Christian Solorzano [00:00]

Hello, you are listening to Underscore, a show by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I am your host, Christian Solorzano, and today's episode is special because it is our 90th episode, and I am really proud of my conversation with Matt Avery, the founder of Monograph, a Chicago-based design studio specializing in publishing and typography. Matt's journey from engineering student to one of Chicago's most respected book designers is a story of true craft and dedication.

After 14 years as a designer at the University of Chicago Press, where he worked on the design of the Chicago Manual of Style, the 17th edition, Matt founded Monograph in 2018 as a way to pursue an independent practice. And in our conversation, we explore his evolution from someone that was fascinated by the experimental attitude and nature of publications like Emigre to a designer who's found his rhythm with a refined palette of trusted typefaces.

Matt shares insights into the intricate world of book design, from cast-offs and typography decisions to the subjective nature of COVID design and client feedback. Before his professional practice— well, beyond his professional practice, we discover Matt's life as a Logan Square resident. That's a neighborhood here in Chicago. His volunteer work as a tree keeper with Openlands and his beloved art practice, creating photographic collages.

We talk about the creative process, the moments that make design feel worthwhile, and how working with trees connects to the same aesthetic sensibilities that guide his design choices. This conversation captures what makes Chicago's design community so great. The intersection of craft, community, and the kind of thoughtful practice that comes from truly knowing your medium. So as always, if you enjoy conversations like this, I really appreciate your support. We really appreciate your support.

If you leave us a rating wherever you listen and share with your friends, it helps us expand our reach. So as always, thank you so much for tuning in. Enjoy the conversation. Good afternoon, Matt.

Matt Avery [02:43]

Good to see you, Christian.

Christian Solorzano [02:45]

This is you. You are our 90th guest.

Matt Avery [02:50]

Wow. So I'm honored. You guys are prolific.

Christian Solorzano [02:57]

Yeah, it's been, it's been, very joyful to work on this, on this show for the last 3 years, and I've been wanting to speak with you for a while because you were, you, you've been to our events since the, since the beginning. And was it 2020 or was it 2021? It was when we were doing book, like we were doing book discussions online.

Matt Avery [03:22]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, you guys had a book club going, I think. Geez, what was the one? There was one about like capitalism, right? Caps Lock. Thank you. And yeah, that was great that you guys did that. And then, yeah, Jackson did a talk downtown at Printer's Row.

Yeah, I went to that. Really great talk on like Chicago Printing history. Yeah. Yeah, you guys do like an amazing amount of stuff. I just, I mean, I think, I think people appreciate it, but it's hard to appreciate just how much work it is unless you do it, unless you've done it.

Christian Solorzano [04:13]

But yeah, but it's really fun. And I, and I, and I selfishly, to me, having conversations like this are a informal way for me to get an education. So I feel like it's just my graduate program is meeting with all these amazingly talented people and getting a chance to just hear what they have to say.

Matt Avery [04:36]

Yeah, that's awesome.

Christian Solorzano [04:38]

So I have like 90 credit hours right now. That's like a master's degree, I think.

Matt Avery [04:46]

Yeah, like maybe a couple. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [04:49]

So anyway, so thank you so much for being on today's show. And also thank you for the wonderful talk that you gave, like a few weeks ago at Public Works Gallery on behalf of our Cold Style series. And this was Cold Style 3. We did our first one back in February. We did one over the summer. And then, and then you were one of the speakers for August. It was August.

Matt Avery [05:22]

Yeah. Yeah. I was honored to take part. And it's like a great exercise to like kind of be forced to reflect on your process in a way that you don't always like slow down and do unless, you gotta sit down and like write something or think about how you would explain something to someone. And so I always learn when I, have like the chance to do something like that. And it was great to meet the other speakers, like their work and presentations were like really great.

Christian Solorzano [06:00]

Yeah, I agree. So you founded Monograph Studio in 2018, so it'll be 10 years in 3 years. Well, do you, do you remember what month you founded Monograph?

Matt Avery [06:18]

Yeah, it's funny. It was like right at the beginning of a year, like a calendar year. So there was like otherwise I would never remember. But yeah, so there's kind of like a nice neat like break there. I, you know left my job and then it was kind of like, end of the year holidays, went away, came back and there was Came home and I was like, okay, here we go. So kind of a nice, neat and tidy start to things, I guess.

Yeah, it's been— I feel like I should have maybe marked some like milestones, like 5 years or 7 years, like taking like a 1-day retreat or something. I don't know. But I don't know, 8 years is coming up. That doesn't like really have a ring to it. So I think, I think you're right. I think 10 years is the one to yeah, keep my eye on. Maybe I can plan something special for myself.

Christian Solorzano [07:19]

And your studio primarily focuses on publishing. So a lot of typography, forward projects, book design, layout, et cetera. And before that, you worked at the University of Chicago. You were the principal designer for over 14 years. You left there in December of 2017, and then Monograph started in January of 2018. So what was the turning point for wanting to step away from a 15-year-old relationship with an institution?

