Christian Solorzano [00:00]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a show by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I am your host, Christian Solorzano. My guest today is Liam Guiritan, a designer who grew up being told that there were only 2 career paths worth taking and chose neither. Together, we will explore how curiosity became his education, how code became his medium, and how a childhood of taking things apart and never putting them back together turned out to be exactly the right training for a design practice built on experimentation.

We also get into what craft means when your tool is a terminal window, why American design tends to underestimate its audience, and why in an era of infinite digital surfaces, print is the thing giving Liam the most hope. As always, if you enjoy conversations like these, we appreciate your support when you leave us a rating wherever you listen. Enjoy the conversation, and thank you for what's up, Liam?

Liam Guiritan [00:55]

Hello.

Christian Solorzano [00:56]

How are you doing?

Liam Guiritan [00:57]

I'm doing good.

Christian Solorzano [00:58]

So we are recording this on Saturday, April 4th, and it's rainy. We're both in Oak Park. This is your third time— well, your second time in the studio, third time that we've hung out in the last— I think a month. Yeah, you came to my house, I think it was like 3 weeks ago, and then you came to the studio last week, and now you're back. So you must, you must— we get along. So that's a good sign. How was your Saturday?

Liam Guiritan [01:30]

Not bad. Pretty slow, I would say.

Christian Solorzano [01:34]

What does Liam do on— what's your like Saturday morning routine?

Liam Guiritan [01:39]

I usually sleep in a little bit just because I don't get that chance to sleep in when I work throughout the week. During the week, I'm usually up at 4 AM. But Saturdays, I usually try to sleep in until like 7, 8, because I've really— because really there's no reason for me to be up at 4 AM on a Saturday.

Christian Solorzano [02:01]

Are you the kind of person that wakes up without an alarm, or do you require an alarm?

Liam Guiritan [02:05]

I need an alarm. Yeah, I need an alarm because otherwise I think sometimes I can let my body wake me up. For example, if I'm staying at like a friend's place, usually I don't necessarily need an alarm, but for me just to prevent me from like oversleeping, I need one.

Christian Solorzano [02:18]

Yeah. And is your phone your alarm?

Liam Guiritan [02:20]

My phone is my alarm. And I've— this actually happened yesterday, but I usually try to keep it on like arm's reach away and usually like the other side of the room. Because what happened was yesterday for work, I almost missed my train because my phone was right next to me. And I've noticed that if my phone is right next to me, I'm more likely to this mindlessly snooze it.

Whereas if it's like on the other side of the room, like I have— my body has to get up to turn off the alarm. And are you—

Christian Solorzano [02:50]

What kind of alarm sound person are you? Do you like a soothing sound or do you like the ship is sinking and we're all gonna die?

Liam Guiritan [02:58]

I think I had the default iPhone one, so I think that's like the one that's like, hey, get up. I think I did mess around with like changing it where it was like the more Calming one, but I kind of like the one where, to your point, the ship is sinking.

Christian Solorzano [03:14]

Yeah, but that's usually the one that if I, if I, for example, if I, if I have to catch a flight or something, if there's something that has a hard deadline, I will default to the crazy scary sinking sound. Yeah, I remember a long time ago I had an Android phone and I had an application that required me to do some math, like a math equation, in order to silence the alarm.

Liam Guiritan [03:40]

What equations would it give you? Would it be like simple equations or would you have to like—

Christian Solorzano [03:45]

It was, I mean, it was, it was, to me it was complicated because I'm not very good at math. So I'm sure to other people it was like quite simple math, but like for me it took a lot out of me. Because we had to sometimes, get a piece of paper or just like—

Liam Guiritan [04:00]

I'm just imagining it's like your alarm goes off and then you have to mind it and you have to like solve, I don't know, like the quadratic formula or find like the angle of a triangle at like 5 AM, for example. So you and I have crossed paths many times.

Christian Solorzano [04:13]

We've been crossing paths through the Chicago Graphic Design Club, and then also you've been— you've participated in our publication Faculty, and you're going to be in the upcoming issue number 3. And one of the things that I really like about you is that you're always experimenting with new technology, and that new technology tends to be code, which to me I find really fascinating because I think graphic design, when we learn it, we usually think of it as just this stuff that you do with Adobe software.

And I know that you mentioned in the past that you took a playgramming class at DePaul. So you're an alum of DePaul. You were class of 2023, '22?

Liam Guiritan [04:53]

I always— this is always a story when people ask me. So I'm technically class of 2023 because I started at DePaul 2019, but I had to stay 2 quarters just to finish up some requirements, so I walked in 2024.

Christian Solorzano [05:09]

Okay, and I'm also a DePaul alum. I graduated in 2016, so we're both Blue Demons. How do you feel? What does it feel like to be a Blue Demon?

Liam Guiritan [05:20]

I mean, I don't—

Christian Solorzano [05:22]

What does it mean to you?

Liam Guiritan [05:23]

I don't really think much about it these days.

I think like the first year, I think the first year out of— or I shouldn't say the first year, but like the 3 months after I finished, I was like, oh, I wanted to stay connected to DePaul, but I think more recently I'm like ready to close that chapter of my life because I don't, I don't know, I don't know what it is, but I just think I don't want to dwell too much on the fact that I went to DePaul.

Christian Solorzano [05:49]

Okay, yeah, but I know that you mentioned that at some point something you'd be interested in doing is Teaching, yes. So you never know. Maybe you'll find yourself like maybe teaching at the Paul something.

Liam Guiritan [06:02]

Maybe, yeah.

Christian Solorzano [06:03]

I always because I went to the Paul and I also teach at the Paul. I feel as if I'm the student that never left town and they still kind of hang around the parking lot and they and on occasion they'll buy like cigarettes for the students and. Yeah, I get a little self-conscious sometimes about the fact that I'm still in the DePaul orbit.

But I like— I mean, it's not that I like DePaul, I just enjoy teaching, and teaching at DePaul was like a pretty seamless point of entry.

