Christian Solorzano [00:06]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I am your host, Christian Solorzano. I am delighted to share the wonderful conversation that I had with John Pobojewski, a designer and partner at the Chicago-based studio Span. In this episode, we learn about John's background and education in music and the ways that it influences his approach to his graphic design practice.

From 2003 to 2019, he was a designer and later a partner at Thirst alongside Rick Valicenti, and he shares with us his experience and the lessons learned from that time. He dives deep into his belief that design is one of the many ways look at the world as a place of discovery and possibility in which designers have an opportunity to respond through their creative disciplines and values.

We also hear about the power of listening that serves as an imperative skill that allows us to create thoughtful and purpose-led solutions to problems. And if you're familiar with John's work with both Span and Thirst, it is evident that listening is at the core of John's visual strategy. This was a great conversation, and as always, I'm very glad to share it with you. Enjoy. All right, welcome, John. It is nice to be speaking with you. How are you doing today?

John Pobojewski [01:40]

I'm good, I'm really good.

Christian Solorzano [01:42]

I want to once again just say thank you for being a panelist on our AI discussion a few weeks ago. I, I've really, I mean, I've been admiring your work all the way from when you were in Thirst. And when I saw that you and Bud were launching Span, that was really exciting. And I think there is a lot of excitement from the design community as well. So I'm glad that we're getting a chance to speak.

John Pobojewski [02:07]

Awesome. Thanks for having me. I'm excited. I'm excited too. It's gonna be a great conversation.

Christian Solorzano [02:11]

So people know you, they know that you've been, that you were with Thirst for 15+ years. And you were working alongside Rick Valicenti, and today you run Span. And we'll dive a little bit more deeper into some of that in just a bit. But I want to start the first question by asking you, what is something that you wish somebody asked you? What's something about you that most people don't ask or know?

John Pobojewski [02:39]

A lot of people don't ask about my so I have a musical background, which I think a lot of people— well, I think some folks in the community are aware of, but not a lot of people understand or have ever asked me about how it influences my design background or my design approach.

And I really feel that music has, and just the sort of art of composition, has a lot of similarities and connections to creating design, and that the 2 worlds are really not that far apart, even though a lot of folks, sometimes claim that they're, even though one is really time-based, one is about— with music is really about time and emotion, whereas design is much more about, message and impact. And obviously it changes based on the medium you're working in.

But I think there's a lot of similarities and both have really— lessons from either have really informed the other in the way that I think about design and the way I think about just creating and being a creative person in general.

Christian Solorzano [03:53]

Yeah. And I was reading a little bit about you and I understand that your father was a house drummer for a band. So you grew up surrounded by music. And you started with the saxophone and then you went into percussion. So can you, can you tell us a little bit about what was playing in the house? What were some of those early musical inspirations?

John Pobojewski [04:15]

Yeah, so my father was a jazz drummer. My father was born in 1929. He passed away in 2012. And so he was 51 when I was born. So it was— he was significantly older and he kind of came up in the jazz era. And was very passionate about it. And so in the house all the time was Oscar Peterson, Ray Brown, Milt Jackson, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, all these legendary jazz musicians and composers.

And so the world of jazz felt very familiar to me in all of its— and kind of all of its ethos. And it was celebrated. And we went to— we would go to jazz clubs when I was in high school in Ann Arbor. Because I grew up in Michigan, and it was sort of a part of who we were, who we were, and our identity as a family growing up. And so music was always on. It was usually Dad's music.

Mom was more into country and folk music, still is. But Dad was a little bit more passionate about music, so his music tended to be playing. More often in the house.

Christian Solorzano [05:36]

And at around the time that perhaps, you're old enough to start to have some independence or maybe start to sort of step away further and further from the house, maybe you move out. What were some of the— what was some of the music that you were listening to that was perhaps not directly inspired by what was playing in the house?

John Pobojewski [05:57]

Oh, so I still listen to jazz today. I'm a huge fan of jazz. I was listening to Miguel Zenón is my latest favorite. He's an alto sax player that has a band that just came out with a new album that is all centered around music and sounds and expressions of Latin and South America, which is really interesting. It's a fabulous album. I saw him live in Seattle during the last AIGA convention, which was just like one of the best shows I've seen in probably 15 years.

It was amazing. The— so in addition to jazz, though, I mean, I went to— when I was— I would say that when I was in high school, I started to— I switched to percussion. That became my music instrument from saxophone, as you mentioned.

And I started to get training in classical percussion, which is incredibly varied, everything from the music of Stravinsky and classical masters that you study and you have to practice and you have to understand all the relationship to all the classical musical instruments like timpani, xylophone, marimba, all that to avant-garde music like by Lou Harrison and John Cage, which would be— that were about making sound and filling sound versus silence and understanding and thinking about the role that sound plays and how much sound is as much music is.

To, world music from other cultures and what that means and how important rhythm was to different cultures. Rhythm is often, especially in cultures in Cuba and Latin America and Nigeria and Africa, is a reflection of who— of culture, not necessarily just music. It's like, they're playing these songs at weddings, at funerals. They're sort of like, it's much more important than just something you study academically. So what's interesting is that I kind of, through the instrument of percussion, I wasn't trying this.