Matt Avery [08:00]

Yeah. It was just something that I'd been thinking about for a little while. Just what would it be like to work on my own? What would be the new opportunities, challenges to take on? And so it was just a way to, advance professionally, I guess. There wasn't, it's like, they have a nice, good-sized department of designers for like, a small to medium-sized publisher. But there's still so many, people, have long careers there.

So there's not necessarily an opportunity every year to like get a promotion or take on new responsibilities. So, I had been promoted to Principal Designer like a few years ago, so that kind of gave me more like chance to grow there. But then it was it felt like maybe the next logical step for me to grow professionally, even personally. And like one limiting factor had just been kind of like practical personal circumstances.

My wife had kind of worked part-time and helped raise the kids, and then she had gone back to work full-time once they were a little bit older and in school full-time. So it was kind of a little bit of trading off. It's like, okay, well, she had been in her job for a few years, it felt secure. It's like, okay, I can kind of take this, feels more risky when you have kids. So I can, take this little step and try working on my own.

And yeah, just, I felt like things just kind of like aligned. I had— it was going to be right around the time I was finishing up a really big project at the press. One of the things University of Chicago Press is known for is the Chicago Manual style. Which for book publishing is kind of the— it's like the Bible, right? Yeah, it's kind of the Bible for book publishing. So it's really known for that.

And, to get to work on an edition of that is a nice honor. And so I had the chance to do that, and that was kind of a multi-year thing. And so then when that was, I wouldn't have wanted to like leave midstream in that. I mean, they would have been fine without me, but it was nice to see it through and that came to an end. And yeah, it was just a good time in my life to hang my shingle, as I say.

So yeah, I guess those were the things that came together.

Christian Solorzano [11:05]

Yeah. So how'd you get into design? I feel like the route of doing book design is such a very specific route and path. So what was your introduction into doing a lot of the work that you do today?

Matt Avery [11:24]

Well, just in terms of getting into design, I think I kind of struggled a little bit in college to find what I wanted to focus on. I started off in like engineering just because I had some high school teachers that kind of pushed me in like math and physics. And so I had like a little bit of credit and I was like just thinking practically. I thought like, well, okay, I have this, I should, apply this to something.

And then I showed up the first day of engineering class and I knew within 15 minutes I was in the wrong room because all these kids were talking about like these crazy engineering projects they'd done over the summer for fun, and I just thought I would never think about doing any of this. I'm in the wrong— I'm in the wrong room. I kind of had like a sinking feeling in my stomach, like immediately. And then ended up like switching schools, taking some time off.

Like initially I switched to psychology because I thought psychology feels like the opposite of engineering. And psychology is really interesting as an academic pursuit, but that didn't really stick either. I think, kind of in between, getting back into, a full-time college, I took some community college classes, and there was an art class, and I kind of— I think I kind of had, rediscovered, my, when I was much younger, before high school, I did enjoy drawing.

I was kind of known as, the class artist, even, I wasn't like good, but I was like the kid that would enjoy drawing, and people would, and then it kind of fell away. I didn't really have like an art class in high school, and I was— I wasn't like good at sports, but I was really into it, like that was what I enjoyed doing in high school more.

And so I kind of ended up coming back around to it a little bit, trying to make Zines with a friend, making really bad, poetry, like coffee shop poetry and art, and hawking it on the street. Like and then I guess I knew, I knew graphic design was a thing because of somebody like my parents knew that had a design studio.

And so I think I visited and saw what they did. And honestly, I didn't like fall in love with it right away, but I just like knew it was like a thing that you could— if you're interested in art, this was like a— it was like it's applied art, right? So you can take that interest and put it in design if you want. So anyways, I did end up like studying design at a little liberal arts college.

And so that kind of sent me down that path. And then as far as book design, initially I thought I might want to work at a magazine. That's what kind of stimulated me, while I was in school. This is kind of— it was fun that, Barry was at the cold style talk, because when I was in college, Emma Gray, loomed so large in my like, as an inspiration. I mean, it was already kind of past their, heyday.

Heyday, their magazine was kind of more— wasn't, as visually adventurous as it had been at one time, but it was still this, forum for, people that were challenging the status quo and, seemed like rabble-rousers and it was all very appealing to, a young person in college. So, I thought, yeah, magazines seemed like an exciting venue to work in design kind of more freely and expressively.

But I ended up— so then after college Wanted to move to a city, had friends in Chicago, so I moved to Chicago. And it's not like the hotbed of, publishing, like the center of it is kind of like in New York. And for magazines, I seem to be finding like trade magazines and things like that I tried to get jobs at and, I know there were other publications, but I just ended up landing a job at like a very small book publisher.

And that was— it just kind of clicked for me. I started educating myself more about book design, and I found, I think I'm really well suited to this. Whatever gifts I have in design seem to be like— book design seems to be like a good fit for that. I just really fell in love with the, one thing special about book design is it has such a long history that predates like graphic design as we know it.