Liam Guiritan [06:38]

I mean, I think it also helps too that you have— that you both want— like, that you're teaching at DePaul while you were also a student, because I feel like you would have that insight. Or like that DePaul perspective.

Christian Solorzano [06:48]

There's one class that I'm teaching and I'm teaching in the classroom that I used to be a student at, which is kind of funny.

Liam Guiritan [06:56]

Is it in the Daley Building?

Christian Solorzano [06:57]

It's in the, yeah, 14 East Jackson.

Liam Guiritan [06:59]

The 5th floor?

Christian Solorzano [07:00]

5th floor.

Liam Guiritan [07:01]

Always.

Christian Solorzano [07:01]

506 or something.

Liam Guiritan [07:03]

Always, yeah, 506.

Christian Solorzano [07:05]

I used to be a student. I used to sit over there and now I'm sitting over here. So it's kind of—

Liam Guiritan [07:08]

Were you a student that sat in the back of the class or the front of the class?

Christian Solorzano [07:11]

I used to sit in the front middle part of the class. Yeah. I used to always ask questions, and I was also, even if I didn't have a question, I would just like to, I always liked talking, and yeah, and I was that student that would always raise their hand, and yeah, I'm sure people probably found it a little annoying because—

Liam Guiritan [07:32]

No, I know, I feel you. Yeah, because even at night classes, I'd still be, I'd still sit in the front of class.

I think my preference was closer, yeah, probably like you, the front center, or usually like the front Left closer to the door because it was like if I had to use the bathroom, I would feel weird having to get up in the middle, go across people that were like paying attention, whereas if I'm near the door, I can just like kind of sneak on out.

Christian Solorzano [07:59]

You don't have to like walk past the projector and like everyone sees your big shadow, but it's interesting because you can always kind of get a sense of the type of student someone is based on where they sit. And over the course of like the last 4 years, I've been noticing patterns that, it's like, all right, if people sit here, this like most likely means something like this.

Yeah, which is kind of interesting. Yeah. So since you've finished college, what have you been doing? Because you've been doing things with new technology or with code. And when I think of you, I think of you as someone that, in my mind, I think of you as this scientist because you walk around with a little black box.

Liam Guiritan [08:53]

Oh, not the black box.

Christian Solorzano [08:55]

And I feel like that black box needs some kind of like sticker on it that says danger or—

Liam Guiritan [09:00]

I don't think that would help my case.

Christian Solorzano [09:02]

Handle with care. Or this side up, and then you open up your box, and inside your box you have these little devices. That for someone that is unaware of what those devices are, it looks like you are putting together some kind of device that might explode.

So but it's not that. You're actually doing some pretty cool things. And so I think of you as someone that is Giving yourself your own form of education. You're someone that's really curious, and I feel like there tends to be a restlessness that I notice within people that are always keen to learn. And I wonder if you agree with that assessment of you.

Liam Guiritan [09:48]

Yeah, I think it's 2 parts. One of it is because I didn't— like, during college, I kind of just Followed the curriculum. Really, occasionally I think outside class I would experiment a bit, but not really much with code. So in other words, I kind of played it safe.

Christian Solorzano [10:07]

Mm-hm.

Liam Guiritan [10:08]

And then the other part of it is just like letting the curiosity part explore it.

Christian Solorzano [10:14]

Mm-hm.

Liam Guiritan [10:15]

Kind of not really worrying about having to meet deadlines and more so just being like, oh, I have— I don't have to worry about submitting this assignment that's due Let me take some time to look at this technology.

Christian Solorzano [10:28]

And is there— and with all that stuff, it requires a lot of discipline, because I think the thing about stepping away from a structured institution like a university is that once you leave, there's no longer these guardrails that require you to have deadlines or to submit assignments and so forth. But I know that for you, I'm imagining that you're— do you give yourself deadlines, or how do you usually go about working on personal things?

Liam Guiritan [11:03]

I think, oh, I kind of look at projects in the quarter or quarterly. So I kind of think about it like, okay, what's a big project that I can do in 3 months? Other times it's like, okay, what's something I can get done in one month because as much as I like doing that exploration, I think exploration without guardrails can get kind of dangerous because it's like, okay, because then you can— you start to like overthink like different directions.

Yeah, so like kind of having those restrictions kind of forces you to like start being more intentional with how you approach decisions.

Christian Solorzano [11:42]

Yeah, and is that intentionality something that you've always had, or what were you, what were you like as a kid? Were you always tinkering with things?

Liam Guiritan [11:53]

I, yeah, I'd say so. I think I was always a curious child growing up. I don't, I wasn't really, as much as I do remember playing with like Hot Wheels and like action figures, I think my toy, like my toy growing up was Legos. So I think it was like, okay, I think that was kind of like the start of like problem solving. I was like, okay, with this instruction, how can I fit these pieces together in a way that will lead to X idea?

Other times, I think that curiosity fostered or was apparent in other ways. I remember there was this Hello Kitty radio that my sisters had that I took apart. Did I put it back together? No. And I don't think my mom was too happy about that. Yeah, because that— and taking things apart and not being able to put them back together, I think it was a recurring pattern in my childhood.

As like a 5-year-old— or I shouldn't say 5-year-old, but as let's say like a 10-year-old— not knowing what it— what a capacitor does, or not knowing what this wiring does, I think leaves a lot of room for like interpretation.

Christian Solorzano [13:01]

Yeah. And as you were— as you were growing up, were your parents— or did you have a household that was pretty encouraging of all of these things, or did you experience some tension?

Liam Guiritan [13:12]

I don't think it was necessarily— I don't think it was tension because for like my parents, how they were grown— like how they grew up, it was there were only 2 career paths, and it was usually like in the medical field or within engineering. And I think when it came time to picking classes, before even approaching them about it, I was like, oh, I want to do something within the performing arts because I was a band kid.

Started playing clarinet in the 4th grade, and then once high school came around, I switched to percussion after my older sister was like, hey, clarinet, chair competitions get kind of— or not necessarily competitions, but chair positions get competitive, so you're probably better off switching to percussion. So initially I thought I wanted to go into music or something within the performing arts.