It ended up sort of opening my eyes up to like a wider world that existed than just, a young boy who grew up on a dirt road in Michigan, that there was like much more out there than there was, that I had even, fully understood.

So I think that, through music, that really broadened my mind and started sort of like opening up the possibilities of what it meant to be someone who was creative, that made things, that, whether that was music or whether that was design or whether that was art or whether it was just, like someone who puts together furniture, it's all related. And it's all connected and it all has this really kind of like broader view on what it means to be human. And in the world.

Christian Solorzano [09:07]

And at what point does graphic design get introduced?

John Pobojewski [09:11]

So somewhere around, so in high school as well, I started to also get very interested in art, fine art, just like the art classes that they had. And I ended up being more interested in it than my little school of— I grew up in a small town called Chelsea, which was west of Ann Arbor. And they— there I ended up being more interested in it than my little school of like, 500 kids was able to provide.

So my mom found some classes in Ann Arbor through both the University of Michigan, but also through the College for Creative Studies in Detroit, and I took just different foundation classes. And one of the classes was taught by this former student, a grad student at CCS, on graphic design fundamentals. And everything was done with marker and paper, and we're drawing things. And like most— like many boys who were 15, I was fascinated by music.

And so at my time, it was like the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Stone Temple Pilots and Pearl Jam, all this Helmet was— I was really into Helmet and all these different bands. And I was making CD covers both through this class that I was taking, but then also just on myself, just sketching design. And I started to understand that, if you're interested in art and just image making, that there was a profession for that, actually, that was called graphic design.

And so I started to learn more about what that was about, and I started to get more, exposure to like different people who were in design, and very early on. But that was the first kind of like moment, oh, I could probably do this for a living. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [11:12]

So you graduate in 2003 and in 2004 you start working at Thirst.

John Pobojewski [11:18]

I started off as a junior designer. I was right out of school. The studio at that time was— so the story of me getting hired is kind of funny. So when I graduated in 2003 from Northern, there were no jobs. It was, we were still coming back from 2001, from the impact of that tragedy and then just the recession that followed it.

And so I ended up sending out— this is back in the days where you sent— not only did you send emails, but you also made phone calls and you also wrote letters. So I wrote about 120 pieces of correspondence to different people, whether it was email, letters, phones.

And I got zero replies for jobs. Nobody was hiring. No one was even interested in hiring. Some folks were nice enough to say, hey, just let you know we're not hiring. But most people just said nothing, just like went into the vacuum. And so this went on for probably like 2 to 3 months, and I was starting to get concerned because my lease was up in college and I needed a job. I needed something. And so I started to pivot.

And just ask people if they would review my portfolio. And so I got a very different reaction after that. And I think what this does is really shows the fact of how small Chicago's design community is. People just knocking on the door looking for a job. There wasn't a big response. After this, I, once I sort of pivoted and started asking for people to review my work, I got like 36 different interviews.

With different people. And I met tons of people in the design community, Julie Simmons, Jason Fickelman, and Rick, as a matter of fact. And as we were kind of, I was making my rounds and introducing the work, I would, get critiqued on the work, get feedback on the work, and then I would go back and sort of like iterate on it and then follow up with them. If I changed a piece, I would share the new piece with them and they would give me further feedback.

And it became this really interesting dialogue. And what I didn't really realize at the time, being 22 and not very smart, was that these people all talk to each other. And so, I started to get a reputation of, the quality of my work and, just the way I presented myself and stuff like that. And so before long, people were throwing me work. And so I had a bunch of freelance assignments that I was lucky enough to meet a designer named John Wivel.

Who now is John Harrell. She practices out of Denver, and she ran a shop called Weigel USA. I worked freelance for her for probably over a year, and she really kept me going, honestly. She would just throw me work whenever she had it, and I was able to kind of like continue this hunt to try to figure out where my career was going to be landed.

And I did a couple internships at different places around, and then eventually Having met Rick probably 2 or 3 times casually, I just wrote him out of the blue and I was like, hey, just writing to see if there's any opportunities. It's— it would be great to work with you. And then he tantalizingly wrote back in a one-line email, I may have something in 3 months. R. Sent. It was like, all right, that's interesting.

So I was able to kind of like spin around and, Find my path and stall and sort of like scrape out a living for another 3 months. And then eventually I went in and he did, he did have an opening and I interviewed for it and got the job the same day and just sort of like started a wonderful 15-year career practicing alongside him. It was great.

Christian Solorzano [15:11]

And what was that interview like?

John Pobojewski [15:12]

Oh, I mean, it's very, a very typical Rick interview if you're not, if you're not, if you've ever heard of them. It was, he's very interested in the work, walked through all the work. We talked about all the projects. And, he was interested in all the things that I think most, studio owners are interested in. Can you come up with an idea? Can you visualize it? Can you talk about, your thinking through the choices that you made? Can you Can you show evidence of range?

