What are the things that excite you the most about the world right now? Even though we are living through war and pandemics and so much inequality, how do you maintain a sense of optimism?

John Hatherly [15:11]

That's a really good question. For whatever reason, I have always been an eternally optimistic human being. But also at the same time, I've also been kind of okay with the fact that we're all kind of fucked. And I think that that's where the beauty is. And that's what brings me the most joy in life is knowing that this time that we're here is really special, that I don't think that we're going to get to do it again.

And it makes me sad to think about that, but also it makes me really glad to know that I'm here. Having this conversation with you and getting to make objects that people look at and feel emotions for.

Christian Solorzano [15:51]

I agree. And I would say that the work that you create definitely conveys that. And I'm looking at— so when I look at your work, I notice that you create series. And could you talk a little bit more about just your thought process when you're— when you go about creating like a collection of artwork, I know one of the— one of your series you mentioned as exploring the intersection of mathematics and mindfulness, which I think is super interesting.

I'm just very curious to hear about how you— How you go about saying, all right, I'm gonna create a new series and this is what it's going to be about, and then this is what it's going to look like? Just very curious to hear about your process there.

John Hatherly [16:43]

Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of a whole bunch of things kind of wrapping up and whirling around and becoming something. And eventually you're like, okay, I think it's called this. But yeah, I have notes that I keep. I have a running list of notes for ideas, and that's usually like my starting place.

Up at this point, I've got like thousands of different ideas and different things I revisit, and they'll pop back up into my lists because I've reactivated it and put another note into that particular category. And so that's usually my starting point of like thinking about what I'm doing right now. And then from that world, I kind of piece that out into like more like quadrants or like separate piles of different ideas that have a bit more of a theme to them.

And then from there, I think that I just start to resonate with something that has some like personal meaning to it. And so I always try to have this personal relationship to something I'm making.

And then just within this process, I'm also thinking about what came before me. I think about time as not being linear. And so for me, I'm also existing in the past and in the future. And so for me to think about the future, it's in the present tense. And I think that this idea of whether it's jazz or the Chicago scene of improvisation or Helmut Klimt coming up with abstract art or David Carson doing really crazy abstract funky design work.

I think that that's really where my personal aesthetic lies, is this idea that everything is jazz. And so that's kind of where this starts to coalesce into this improvisational point of like, okay, it's starting to get danced into this. It's not fully forming into this thing I can fully see, but there's a theme around it. And so that turns into these sort of meditation sessions.

And those meditation sessions are on certain ideas that I've pulled from this pile or pulled from this theme that I'm working off. And so for this particular one, it's making myself whole and finding this new path that I'm trying to live in this life. And so the theme of this particular collection of Uncharted Familiar, it's this idea that there's no new path, everything is familiar. It's always been in existence, but maybe it's just uncharted in a different way this time.

And so that was kind of where this improvisational drawings were coming from. Yeah, and so I guess from that point it's thinking about materiality and how that can connect with my audience, right?

And so I love things that are softer and more organic, and so I used a lot of things like charcoal and soft pastel, and I really resonate towards using a lot of gold leaf, just also thinking about this idea of objectification of objects and ideas and re-objectifying something away from it just being of financial value, but maybe it's the value as in the fact that it makes the space feel more whole and more friendly. Got it.

Christian Solorzano [19:47]

Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is that even though you're— the work that you do, you work as an independent artist. What I'm hearing is you're also just doing a lot of collaborations with just the world and with what's in front of you. And you use the word dance. Which I enjoy.

And yeah, I think that's just like very beautifully put, just the way that you're— that you embody not just what you're creating, but you embody like the moments and then you sort of document that in some way. Yeah, I really, I really like that. And I also, I've noticed that through your work, like outside of the, artifacts that you're creating, you're also very keen on like wisdom and looking at figures from the past that they just have wisdom to share with us.

So looking through your Instagram feed, I noticed that you're like a running theme in the type of content that you post is that you're always sharing words of wisdom from people of the past.

So could you talk a little bit about those, maybe some of those people, and what draws you to the perfect quotes or the perfect— I know, I know when you, when you mention these figures, you don't categorize them or you don't label them for what their titles were, but you refer to them as humans. And yeah, that's just very interesting how you almost like strip them of that external identity and you view them for what they are and for what we also are ourselves.

And that is just human. So could you— Talk a little bit about that.

John Hatherly [21:54]

Yeah, man, you're gonna make me cry just thinking about this. I think you did a pretty good job summing it up. So a lot of that stuff is actually me kind of just thinking about my days and interacting with my day as well. Most of the time I'll post them the day of. I have like a little posting app that will allow me to like post in the future when I need to and that kind of world and schedule that stuff.

But a lot of the quote stuff, I'll just kind of execute it. I have a little system set up that I can do it so quickly. It only takes a couple of minutes and it's usually something that like, I'm like, okay, I just kind of greet the day with this idea, and it's more of like a ritual for me as part of my practice of grounding myself back to the future.

I mean, grounding myself back to the past, but also just kind of thinking about where I'm at. And, it can be anything from having a weird interaction with someone and thinking about something that would help me personally, and then I'm like, okay, well, maybe this is something someone else would need too. Or just to— I need to find inspiration for an idea, and this is an idea that I have, and then I'm going to like Go research it. And I stumbled across something.

I'm like, oh, this was really interesting. This is gonna be what I talk about today. And then for sure, this idea of stripping titles. I don't like titles. Titles aren't good for creativity. And so the more that we can strip the layers and the masks away from people, I think the better, 'cause we all are all exactly the same little kids just struggling to find the same world.

Christian Solorzano [23:23]

I like that. Yeah, it's hard to have a follow-up to that because I just want to, want to take that in. But so what right now, just based off everything that you've been doing, with these episodes, with these conversations that we're having, I always appreciate when there's some sort of elements, like a key takeaway or something to share with listeners that perhaps could be actionable.

So if you had— I guess the question is like, what's your— what would you say is your biggest piece of advice for perhaps, a designer or creative that's— that perhaps might be having a hard time navigating this world? Yeah, well, just curious about what you would say or even just what do you, what do you tell yourself?

John Hatherly [24:20]

For sure. I didn't, I didn't go to design school. I didn't, I didn't get to go to school on someone else's dime or any of those sorts of things. And so I would say that however you can make your life happen, make it like that and don't worry about it being some other version. I would say that that's extremely important. That it really is all jazz. We're all literally just making it up.

And to that point, and this is my advice that I try to give everybody, including myself every day, is that you should just never lose the wonder that you have for life. Yeah, it's really— we— it's so improbable that we even exist in this state that I think that we should really respect that idea. Just really never lose the wonder.

Christian Solorzano [25:06]

I like that. Yeah. And I, as I said, I definitely see that being deeply ingrained into like the fabric of everything that you do. So I'm super thankful to be able to call you my friend. And I am just excited about the work that you're going to continue to do. But I guess with that said, is there anything else that you'd want to share before we, before we end here? How could people find you?

What do you— if someone wants to get ahold of you, like what's— Yeah, for sure.

John Hatherly [25:46]

You can find me on Instagram @thisissondwork, S-O-N-D-W-E-R-K. It's also my URL is sondwork.co. I would love to see how this community keeps building and see what we can all do together.

Christian Solorzano [26:04]

Awesome. Thank you. Well, this was super fun to be talking with you today. And even though we are both in the same building, just in different rooms so I'll see you in a little bit, but talk to you soon, John. Thank you for listening, everyone.

John Hatherly [26:21]

You're welcome.