And then I think I remember it was like, I think around like sophomore year when around the time that I think I got like the topic of like, oh, what do you want to study starts to be introduced. I think I just said, okay, I'm interested in pharmacy just to like fit within that direction that my parents had followed. And I remember asking the person that gave me my flu shot like, hey, I'm interested, like what how do I get started in this?

And he's like, oh yeah, there's this program I think at like Northwestern. I don't recall the exact location, but also around this time I was at like a dual credit program at like a local community college. So a portion of my day was spent at the community college learning like digital— what was called digital media design. So that was like my first entry into like Photoshop and all those programs. I remember telling you in passing that was also the first time I used Adobe Dreamweaver.

Christian Solorzano [15:00]

But there is, to me, I do see that there is an engineering component to your design practice. I don't think of it as merely— I think often people that get into design, it's usually from an artistic lens or a self-expression point of view. And for you, I get the notion that it's more about the process and the exploration and like the backbone of what makes things possible.

So I know that you mentioned like engineering being something that maybe you felt encouraged to pursue, but I think you are doing a form.

Liam Guiritan [15:41]

Yeah, it's kind of funny because I think I was like, no, I don't want to do what mom or dad did. And then, and that was me being like a rebellious teenager. And then 20 years, 10 years later, Here I am.

Christian Solorzano [15:52]

With your little black box.

Liam Guiritan [15:54]

Yeah, with— yeah, the little black box.

Christian Solorzano [15:56]

You need to get a lab coat.

Liam Guiritan [15:58]

That'd be— I think the next review event, yeah, I think I'll consider getting one.

Christian Solorzano [16:06]

A little lab coat and maybe like a little mascot or a little animal that kind of follows you around, like a little rat or something.

Liam Guiritan [16:14]

Like Ratatouille in a way. Yeah. With a lab coat instead of a like a cooking apron.

Christian Solorzano [16:20]

So there's— so to the various facets of Liam, I think that there's design, there is the engineering side of code, and then I know that music is something that you're— that you tend to be passionate about as well. I'm curious about all the different facets that you think come together to make up your philosophy, your approach, your way of thinking. I know that there's music, there's design, there's also code, technology, but is there anything unexpected that we wouldn't normally gather from the things that you do?

Liam Guiritan [16:59]

I feel like all the things I'm interested in are on the artistic side. It's like you mentioned, like film— or not film, but you mentioned like music. I think another part of it is like the interest in like moving media. Like film, because I think everything's kind of— yeah, to your point, everything's kind of like interconnected. But I think if there's one thing outside that creative sphere that I think is somewhat interesting is like coffee.

Christian Solorzano [17:24]

Okay, I know you took a coffee class last weekend, Saturday in the morning. Yeah, and what are— so what was— what about coffee, or what about the, just talk to us a little bit.

Liam Guiritan [17:35]

I mean, it's in a way there's like a Much like how music, there's like a theory to it, film and moving media, there's a theory to it. I think what I took away from the coffee class was that there's also a theory to coffee. And also kind of there's like a science aspect to it as well, like a tinkering, like tinkering.

Because it's like the various variables that affect the taste of coffee. It's like, oh, for example, with like pour-over, it's like, oh, how long, like what temperature is my water at right now? What beans am I using? How fast am I pouring this water? All of that I think is pretty interesting.

Christian Solorzano [18:12]

And what about— so the, so the thing that I always like to ask people is at what point did you— what was the first thing that you ever created that you felt like you were self-aware that you were creating something? That was authored by you, if that makes sense?

Liam Guiritan [18:36]

Are you like in a way asking like what's— what would I consider my earliest thing of like design?

Christian Solorzano [18:42]

Yeah, like your first creation.

Liam Guiritan [18:44]

I think it was a game, like a game board, and I think the 4th or— no, I think I had been like the 6th grade in one of my computer classes. I can vividly remember it was like a blue gradient some like hexagons. I think, I think I had like some like danger, like the danger symbol, like that hazard waste thing.

Christian Solorzano [19:06]

Yeah. Do you remember what— how old were you?

Liam Guiritan [19:08]

Whatever age, at least in the States, you are when you're in like the 6th grade.

Christian Solorzano [19:15]

I don't—

Liam Guiritan [19:15]

I think that's like— my timing might be off, but around like 11, 12.

Christian Solorzano [19:23]

And when it comes to your experimentation with code, I think that in the in this like age of AI where you don't necessarily need to know the backbone or like the infrastructure of how things work, because for example, like today you can just type a prompt and like build a product, build an app, build a website, and so forth. But there is a advantage of understanding that infrastructure and that language that makes things happen.

So for you, I've seen you like the few times that you've been over, I've seen you tinker with your computer and sort of build things. And I've seen the frustration that sometimes comes with trying to type something and then it doesn't do what you want it to do. And I've seen that rather than you, relying on like AI to assist you will go into like the documentation or you'll sort of do it the analog manual way.

And I find that admirable. And I feel like that's something that will distinguish designers in the future is like the people that are like willing to subject themselves to the discomfort that comes with figuring something out as opposed to just like defaulting to like a quick, AI response answer thing. So talk to us a little bit about the agony and suffering that comes with coding.

Liam Guiritan [20:53]

I think it's just to your point of like, for one, on the topic of AI, because I feel like that's a lot that's being discussed in our field. Because like for me, I think when I first started using AI, that was like at the For like the first part of my process and usually like the immediate first thing I do when I couldn't understand a topic.

I don't know what— I can't necessarily pinpoint an exact moment when that changed, but more recently it's now like shifting to having it be the third piece of the process. I think more so recently I kind of have it as like the third step in the— of the troubleshooting because of like that deep learning of like learning of like troubleshooting and figuring out, okay, like actually going in and seeing where things might have gone wrong.