Can you talk, can you do big things, small things, funky things, clean things, being able to show that you can, that you're expressive and adept at many different ways and styles of design. And I think it was just whether or not it clicked. And he, it was a great interview. It went really well, responded well. And it was, like that I had a job.

Christian Solorzano [16:19]

Yeah. And something that I've been interested in lately is because I've been— we had a discussion a few weeks back where we were reflecting on the entire archive of the design publication Emigre. And we actually had Rick join us and he was giving us a lot of like stories and just sharing his experiences of being a yeah. Part of the publication for so many years.

But throughout my research and going through various issues, I've been noticing that a lot of perhaps the topics and themes and issues that people were talking about, let's say 20 years ago, are still being discussed today. And they relate to new media, new technology, Things like DEI. So, and out of that conversation, I've been sort of struggling with coming up with an answer as to whether design is truly capable of solving problems or whether it just creates more problems.

And I know that Span, much of your work is always very rooted in a larger vision, a larger purpose. There's a lot of community engagement and just work that goes beyond just the visual. So what are, what are your overall sentiments around the idea of design truly being capable of making a positive change? Do you, do you think that is possible, or do you think that's some sort of myth that we tell ourselves? As graphic designers?

John Pobojewski [18:05]

Oh, I think it's definitely possible, but I also think that the amount of change that design can make is oftentimes not up to the designer. So sometimes it's not an assignment you get to influence because so much of our work is done for organizations, and those organizations tend to— well, they're obviously independently managed, right? You can't— you do a brand expression for a business and they talk about how they're going to be the great, the best business ever. They're going to do wonderful things for people.

And you put all your energy into that and it comes out the next week that the CEO has been embezzling from the organization, that the organization's defunct and bankrupt, and all the work goes away. I mean, like that. Happens all the time. And I think one of the things that design has the capability for doing is visualizing potential, coming up with potential futures that are sort of sometimes unseen by different people.

And I think that's one of design's great gifts, is being able to visualize the potential of what something can be. Whether that's like a movement, visualizing the idea of how an idea can spark, a revolution, a new set of ideas, and, social change.

Or it can be as simple as like providing somebody who's worked their entire life to try to be able to open up a business so that they can have their own control over their own life and that you're helping them take that little, that dream and make it reality. Those are all really powerful things. They're just different scales. And I think that design also has the potential to be an incredible agent for disaster.

I mean, we've seen that, one of the most successful, or I shouldn't say successful, I should say one of the most recognizable brands of all time was the swastika. Based on Nazi Germany, which, came to represent the most horrible, one of the most horrible acts of mankind. And so, every design has incredible potential for both sides. And I think it's really up to the individual designer to figure out how their contribution through the work they're doing is moving the work in one way or the other.

That's one of the reasons why we're so interested in talking to larger people and getting more stakeholders and opening up the conversation to a larger community, and even talking about and participating in, giving back some of our profits and proceeds to different charities and nonprofits, helping to do volunteerism work, just greater understanding the role of what a design studio is, and even just take both those words out, just a business is in, 2023 and 2024.

I think there's a greater responsibility now to do more than there was, gosh, even 5 years ago. It's a different— I don't think it's particularly special. It's just like what needs to be done.

Christian Solorzano [21:32]

Yeah. And how do you, how do you, how does Span or you see, for example, businesses or your clients respond to perhaps a purpose-driven ethos or a value-driven process? Because I know that for one of my— for me, one of my biggest criticisms about the design industry as a whole sometimes is that sometimes we will talk about very ambitious altruistic ideas of change, making the world a better place and so forth.

But it's very, from my experience, sometimes it's very difficult to get that buy-in from your stakeholders, from the people that you're working with. So what I find interesting about the work that you do, the work that Span does, is that what all of you do appears to be at the intersection of so many different things. Like it's not just graphic design. It's graphic design, but it's also culture and it's also technology and it's also bigger ideas.

And I, and we had Nick Adam on our show last year and he was talking a lot about just being value-driven and co-designing and sort of the graphic designer, not just as someone that executes or that creates, but someone that also co-facilitates. So I wanna hear a little bit from your perspective. How do you, how do you, how do you engage in those relationships where there's so much on the table? And as a graphic designer, you're sort of in charge of leading X parts.

John Pobojewski [23:15]

There's one of, I think, the greatest detriments to the design profession that's ever existed is this idea of the design rock star. Somebody who has a big fancy name, which you pay a lot of money to, who comes in and waves a magic wand, and then poof, the design, the magical solution is given, and they're dubbed a genius, and you pay them a bunch of money and they go away. And there's like, our whole— there's a huge swath of history.

That's dedicated to folks in those roles. Paul Rand comes to mind, right? I love Paul Rand's work, studied his work. I think he's one of the great masters of design. But at the same token, they become a figurehead as and of themselves, and it becomes all about facilitating a process so that they can work their magic or be a genius and do their thing. That's just so antipathetic to how we practice.

I think one of the things that we do we work really hard on is just listening to everybody. We would love to have a stakeholder group that has 10, 20 people in it. We've excelled at those types of projects. And I think the reason that we— the reason why those projects are so important and those processes are so important is because historically it's been about just getting the designer the money and let them do their thing, and it's going to be great.

But that is not equitable. It's not an equitable process for how great design can be met. The more voices you have at the table, the more they're heard, the more they're understood, the more different ideas can come into the mix, and the more the design can kind of come to life in a way that was sometimes unexpected or sort of undirected. The important thing as a designer then is that you don't end up becoming this you become, Nick's word was, co-facilitate.

And I've, been in, we've practiced together and done projects together. That's exactly how he practices. I usually see myself as being a bit of a curator where feedback comes in and you have to kind of understand what that feedback means. Because sometimes when you have a lot of people, you're going to get contradictory feedback. It's just human nature. 20 people in a room, not all 20 of them are going to have the same vision.

They're going to have different aspects of the vision, and sometimes one aspect will contradict the other. You have to weight them and figure out which one is sort of like more important to the overall drive. But the important— most important aspect of this practice in terms of this particular, dimension of it is something that Rick taught me, actually, which is the statement that people support what they help create. If people are along for the process of creating something, then they will embrace it and engage it.

And it's sort of the secret to success as a designer. If you just come in and sort of say, I think it should be this, almost instinctually, people will bristle at that. Or they'll sort of say, I don't understand where this is coming from. It's foreign. And it's not the kind of scenario in which we found a lot of success. We found success through iteration. We throw out a lot of different ideas. Those ideas are half-baked at best.

Those ideas get critiqued and criticized and talked about and discussed, and some have real potential, and some end up sort of like, getting pushed to the cutting room floor. But without that process, without that idea of how, a community of stakeholders can kind of, can Contribute to the work, the work just ends up being false. It just ends up being, not a true representation of what it needs to be.

Do you run into situations where you have people that are there that shouldn't be in the meeting? Absolutely. That happens all the time. But that's just sort of like, the cost of doing business. When you're, when you're dealing with this, you just have to understand those kind of scenarios and how to work around them.

Christian Solorzano [27:33]

Yeah. So in addition to, let's say, the process of design, of the practice that all of you are in. How does— how do the aesthetics and the visual language— what role does that play into the co-facilitating, into the collaboration?

John Pobojewski [27:57]

Do you—

Christian Solorzano [27:57]

Because I mean, every Span project that I always see released Feels like there's a very consistent level of craft. And that's something that I just always really appreciate. And it's very— and it's always very obvious when it's like a Span-produced project because the typography, there's attention to detail to the type.

And everything always feels very unexpected. And there's even though it's, it feels familiar, like a familiar Span project. It still feels unexpected and new and different. So how does, what role does craft play into the process of, let's say, co-designing or your work in general?

John Pobojewski [28:45]

Yeah, so craft is everything for us. You have 3 principals, 3 partners who are each one trained on, a discipline of creating design that was led by, all of the history of design that came before us. And so we're real conscious of understanding that, design is the center of what Span will always do. We're always going to be a design studio.

There will always be attention to typography and to image and to craftsmanship and to how things are put together and to the presentation of those materials, because that's really at the core of who we are. What we love to do is use the visual as a representation of strategy.

So rather than having strategy be informed solely by language, which is— or, the idea of identifying language first before visual form gets hung on, we sometimes use the visual as an opportunity to inform and encouraged to present the strategy. If we typeset this— a real basic example— if we typeset this name in this font, what does it say? What does it mean? What does it represent to this particular organization? How is it a reflection of them?

If we take this idea of creating a composition of a page spread that has 3 large words on it, what can those words mean? What can they represent? How can they sort of like come forth and sort of manifest into the, into the overall strategy. It's sort of, we certainly engage in a lot of projects where strategy comes first, but oftentimes, just as often as not, we're sort of engaged where the design and the strategy are happening simultaneously, and they're being informed by one another.

And that's just, I guess, the way we like to work. Because otherwise we end up finding that it becomes too much of an assembly line process where the design, the package, the strategy is done and it gets handed off, and then that gets packaged, and then it gets handed off, and then that gets implemented by a team that's gonna do the digital and do the rollout and all that.

And one of the reasons we started Span, this idea of expanding the boundaries of what communication design is and can be is that we want to be able to make sure that design is at the center of all these things. And craft is certainly a huge part of that. It's something that we really value as much as possible.

Christian Solorzano [31:26]

So on the topic of craft, I forgot, maybe it was Nick that mentioned this, but I— or actually, no, it's something that I've seen on Span's website is that there's client work, but then there's also a lot of self-initiated projects. And I always have the impression that those 2 different realms of engagements are in constant communication with one another, where something that's self-initiated directly might influence something that perhaps you're doing for a client and vice versa.

So how, I mean, I know that it's really important, but like for you specifically, how important is it to have those personal avenues of exploration and play? And how do you, how do you manage to find time for that in addition to the other work?

John Pobojewski [32:26]

Yeah. So the Secret of Thirst was all about the play work is what Rick called it. These research projects that he would do that were sort of driven by— sometimes they were driven by technology, sometimes they were driven by Rick's whim. I'm sure he would say that as much as they were just sort of like, what's in Ricky's mind today?