Because I think, yeah, AI is nice when— because it gives you that answer right away. But I feel like using AI to solve your problems, at least when it comes to code, if you don't know what the code is, if you don't know what the output is doing, then I feel like it's counterintuitive.

Christian Solorzano [22:00]

Yeah. So how'd you get into code? I know that when the last time that we spoke, you mentioned that you took a class in college, but you took a class before college too, right?

Liam Guiritan [22:12]

Yeah. And I think my computer apps class in roughly, I think it was the 3rd or 4th, I think 5th or 6th grade. I think it was around then. We used a program called Scratch and essentially it's kind of like code but with Legos. So there were these like blocks and they were like, I think each block was like a function or like a part of it. So you would have like, for example, like conditional statements.

So you'd have one block that would be like, okay, if, or it would be like if, and then you put another block that would set like the condition. And then it was just like putting pieces of the puzzle together. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [22:57]

And today, some of the things that I've seen you tinker with was you were experimenting with Arduino and you were creating a— you were playing with a device that detects the humidity in a room, in an environment. And then you were also experimenting with another device that allows you to— that provides an output based on how close you are to the object.

And to me, what I find fascinating about that is that you're actively having— you're creating design outputs that respond to the environment. And there's something to me magical about that because you're treating design as a collaboration with a space. And I think when I was in school, and I think for a lot of people probably when they're in school, they think of they're trained to think of design as this flat, fixed medium. You create something, you print it, and then it's said and done.

But you're actively finding ways to collaborate with your environments. And I'd love to hear a little bit about what that is like.

Liam Guiritan [24:14]

I think that's interesting because I think it kind of goes, this might counter what I was talking about earlier about constraints, but I think like, yes, constraints help provide guardrails, but sometimes those guardrails can be kind of limiting. So I kind of just imagine, really, I think at the core of it's just imagining, like imagination of like, okay, like what would this, how would this code translate into something outside of design or outside of like a printed poster?

Like what would it look like if I incorporated AR? Like argument— augmented reality to it. And I think, it's interesting that you talk about like that interaction aspect of it, and I think some of it is rooted in collage of like, okay, and like the collaboration part of it too is like, okay, you have like this image, you have this image, how can I tear up this image and create into something, into like something that's like remixed?

Christian Solorzano [25:09]

Because there is something there's something beautiful about collaborating with a space. And also, I imagine that it probably takes the pressure sometimes that we feel as designers where we have to be in control of everything, because you're sort of surrendering creative variables to something else. And I find that to be kind of liberating.

Yeah, because it's like, all right, this could be blue or red. It doesn't really matter. I'm not in control of that. It's up to Algorithm. Yeah, to the algorithm. So I personally look forward to more of those type of experiences as time goes on because I do feel— I know for myself, sometimes static fixed design can get a little bit predictable.

Liam Guiritan [26:02]

Yeah. And I think it was a talk from Studio Dunbar of like how the motion is— I shouldn't necessarily say definitively of it being the future, but more so just like that's something that designers should start looking more into doing. It's like, how can things be animated?

Christian Solorzano [26:20]

Yeah, that's just— that thing's turning off. Yeah. Because sometimes when I see, for example, student work, I'll notice that— or just any kind of work— you can have a logo or some kind of mark that on the surface could just look kind of ordinary and plain, but then usually the motion sort of is the breath that brings it, that makes it come to life.

Liam Guiritan [26:44]

Right. And I think motion kind of elevates a brand's message because I think when we think of brands, we immediately think of logos. But I think another aspect to that is how does that exist in their environment? And I'm not saying, oh, how does the logo itself like, how does the logo itself exist in the environment, but more so, how does like that, the brand's message exist in the environment? I think it was going back to Studio Dunbar and like their work for the DEMO Festival.

I think the biggest thing was like, how does that work exist? How does a motion poster exist at a transit station? Or how does that exist in, let's say, a billboard in a metropolitan area?

Christian Solorzano [27:28]

Yeah, one of the things that I was talking yesterday with my mentor, we were talking about the word craft and we were saying, well, he was making a response to a previous conversation that I had on this podcast where we were talking about, me and the guest were talking about craft as this kind of bespoke component of creativity.

Because if As everything turns into this rapid— as design becomes more of a commodity where people are just spitting out identities and websites and everything with the help of AI, like super fast. I was mentioning in this conversation that craft is going to become this thing that people yearn for. And the response that my mentor gave me was that the word craft itself implies that it's sort of this antiquated thing of the past.

Where when we think of craft, we might think of bookbinding or letterpress or anything that is maybe out of the zeitgeist, like something that feels— yeah, just like bookbinding, for example, or like screen printing. But I think there is a craft. You can still have craft even if you're experimenting with like AI and code and all that kind of stuff. So I'm curious about what the word craft means to you and how you see craft. Just what are your thoughts on craft?

Liam Guiritan [29:04]

I think as you're saying that, I think the word that came to mind was like human. There's a human aspect to craft. For example, like bookbinding. Yes, there's like a— there are ways— there is like the right way to like bind something, but I think like that imperfection that comes with like, let's say, oh, look like the paper isn't perfectly lined up, or in like, I'll say collage. I think collage is like a great example of craft.

It's like, how does this particular tear in the paper— what does that do?

Christian Solorzano [29:39]

Yeah, but do you think that there's I think there's also a craft to making a prompt or a craft to code or a craft to— like, I think craft, I'm still trying to figure out how to redefine that word and what it means because I don't want craft to feel like we're referring to this romanticized craft.

Liam Guiritan [30:07]

Yeah. I don't think necessarily craft— like now, I don't think craft necessarily has to just be something that's analog. I think it can also be something like you had mentioned, like translate more into the digital realm. I think it's like also kind of like part of the craft is like syntax.

For example, in code, there's many ways to do the same thing. For example, like I can draw ellipses in like 2 different— a line of ellipses in 2 different ways. However I write it is like special to me, but that doesn't necessarily mean that if someone else did something a different way, that's wrong. We both achieved the result but in a different way.

Christian Solorzano [30:50]

As you look into the future of your— whatever it is that you're doing, how do you— what are some of the benchmarks that you use to sort of assess your growth? And how do you measure up against yourself?

Liam Guiritan [31:08]

I think the biggest thing, because I'm someone that tends to get comfortable doing the same thing over and over again, so I kind of like playing things safe sometimes. But when it comes to personal projects, generally one of my benchmarks of success quote-unquote success is like, what, how did I push myself in this project? And for example, like the weather project, which update, I'm not going through with it.

It's more so okay, like although I didn't— I'm not going through with the project anymore, it's like I learned this thing. And usually that's like what it is. It's like, what did I learn new? What, technology or what aspect did I learn new?

Christian Solorzano [31:53]

Yeah. And being— and given that you're someone that is in— that finished school not too long ago, what would be your words of advice for someone that is finishing college or that just finished college that is trying to sort of find themselves, find their place in the industry?

Liam Guiritan [32:18]

I think just experimentation. Because I think that's where like the tone of voice and perspective come from.

Christian Solorzano [32:24]

And do you find that you're someone that is actively looking at trends or— because to me the work that you're doing seems to come from a place of you wanting to learn a new skill set and sort of the process informing the outputs. Whereas I notice sometimes, especially with young students, is that when they're trying to find their voice, they're looking to like Pinterest or Instagram or like any sort of like inspiration avenue.

To kind of inform their craft, but I don't get the sense that that's something that you're— I don't get a sense that that's how you operate.

Liam Guiritan [33:15]

No, I— before I would actually use Pinterest and those inspiration boards, because I know there's so many out there and I'm guilty of falling into that. But I think after a while it can kind of get soul-sucking because it's like, okay, Pinterest, from how I understand it, it's like you'll click on one image and then it'll show a bunch of other images of like, oh, this is something similar.

And then an hour will like pass by and then you'll just like forget where you're looking, what you had originally looked out for.

So generally I don't try to look at like Instagram or Pinterest for inspiration. Usually it's— I'll discover it. I think sometimes it'll be like a springboard into something, so, but other times it will be usually how like my inspiration will tailor is books will then direct me towards Instagram, but then also Instagram will tend to like direct me towards other books again. It's kind of like this ping pong.

Christian Solorzano [34:21]

Yeah, and what are some of your personal— well, talk to us about your taste. What tickles your eyes?

Liam Guiritan [34:30]

I think typography. And I think variable fonts, variable fonts too. Yeah, just and this is a good, or I shouldn't necessarily say good, but just interesting use of typography. Something that I've been interested in is like with like kinetic typography. Yes, I've seen a lot of like sans-serif fonts being used, but I'm curious to see like how I can use, I don't know, Times New Roman as an example. And something that's moving.

Christian Solorzano [35:03]

So typography. What else?

Liam Guiritan [35:06]

I think image, like image-making. And I think image-making in a way that responds to some type of environment. Something with motion.

Christian Solorzano [35:19]

And what are some things that you just can't stand? I feel like every designer has the things that they're just super judgy about.

Liam Guiritan [35:25]

I know one conversation we had, I said Y2K. But I kind of take that back.

Christian Solorzano [35:31]

Oh, it's fine. You can do whatever you want.

Liam Guiritan [35:34]

I'll take it back. And originally, well, because when I said Y2K, I think that was just like a spur-of-the-moment thing, but I think sitting on it further, because when I think of like Y2K, there's like that human aspect to it. I think that's where I think about my work, like the stuff that I've been doing. It's like there is still that tangible tangibility, tangible, something like that, tangible, that tangible aspect of it that's so, it's like rooted in it.

Oh, I think, I think it's the use of the replicating analog textures but with digital. So I think like an example is like the template packs where it's like a scanned image or like the scanning effect. But my thing is like, just print what you want the effect to be on and then just scan it because then it's unique and doesn't look like the next person that also used the scanning effect.

Christian Solorzano [36:43]

Yeah, I'm sick of textures. And I think it's because I think you can put a texture on anything and it'll look good. It'll look cool.

Liam Guiritan [36:56]

Yeah, like what textures are you—

Christian Solorzano [36:58]

Have you been seeing? I've noticed that there's a lot of gig posters, like concert posters.

Liam Guiritan [37:04]

Like the rave posters?

Christian Solorzano [37:06]

Yeah, and it'll just be just a texture over it and then it looks—

Liam Guiritan [37:11]

Oh, I think I see what you mean, like the same like distressed?

Christian Solorzano [37:15]

Yeah, like the type— it's almost like those vintage band t-shirts that you sometimes like buy new, but they look like they've been worn for like 20 years. And I and it's not that I don't like the look, like I appreciate that look, but I feel as if when it's, when it's not authentic or real, you can kind of— it comes across as kind of performative.

Liam Guiritan [37:41]

The way that I kind of think of it, it's like when H&M makes a vintage band tee. It's different than when, let's say, I'll just name drop, like Reckless Records has one.

Christian Solorzano [37:52]

Yeah, or like you buy it like used at like a vintage store. And but I feel like that distressed textured aesthetic, I think, is a nod to nostalgia, and I feel like there's a huge sense of nostalgia for like the past.

And I think that's maybe that's a reason why sometimes the Y2K look is interesting to people, especially for people that maybe did not exist in that time period. So yeah, and like I said, like I love the nostalgic look, but I don't know, sometimes I— it's my pet peeve. Yeah. So do you find that you're— is there a period and is there a decade or an era of design that you feel you identify with most?

Liam Guiritan [38:54]

I think it's around the era of Wolfgang Weingart and then jumping a few around, like the work of a Grey Gunning and a Chris Ashworth, like around like that era. I think I see a lot of my roots coming from.

Christian Solorzano [39:08]

Okay, so you're not too keen on like modernism?

Liam Guiritan [39:11]

I think initially, I think my design— if you were to take my design work that I did in college, it would very much lean towards that direction of like, oh, modernism, everything's structured. But then you post that up against what I'm doing now, it's like, who is this?