And they would sort of— those things would drive the outcome of the projects and sort of out of— they started with publications that he did, Four Letter Words series. They turned into experiments with automation and technology, which was Intelligent Design. And then later that pivoted, influenced Wright's book catalog system, cataloging system that we designed that automated InDesign. And there was on and on and on all the way through. And so I was raised in that. I was, 15 years of that sort of cycle.

And that I have found is really the secret to running a really great studio, is that there needs to be an avenue for discovery. Because if all you're doing all day long, all the time, is just client work, you tend to find yourself wanting to get it done faster and faster and cheaper and all of that, because, business goals, but then also just because of challenges. You want to be challenged.

So the research work exists because— and I'm very passionate about this— like, a design studio should imagine brighter and better futures for both the profession, but then also, just through their own work. So if we're tasked with doing more than just solving client problems, quote unquote, to use your words about solving problems. Maybe what else could Span do? What else could a design studio do that could have a greater impact? Could it influence and create culture? Could it, create works of art?

Could it collaborate with groups that it has no business collaborating? Like a dance company. And so this was kind of— these were kind of some of the, experiments that we've been put forth. And I think the secret to actually making them happen is just that they're real projects. They have budgets. I mean, the budgets are, set by the partners. They have direction. They have timelines where they need to be completed. They get pushed all the time.

Some crash and burn, meaning that they don't actually see the light of day. But there's always this impetus to explore and discover and do something. And on the other side of the table, what we usually center a lot of the experiments and research projects around are the personal interests of the team. So, whether it's, imagining a future where we're all isolated and, Zach in our studio is really passionate and interested in doing a lot of 3D work. It's like, all right, let's invent this project.

That sort of like, takes the best of those worlds and puts them together. We did Typecast our first year, like within the first month right before COVID hit. And it was basically like this, potluck, design potluck where everybody got to do something in the studio that contributed to that overall corpus of that piece, which was great. I was really proud of that and that people have their opportunity to see their work reflected in a larger piece that represents the whole studio.

So it serves— it just has so many benefits that makes it so much worth the investment, because it is an investment. You're basically preventing client work from happening so that you can get this work done. It's not like we're all staying up until midnight and 1 AM to get this stuff done. That's not— we don't run that kind of shop.

So, it is eating into the bottom line, quote unquote, but it's an investment in, I think, not only ourselves individually, but also just like the possibilities of what a graphic design firm can be. So that someone, we're all trying to do something more than just, set type all day long. We're trying to, have an imagination of what graphic design's influence could be outside of just the little box that we're all a part of right now. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [37:04]

And you spoke a little bit about Paul Rand and looking at him as one of the masters of design. Historically, are there any moments in design or perhaps any designers that you feel like you're largely inspired by? Or perhaps maybe a better question is there anyone that— is there any one project that you look to that you're like, man, I wish I could have done that?

John Pobojewski [37:35]

Yeah, I don't see projects that way. I think as you— maybe this is just my age, but as I grow, as I get more and more years in this profession, I find myself being more interested in people rather than projects. Who has done— who has lived a life in design that's really impressive? And I mean, I have my own—

Fan club, of course, like all of us do. I mean, just right off the bat, you can, you can just see the pictures coming out from that Paula Scher show out in Germany and just be like, Jesus, that's an incredible career. To just see how varied it's been, how incredible contributions she's done. But then also to know that Paula has been a huge influence in attracting all of the younger partners to Pentagram, like Emily Oberlin and Natasha Gemm.

And she's played a huge part in actually growing that second generation. So you start to realize that it's about the work, but it's also about people and the contribution that you can give to other people in the profession as much as it is about doing cool projects. And then, another person, individual who I'm really inspired by is László Moholy-Nagy, who sort of proved the point that you don't always— you don't necessarily have to do one thing all the time.

So he was so creative and so impactful and left behind a generation of young talent that he helped foster that I think is also a testament to, why we're doing this, why we run a dinosaur of a business model like a design agency, is that we're trying to not only like create really interesting work, but we're also trying to like mentor talent and help them grow into being the next generation of design leaders that can do the same thing again and just keep the cycle going, hopefully.

Christian Solorzano [39:53]

So I graduated from college in 2016. So I started studying design in 2012 or like 2011. So I still feel like at times, like relatively new to the industry, but I also, I'm now at a point where I see like a new generation of designers graduating from college and sort of like seeing the world that they're coming into in regards to like new technology, new expectations.

I think, and from my vantage point, graphic designs, the expectation of graphic design has significantly shifted where I think people are expecting more of the companies that they're supporting, whether it's brands or, whatever. I mean, we see it with Twitter, Recently changing their logo. Even non-designers are like talking about the logo, and I just feel like the internet has just significantly— continues to significantly elevate or just make graphic design more of a household term.

So I really appreciate you mentioning the fact that that's a big part of your approach to design is that you're thinking about the longevity, the sustainability of what it is today and what impact that'll have long after, we're all gone.