Christian Solorzano [39:26]

Yeah. I think of modernism as being like a rite of passage for a designer.

Liam Guiritan [39:30]

I think like avant-garde, from how I remember it being introduced to me, is like it kind of is an extension of like the modernism stuff, but more so like a different perspective of it. Because I think like avant-garde still used like Helvetica and all the stuff like from modernism, but it was like, hey—

Christian Solorzano [39:48]

Like a middle finger.

Liam Guiritan [39:49]

Yeah, in a way. Yeah, like a middle finger.

Christian Solorzano [39:53]

I think you and I, we talked briefly in the past about the adjectives that as designers we sometimes use to describe—

Liam Guiritan [40:03]

No, not this conversation.

Christian Solorzano [40:05]

To describe work. And I think it's interesting how yeah, just how as designers we just what are, what are the words that we default to when we're talking about our work? And I think when it comes to modernism, the words that I tend to hear repeatedly over and over and over again is always like simple, minimal, clean.

And I find that sometimes I also use those words as just like a— I just default to some of those words sometimes. And I wonder if how you, how you've described your work has evolved over time. And if you were a third party looking at the work of Liam, how would you assess yourself? What are some of the words that you would use to describe what you're doing?

Liam Guiritan [40:56]

I've been kind of reluctant saying this word because I think it's been overused, is this experimental. Because it's like, I feel like the word experimental is so vague because on one side, experimental to me can mean the act of experimenting, but experimental can also look like Something that, work that's breaking or that goes against the mold of what currently is considered a trend.

Christian Solorzano [41:23]

Yeah, that word experimental, I find interesting because I love experimental work. But do you think— do you find that experimental is a process or a look?

Liam Guiritan [41:35]

I think it's more of a process. A process. Okay. I think it's more of the verb, like experimental more as like the verb as opposed to like the noun.

Christian Solorzano [41:47]

Yeah. And what would you say would be the counter to experimental as a process?

Liam Guiritan [41:53]

Oh, that's a— wow. I mean, the word safe.

Christian Solorzano [42:01]

Okay. So like a safe process?

Liam Guiritan [42:03]

Yeah. Or straight to the point.

Christian Solorzano [42:06]

Okay. Yeah. My friend Sean and I, we've debated this word. A handful of times, because it's like, is experimental a look? Is it a process? Isn't everything inherently experimental if you're— I don't know. It's like one of those things that I can't quite define.

Liam Guiritan [42:26]

Because I think of like, experimental typefaces. It's like, generally— well, I shouldn't necessarily say generally, but at least what I've been seeing of quote-unquote experimental typefaces is ones that challenge legibility. Ones that you kind of have to really sit with. So it counters what we think of type design as being something that's straightforward and easy to read.

Christian Solorzano [42:53]

Yeah. Do you think the job of the designer is always to communicate things clearly?

Liam Guiritan [43:00]

I think it's just to communicate an idea.

Christian Solorzano [43:02]

OK. Yeah. I went to my friend Joseph Essex's house this past Friday. Thursday, actually. And he's a designer that's been practicing since like the late '60s, early '70s. And a lot of his work would classify possibly as modernist. His objective was always to communicate things as clear as possible and to not necessarily adhere to a style, but more so—

Communication for the Sake of Communication. And I asked him his thoughts on the experimental part of the '90s where people like David Carson or like Chris Ashworth were sort of turning their back on legibility. And like David Carson, in some cases, like there's a famous editorial design that he did, which was an article about the Brian Ferry, the artist behind Roxy Music. And if I remember correctly, David Carson found the article to be really boring.

Liam Guiritan [44:11]

So he cited like Wingdings or something?

Christian Solorzano [44:14]

Yeah, Wingdings. Yeah, Wingdings.

Liam Guiritan [44:15]

Dingbat font.

Christian Solorzano [44:17]

And I, and I wrestle with that. It's like, is that good design or is it bad design? I don't know.

Liam Guiritan [44:27]

I mean, as long as I think some message is communicated, I think that's one of the most important things. Because like, experimentate— if we go back to this idea of experimentation, it's like experimentation— when— let me backtrack a bit. It's like there's like— I think about this idea from a book I read, and I think it's the Code Crafter book that I showed you a while back, is this idea of this difference between generative design or creative coding and generative design.

And the definition that I think the designer was like Patrick Huebner, it was— and then it's the definition that I agree with is like generative or creative coding is very like exploratory, kind of seeing what sticks. Whereas like generative design is more intentional, and that comes from like establishing those like guardrails.

Christian Solorzano [45:26]

Yeah, it's yeah, it's something I think about quite often, like these definitions and sort of— I think generally it's— I think I find the work that is the most interesting is usually when it's sparking some kind of conversation.

Liam Guiritan [45:54]

Yeah, and I know it's interesting because I think of a lot of my, I would say, inspirations, or I've been finding in design, come from outside the United States. So a lot of stuff from like South Korea, for example, Japan, some stuff in like Switzerland, a lot of that. Whereas I feel like here, Maybe it comes from here in the States. It's like there's always like the capitalist gain. Oh, how can this design be used to generate X amount of money?

Christian Solorzano [46:27]

Yeah. I know I've been on several projects where I'll attempt to maybe make things— like push away from things being extra legible or super descriptive, and they're— and that tends to make people feel as if it's too risky. And I don't know, I feel like that, that— I feel like capitalism, at least here in the States, it does hold back design drastically. Like even advertisements tend to all look identical, just like different color palette.

Liam Guiritan [47:14]

The same, similar serif or sans-serif font.

Christian Solorzano [47:18]

Yeah, it's just oh, it's like a sans-serif because it's like medical and it's a serif because it's like, some law firm. So I think that's why I look up to the stuff that you're doing and a lot of the— and many people that Participate in things that the Chicago Graphic Design Club is doing, because I do, I do get a sense that there's like these little pockets of people that are trying to do something that feels like it's new and different.

So as you look to the future of design and like maybe your practice, how do you— what are some of the things that give you hope? Print?