John Pobojewski [41:21]

Yes, hopefully the profession continues and it actually thrives and doesn't get— one of the risks of the, Hollywoodization of graphic design is that the more press it gets, it's not about the profession doesn't get broader, it gets narrower. So now it's all about this X, which is just, I think, a letter from a display typeface.

As I recall, someone has already figured that out. I think sometimes I'm much more interested in making graphic design broader and more varied. And representing different areas and being able to participate in different aspects of society than I've seen sometimes in the sort of popular culture and press where it's like, no, it's about brands. Brands are really important. They're a dynamic part of what a graphic design studio can do, but they're not everything.

There's from publications, from books, from where you're creating literally a resource that's gonna be studied for generations, to exhibitions where you can change people's point of view about a certain subject, to, interactive experiences, all those things that it can get broader and broader. But people tend to write, right, about the marks, the logos. So yeah, it's interesting. You should read— did you see Brian Collins' outcome on the X logo?

Christian Solorzano [42:56]

I don't think— I've read so much, I don't even know what I've read.

John Pobojewski [43:00]

Yeah. His take is really— he thinks the whole thing's a big scam, but he's got something else in the works coming. It's a big skunkworks thing. I think that's interesting.

Christian Solorzano [43:09]

I mean, possibly it wouldn't be unexpected.

So one of the questions that I always like to ask our guests is a little bit maybe unrelated to graphic design, but given that, just given that there's so much change happening today in the world, and sometimes it could be, it could be very easy to perhaps get a little bit pessimistic or just a little bit down about whether it's climate change or just the state of the world. On a lighter note, how does— where does John draw hope from? What gives you hope?

And sort of with what enthusiasm do you come into your practice with?

John Pobojewski [43:53]

Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm a parent, so I don't have a choice. I have to be hopeful for the future because, my daughter's stepping into it. But in all honesty, I think that, the level— for sure, for certain, there are real problems that we have in front of us. As a profession, the DEI problem is huge. The equity problems are tremendous. As a society, I mean, certainly that's a huge issue as well. Then we also tack on to it the idea of, a changing climate.

And adapting to that changing climate, mitigating the loss that we can have. There's huge problems that are in front of us. But I think you can face those problems in a way in which you ask yourself, how can I keep on living? How can I continue in a future where it's as bleak as this?

Or you can face it in saying, I only have 80 years on this planet, let's say, what can I do with my 80 that I can make a contribution that at least feels somewhat like I've done something that's positive, that creates real change? And I think that idea of seeing your role on this planet as being an opportunity to do something that contributes to the greater good would be what keeps me getting up in the morning.

I think that ability to do something, and sometimes the greater good changes, right? Maybe it's just a small thing, like even just I'm going to make this digital ad really beautiful because I know it's going to be seen by 10,000 people in the next month.

Okay, maybe that's worth spending an extra hour or 2 on just so that when you see that or someone sees that and encounters it, it's a piece of thoughtful craft that has sort of passed them by as opposed to somewhere, yet another example of where someone could give a shit. I think it's about trying to make the most of what you have. And contribute in which ways you can. You're always going to be reaching for change. You're always going to be stretching.

You're always going to be broadening yourself. But I think there's a lot of optimism that can come out of just saying, what can I do today? If I look back and think through, the kind of, big decisions or moments in my life, I think there's always been these, this, idea that it's always possible. Even thinking back to my— the start of my design career when I went to school and I was going to schools and I wanted to get a degree in both design and music.

I can't tell you how many places I called or visited and they were like, there's no way you're gonna be able to do both of these. It's just time. They're like, you've gotta be in 4 ensemble, like 6 ensembles, and the ensemble rehearsals are 2 hours a day. And then you've got studio classes, and studio classes are 2 hours a day. It's just math. It's not going to work out.

And so I finally found a school where the counselor was— the guidance counselor who sorts out what classes you're supposed to take was like, well, you can do this. It's just going to take you 6 years because you're going to have to— and you're probably going to have to end up taking color when you're a junior or something rudimentary later on. And so I was like, okay, cool, that sounds good. And it was just the idea of being open to the possibility that it can happen.

It just maybe it can't happen exactly in the way that you expect it to or you imagine it can, as long as you just kind of continue to show up every day, make it happen. And I think that kind of relentless idea that something is always possible, that stubbornness that things are possible is kind of what has made me excited to be in the role that I'm in, where, you're at the front of a project, you're helping clients imagine what the possibility could be.

You're trying to motivate a studio of really talented people to kind of come together around an idea. That kind of excitement for possibility is like everything, because that's what is the fuel for keeping an idea alive, because ideas just die like that.

You can just— Rick used to be the— I used to call him the idea assassin because he would be able to, if there was a concept he really didn't like, he was just like a ruthless ninja about being able to— or he was just ruthless.

I should say, about knowing the exact words to say to kill that concept. I mean, to the point of where, he would choose words that he had heard the client describe about, somebody in their life that they really disliked. He would choose words that aligned with that person. So if, someone made fun of somebody for being bald or something like that, he'd, call a concept, barren or, just, really stark, or it seems really round and kind of open.

And it was just I would just sit there like, I can't believe what you're doing right now. But it worked. He was very good at that.