Liam Guiritan [48:09]

I just think, yeah, kind of going back to like what we were talking about with the Y2K era is that I think there's just like— I feel like a lot of people with the rise of technology and like AI are yearning for more tangible physical things. So I think, yeah, print is definitely giving me a lot of hope just seeing how things can still exist in the physical world and not necessarily have to exist on screen.

Christian Solorzano [48:35]

Yeah. One of the things that, as we've been working on this 3rd issue of our magazine, we've been contemplating this idea of low touch versus high touch. And I think, for example, a lot of digital experiences I would consider to be very low touch. It's like you interact with them, you see them, and then you swipe up and there's something new. And they all feel the same because they're all experienced on the same flat surface.

But the— this notion of high touch would be the visceral nature of design. And I do feel as if our biology yearns for this high touch. And even this conversation that we're having right now, I would consider to be— High touch.

Liam Guiritan [49:23]

Yeah, because we could have this— like, I could have not had come in here and just had hopped on the Zoom call. Yeah, but I think something that's about doing it in person, there's like something like that connection can't be replicated.

Christian Solorzano [49:36]

And I think that is, to me, that's what— that's— I look forward to just design amplifying more of these high-touch. Scenarios because I don't know, they're necessary. I think that, I think they're crucial to the advancement of our craft. Or our disciplines? And I think there, there's this, there's this embodied, there's information that goes beyond language that we collect when we share space. And I think design needs to enable that more.

Liam Guiritan [50:20]

Yeah, there needs to be more of a— I feel like more nowadays, I feel like there needs to be more community aspect to design, or more, or just more so collaboration. Yeah, in person, like person-to-person interaction. Yeah, collaboration. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [50:37]

So tell us a little bit about your upcoming, the upcoming event that you're going to be participating at in just a few days.

Liam Guiritan [50:44]

The Wonder Museum gig, right?

Christian Solorzano [50:48]

Yep. And by the time that this episode comes out—

Liam Guiritan [50:50]

I think it's gonna pass. I would— I think, yeah, but—

Christian Solorzano [50:53]

Oh, damn it. It'll be— it'll pass already. So tell us, how was it?

Liam Guiritan [50:57]

Yeah, let me travel. Let me travel to the future real quick. Oh, hold on. By the time this episode comes out, technically— oh, I don't know. By the time this episode comes out, would I be traveling to the future or to the past?

Christian Solorzano [51:14]

So right now you have to travel to the— you have to travel to the future, and then—

Liam Guiritan [51:19]

Because technically when it comes out, I'd have to travel my— okay, so my recollection now, or me talking about it now, would be considered the future, but when this episode comes out, it technically would be the Past. So right now, this is getting too meta. This is getting too meta.

Christian Solorzano [51:39]

So right now it is April 4th. I want you to travel to April 11th, and then I want you to travel back to Saturday to April 4th, and then I want you to travel to April 13th when the episode's gonna come out.

Liam Guiritan [51:58]

Okay, let's— okay. So by the time this episode comes out, I'm gonna have had just performed a live coding or yeah, like a live coding thing at the Wonder Museum. And the event— see, now I'm trying to think of tenses. So the event, by the time that everyone's listening, was called Audiovisual Code. And it is a, I think Chicago—

Christian Solorzano [52:27]

What?

Liam Guiritan [52:28]

The first, at least in Chicago, of its kind, of what is called an algorave. So that takes the word algorithm and rave together. And the focus of it is— I shouldn't necessarily say focus, but more so what is performed is all code-based. The musical artists would perform with Strudel, which is a web-based— Performance environment, whereas like the artists, like visual artists, would also perform with something that involves code. So man, I'm like trying to like think about the whole past, present, future thing, but—

Christian Solorzano [53:05]

There would be a great flood.

Liam Guiritan [53:06]

Yeah, I can't— don't trust me as a fortune teller, please. But so there are different ways you can like live code. So for the event, I Had I— would be performing— okay, I'll talk in the present tense because this is going to be confusing. But for the event, my tool of choice is p5.live, which is just an extension of the JavaScript library p5.js. And it's essentially like a live code editor. So all the changes that you make to the code would reflect in real time.

Christian Solorzano [53:42]

Okay. And what are the winning lottery numbers?

Liam Guiritan [53:46]

Let's go to a commercial real quick. I wish I knew. I wish I knew the winning lottery numbers.

Christian Solorzano [53:55]

No, I think that's awesome. And I will be there.

Liam Guiritan [54:01]

I was there. Thanks for coming to that. It was great. Would I be saying thank you now as of us recording? I'd say thank you in advance.

Christian Solorzano [54:10]

You already told me thank you.

Liam Guiritan [54:12]

I don't know.

Christian Solorzano [54:15]

You said, thanks for coming I hope you enjoyed it, and I said, of course. That's cool. Anyways, so we do time travel on this podcast.

Liam Guiritan [54:24]

Quantum mechanics is definitely at play right now.

Christian Solorzano [54:26]

Yeah, it all came from your little black box.

Liam Guiritan [54:28]

Yep. Schrödinger's cat? No, Schrödinger's box.

Christian Solorzano [54:32]

So we're almost approaching the end of our conversation, but I want to spend just some time talking about what are some of the things that you've been— that you've been inspiring— that you've been inspired by lately. I want to start off by asking you, what are some of your everyday carry items? What are some things that you can't live without?

Liam Guiritan [54:58]

Obviously my phone. Yeah, I'd say my phone, but only because I don't have any social media on my phone with the exception of YouTube. But is YouTube considered social media? We can debate that later. But I think at the core of it is just like Spotify.

I think just not having some form of audio to listen to is nice to have. I think that kind of helps with creative direction as well. It's because I feel like if I listen to, let's say, ambient music, I'll have a very different result than if I were to listen to rock or jazz. And then on that extent, headphones too.

Christian Solorzano [55:45]

What else?

Liam Guiritan [55:45]

Pen and paper.

Christian Solorzano [55:46]

Pen and paper. Okay. I feel like you're very particular about your writing instruments. So what do you write with?

Liam Guiritan [55:54]

I write with— okay, so I write on a Rhodia Web something notepad. I forgot the name of it. I was gonna say WebSocket, but that's something totally different. WebPals? I don't know, I don't know, but that's one part of it. And then the other, my main writing utensil— I used to use pens but I think I started to get a little bit sick of them. I'm writing with a Rotring Rapid 600 with 0.4, no, with— I think the lead hardness is like the 4B.

Christian Solorzano [56:27]

Okay, cool. And what are some other things?

Liam Guiritan [56:32]

I feel like a lot— I could see my phone again, but I think just like a camera of some sort.

Christian Solorzano [56:38]

Okay. What do you usually find your— that your— is— what is your eye typically drawn to?

Liam Guiritan [56:44]

Lights. And the way like how light— anything in— I find myself taking a lot of like long, or at least with my phone, like the long exposures on phones. Yeah, anything in motion I think I find really interesting.

Christian Solorzano [57:03]

And what about— you mentioned YouTube. What do you usually watch on YouTube?

Liam Guiritan [57:08]

Sometimes it's like watching other designers, other times it's Stuff within the realm of like, with like the film industry, like VFX. Other times it's like stuff with like coffee. Other times it's like lectures, like design lectures.

Christian Solorzano [57:25]

So very studious.

Liam Guiritan [57:28]

Yeah. Other times it's like analyses of like films or explanation videos of films.

Christian Solorzano [57:34]

What about, do you watch any trash things? Like any like pranks or—

Liam Guiritan [57:39]

Oh, I used to it's been a while. It's— I don't think because I, I'm not on— I don't have Instagram on my phone. I think it's very hard for— okay, I don't as much. I think before, I guess I kind of have like my YouTube kind of catered so where it's like I don't have my watch history. I don't have— I can't scroll like scroll on YouTube Shorts.

Christian Solorzano [58:04]

Is that something you can—

Liam Guiritan [58:06]

I think you can yeah, you can modify it because it would be really bad where I just get stuck in like scrolling through YouTube Shorts all the time, or you— whatever it's— yeah, everything sounds— it's starting to sound the same. YouTube Shorts, Instagram Reels, everything sounds the same. But usually it was— I think what I remember scroll— scrolling through a lot was like DIY stuff or like in like 30-second hacks.

Christian Solorzano [58:33]

I find YouTube to be incredibly addicting. I know you're— we've talked about internet browsers. And well, the last guest that I had, we spent some time talking about internet browsers. And the last time you and I spoke, you shared with me a browser that you use called Brave. Are there any other soft— is there any other software like you mentioned applications on your phone, like what are some of your computer software?

Liam Guiritan [59:05]

Essentially, usually on like my laptop, I'll have VS Code open because that's generally my— I try to have all my like programs contained. So VS Code so I can work with p5.js or Processing, but then I also tend to have the terminal open because kind of just been trying to challenge myself if of like, how can I, how can I like open this application without having to right-click or open my dock?

Christian Solorzano [59:34]

Yeah, it is. It does feel really empowering to use Terminal to do things that normally would require clicks.

Liam Guiritan [59:45]

And right, it kind of feels like hacking into the mainframe. Yeah, in a way. Sometimes it is, but like more so it's just kind of going back to the whole curiosity thing of like, okay, like how can I achieve this step without having to rely on like user interfaces?

Christian Solorzano [60:01]

Yeah. So is there anything else that you'd like to share with us?

Liam Guiritan [60:07]

That's a very open, open-ended question.

Christian Solorzano [60:12]

It is.

Liam Guiritan [60:14]

I don't think there is.

Christian Solorzano [60:15]

I want to encourage everyone that's listening to consider looking at, checking out your websites and also hopefully giving themselves permission to experiment beyond the Adobe Creative Suite. Because, yeah, I feel like there's such a large untapped design playground that I, that I, that I unfortunately, at least in Chicago, I don't see many people like experimenting with.

Liam Guiritan [60:53]

Yeah, and I don't— yeah, and I think we've talked about this before, I recently don't— like uninstalled Adobe.

Christian Solorzano [60:59]

Yeah. So cool. So we'll include the— if people have any questions, how do you prefer people reach out to you?

Liam Guiritan [61:05]

On either Instagram or email. I mean, you can go connect with me on LinkedIn, but Probably in those three orders. It's just my first name and my last name. So it's Liam L I for Instagram. It's Liam dot Guiritan G U I R I T A N. And I think my email, I have to remember because I have my email and my website are slightly different. I think my email is Liam dot Guiritan at gmail dot com. That sounds right.

Yeah, and then my website is liam-guiritan.com.

Christian Solorzano [61:42]

Okay, and then just one last question. What makes you happy?

Liam Guiritan [61:53]

The ability— I think the ability to create. I think that is what really is what makes me happy, and also just curiosity.

Christian Solorzano [62:04]

Okay, all right, thank you so much, Liam.

Liam Guiritan [62:06]

Yep, and thank you, Christian, for having me.

Christian Solorzano [62:08]

This was fun. And thank you also for everyone that's listening. We're recording this in my studio here, and it was such a hassle to get all the equipment working. So if you're watching this on video, you'll notice that like about halfway through, my camera switched from the camera to my computer camera. So you are, yeah, listening to something that we are trying out for the first time ever.

Liam Guiritan [62:37]

So honored to be a part of this experience and experiment. Cool. All right.

Christian Solorzano [62:44]

Well, thank you so much, Liam.

Liam Guiritan [62:45]

Yep. And thank you.

Christian Solorzano [62:46]

As always, thank you for sticking around till the end. Like I mentioned in the beginning, if you enjoy Underscore and you want to learn more about us, visit www.chicagographicdesign.club. And we really appreciate when listeners leave us a rating wherever they listen. So thank you for your support, and we'll talk to you soon.

Liam Guiritan [63:09]

Goodbye.

Christian Solorzano [63:09]

Goodbye.