Christian Solorzano [49:33]

Yeah, I like that. I've had a few conversations with Rick over the past 2 years or so. And yeah, I'm always just amazed by how intuitive he seems and just how he just thinks so creatively, like on the spot. And it's— and nothing ever feels, in my opinion, like rehearsed.

John Pobojewski [49:53]

No, he's very authentic. I mean, that was that was definitely a big ethos of the studio as well, was that we, we've carried forward as Span is that it's not about— you're not about putting on a show. You're not about, just sort of like presenting an idea. It's about listening. You've got to understand what it is you're doing.

The term he used to— the phrase he used to use is like aligning it with the subject matter, making sure that the concept is really focused on the world in which this idea is coming to life, the people that are at the table and all of that. So now I think, as Span, we've kind of just expanded upon that. There's just more people at the table. There's more ideas.

We're trying to make that lens as wide as possible so that, the work that we're creating is really trying to be in response to that. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [50:48]

So when you started when you started working at Thirst, you were in your early 20s, right?

John Pobojewski [50:53]

23. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [50:55]

Okay. And then how long did it take you until you perhaps started to maybe feel a little bit more like how long did it take you to find your voice or perhaps like your style or your approach?

Because I know that that's something that, I mean, for me, when I started working, it took me some time to like even figure out what it is that I like or what I don't like, or even what it is that I don't know how to do or know how to do.

So what advice do you have for someone that maybe is maybe struggling with just finding out what their approach is, what their style is, especially, I mean, I think the perhaps the luxury of working at a place like Thirst is that you're working with someone that's really creative, but in some instances, there's people that are perhaps working in places that are not as creative or that perhaps have a little bit more guardrails.

So yeah, like what advice do you have for someone to just have them find their voice, their vocabulary, their language?

John Pobojewski [51:56]

I would say to avoid style, to avoid specialization as much as you can to be a sponge and start to kind of like take in different experiences. And if you're in a job where you can't get any creative experiences, you should probably just start looking for another job, like try to find an opportunity to kind of broaden what your view of design is. Because the great truth of it is that we are all creative people. We're creators.

And our job is to not do the smallest thing for the rest of our life.

It's to be a creator in the grandest sense, whether that's, finding yourself an opportunity to plant a garden and make it grow, or finding an opportunity to paint and turn that into a profession, or finding it, this one woman in my studio, Valeria, she has— I don't know much that Valeria does not do, to be honest with you. She does like metalsmithing, printmaking. She does all these different types of art and design work. She's done fashion work.

She's constantly doing different things and exploring different avenues, and that is such a rich gift that she's been given. And it's awesome to see because it totally influences her professional work. I can just say, throwing her under the bus here without her being here, that, she it broadens her way of seeing, when she hops into an interactive project, or whether she's editing a video project, or whether she's doing a logo, or whether she's doing a stationery. It doesn't matter.

That idea of variation, craft, focus, iteration, all those ideas, they all kind of come and sort of like play a part into who she is and are making her a better designer. It's making her who she is.

And so at first it was a very similar experience for me where like there wasn't like we didn't have a digital guy and we didn't have like a guy who only did apps and we didn't have— it's very strange, like design education today, I think, when I see this, you go to this school because you want to learn how to do wireframing. And I'm like, I just don't understand what that means.

I think that there's a— there's the idea that design is a way of seeing the world and then being able to kind of understand how you can take challenge and kind of give it expression and order and form is what we're tasked to do. And whether that's, through click states, through, some sort of cart path to check out in a kind of either a cool way or at least a familiar way that feels natural and intuitive.

To, I'm doing a poster that is for, protesting, some oil company in response to climate change. Those are— it's, for me, it's the same gig. It's just different ways of viewing through the lens of design. And so I would encourage young designers to be thinking about, what are more experiences that you can have?

And if your current job is only is small and only gives you one expression, can you get faster at it so that you have more opportunity during the day to do other things as well? Or is there an opportunity for you to go beyond your assignment and ask and inquire with different people to see how, maybe within the organization, design can play a larger role? I think it was Paula Scherer who said that designers aren't like, we're the freaks.

We're the ones who see the world creatively and see the world differently. Everyone else doesn't see that way. So it's up to us to teach others that way of looking at the world is possible. And so sometimes we have to kind of broaden and go beyond ourselves to being able to kind of bridge gaps. And when you put yourself out there, sometimes you get rejected. So it's important to just sort of be ready for that.

But, the idea that you can, you can talk to people, you can ask your boss like, hey, I noticed we're getting a lot of, comments from this one department. Can I go talk to them and just understand a little bit more what their viewpoints coming from? I think that allows you to start thinking more about design as a As a life and not just like a task that you're doing and only trying to complete for one specific type of style.

It's more about a viewpoint and a way of sort of approaching the world.

Christian Solorzano [57:01]

Yeah, I agree. So we're almost at time, but I have some, maybe they're, maybe we call them rapid-fire questions. And the first one is a little bit to what you were just speaking about, but if you could sit with younger John, what piece of advice would you tell him? Or what would you want to talk about?

John Pobojewski [57:22]

Stop worrying so much.

Christian Solorzano [57:24]

Stop worrying.

John Pobojewski [57:25]

That's probably, that's probably what I'd tell him. Yeah. Yeah. Stop worrying so much. I think when you're young, you are unsure and that makes you worry and anxious and be kind of introverted as a result. But there is confidence in not knowing. So just being able to say like, I don't know, but I'll find the answer, is powerful.

Christian Solorzano [57:50]

And for you as a, as someone that runs a studio, when you do have, let's say, that younger John in the office or that younger person, and let's say they're worrying about something, as a, as a, as a leader, how do you dampen someone's worries?

John Pobojewski [58:08]

So you've got to create an environment where it's acceptable to fail. So not every idea works, and that's okay. We're all racing against the clock. That's like the budget and the timeline clock, the deadline clock that every other designer practicing races against. But we have to be able to try things and have them not work, and that's okay. And have that be totally acceptable. And in terms of real human things, like human emotions, you end up practicing being a mind reader.

Trying to recognize when somebody seems off or things seem odd and trying to be sort of attuned to that because those moments are real and everybody in the studio is a human first, and, everything else second. And so they bring all of their humanness into the studio, whether it's their lack of confidence or their uncertainty or their shyness or their, introvertedness or their sort of like emotionalness. Everybody's different. Everyone's got their own sort of, perspective.

And so I think, as a Does, as a leader, period, design doesn't even matter in this equation. Like you just have to understand that everybody's, showing up and we're all trying to kind of like unite around one vision. And so not everybody is gonna show up every day in the same exact way. You can't treat them like they're army drones. They're people? And so you have to kind of be attuned to all that.

Christian Solorzano [59:48]

Question number 2, you can only use one typeface for the rest of your life. What is that one typeface?

John Pobojewski [59:54]

The one, the one typeface argument. Okay. So it would probably be Mark OT right now. It's sort of like a white frame in a gallery is how I would describe it. So I can, we can do pretty much anything with it and it will, it'll work okay. But I would be very angry. If you, if you made me be, if you'd made me play the Massimo Vignelli card. I'll just say that.

Christian Solorzano [60:24]

Third question. If so, you, so you have background in music, background in design. If you had to pick something else, a different profession, what is something that you would also be interested in doing?

John Pobojewski [60:36]

Architecture. Yeah, I work with a lot of architects and a lot of urban planners and a lot of landscape designers, and I think it's fascinating what they do, how they organize space, how they make, how they bring space to life. It's amazing.

Christian Solorzano [60:49]

And then final question, if you could resurrect Laszlo Moholy-Nagy and you could ask him any question you want or have a conversation with him about any topic, what would it be?

John Pobojewski [61:00]

I mean, I would ask him how he was able to keep going. I mean, there's so much adversity in his life. And, from— I don't know his life intimately well, but I know that he was ostracized for a while and relocated to Chicago and as a result of Nazi Germany and didn't speak the language.

There were tons of barriers that he went through, and he was able to deliver this incredibly rich corpus of work that was incredibly vibrant, from photography to painting to but just graphic design. And all the way up until the end, it's like that energy to keep that going all of that time and to kind of tirelessly sort of be thinking of that. How was he able to do it? How was he able to just kind of, despite the adversity, find all of those things?

Because, I mean, what a privileged life you and I have, right? I mean, really. I mean, at the end of the day, and like he was able to do far more of a contribution and with a hell of a lot greater odds on his back than you and I have.

Christian Solorzano [62:20]

For the club, he's one of our inspirations, so we're always referring to his, to his body of work as a reference.

John Pobojewski [62:28]

Yeah, I used to, I used to call him Thirst's Messiah. That's how I used to refer to him. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [62:33]

Yeah. Well, this was great. I sincerely loved our conversation. So thank you so much for taking the time. And if anyone wants to follow up or get ahold of you, you're very involved in the community. You give a lot back. But how could people find you and what's the best way for someone to get in touch?

John Pobojewski [62:55]

Absolutely. So Instagram is really good for me. And then also, there's a, an email address on the website that they can hit up anytime.

Christian Solorzano [63:03]

And are there any new projects or anything coming up or anything you want to, you want to promote or announce?

John Pobojewski [63:09]

There absolutely is, and I'm not going to announce any of them right now. Follow us on Instagram for sure. That's where our, that's the, where we're most active right now. And we certainly will let you know when they're coming up.

Christian Solorzano [63:23]

Excitement.

John Pobojewski [63:25]

All right.

Christian Solorzano [63:25]

Well, once again, thank you so much and yeah, I look forward to Absolutely, Christian.

John Pobojewski [63:31]

Thanks so much for what you're doing for the community. I really appreciate it.

Christian Solorzano [63:35]

What a great conversation that was. Thank you so much for sticking till the end. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed the conversation with John. If you don't know yet, the Chicago Graphic Design Club is in the middle of launching a print publication, and we have an open call for submissions. To learn more, visit our website or follow us on Instagram. Just look up ChicagoGraphicDesign.club. Thank you.

John Pobojewski [64:06]

Thank you.