So you can, see yourself in this like really, even though you're just like a dot on the spectrum, you're like in this thing that has this like super long history that you can— that goes back centuries. So fell in love with book typography, like the really kind of small, like microtypography things that you can really pour yourself into, like attending with book design.

And yeah, that just gave me my start. And then I just, I felt like it clicked and I wanted to stay doing that. I remember people advising me, not to specialize, not to get like typecast as a, like a book designer, to be more generalist. And I just remember thinking like, I, that's like all I want to do. I don't care about, yeah.

Not that I don't appreciate other things, but as far as what I want to do, it was— I just— that's just what I, was so happy to focus on. And yeah, and then University of Chicago Press was— I was aware of their work and admired what I saw coming out from there. So I thought, if I stayed in Chicago, that would be my dream job. And again, kind of like this good fortune, I guess.

There was like an opening when I had, just enough experience to kind of get my foot in the door. And it is the kind of place that you could stay at for a long time and be happy because it's like, I have like such dear friends there. Like my mentor is still there. So I still think it's like a great place to work and it's like, it just would have been a different path, like staying there, continuing to work there, and being happy.

It's like something that, there's like an alternate reality where that's the case. But, I just kind of had this itch to try and work on my own. So yeah, I felt like I owed it to myself to at least give it a shot at some point. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [19:14]

And through a lot of the work that you're doing today and being a book designer for sure such a long time, do you— I'm curious to understand if there is any innovations or if your way of working has evolved, let's say just over the last 10 years. Is there— I mean, reading, I feel like hasn't changed much. But I'm curious to know, yeah, just what are your observations happening right now in the industry of books?

Because I know that whenever I read any statistics about reading, it seems like reading is kind of at a decline, but I still keep seeing books. I mean, I get so stressed out because there's just always more books that I feel like I need to buy, and there's more books that are coming out all the time. Yeah.

You can't possibly read them all. So it seems like there's a thriving market within like specifically like graphic design books. But I'm curious from your point of view, what are your, what's your overall sentiments around publishing and books in the year 2025?

Matt Avery [20:35]

Yeah, it's like, on the one hand, things are sort of like amazingly unchanged, with the book. I mean, people have been predicting, all kinds of big changes for publishing for a long time. Like there was a point where people thought like CD-ROMs were gonna like replace books, which is funny to think about now, or would be like a big part of publishing. But of course, it's just like one of those little blips on. Technology that was like subsumed by bigger things.

And I mean things have— I don't know, things have changed, but they're still the same. I mean, ebooks are definitely like a big thing with publishing but they haven't like taken away the printed book. They kind of like coexist, the way books are kind of sold and discovered has changed. But even that feels like more like I mean, it affects our work, but it's sort of like a secondary or tertiary consideration.

It doesn't like the, like the book itself is still kind of, sort of doesn't care if it's like being marketed on TikTok or—

Do things. But I mean, I think like, as far as people always wonder, what is there something that's going to come along that really changes reading, that takes people away from print reading? And who can predict the future, right? I might— at some point I realized, whatever that thing is, it doesn't exist now. It's gonna— like, we don't see it coming. Someone is either gonna invent it in 5 years, or maybe they're inventing it right now and it just hasn't been rolled out.

So it's not that I don't think nothing will ever replace print, but I just— we haven't encountered it yet.

So I'm happy to kind of go down with the ship with print at this point, just happy to keep working on them as long as I can. But See, I had another thought. I mean, as far as, I guess as far as like my work has changed, yes and no. I remember when I was younger, I would get really excited about trying out like new typefaces all the time, and that was—

And, I still love seeing and using new type, but maybe I'm— maybe it's just like middle age. But at this point, I kind of have my— I'm not like in a Massimo Vignelli stage, but I kind of have like my settings that I like, that I feel like I can't— I almost can't improve upon. And I kind of want to use those for my default text and, change everything around it, like yeah, the page design, the display typography.

But I'm happy to use like a couple typefaces like 50 to 80% of the time that I know like how to use. It takes— I didn't, you know sorry if I'm going off on like a rabbit trail here, but so many times like a book typeface looks really promising and then I start using it and then I find it's they can work well, but it just takes a lot more work to get it to set well.

Or there's just like a couple, like spacing things or characters that interact in a way that I find like awkward or cumbersome to manage. And then I'm like I'm going to go back to, my good old trusty yeah, settings. So.

Christian Solorzano [24:40]

There is a level of maturity that I notice sometimes with designers when you begin to see them use less and less typefaces in their work. And to me, that always signals that they've reached a higher plane where— Yeah, I've gotten to know Rick Valicenti quite well over the last, 2 years. And he's confessed to me that he only uses one font for everything. That's it.

Matt Avery [25:17]

Yeah. And why not?

Christian Solorzano [25:20]

It works and it communicates and it lets everything else shine. It doesn't get in the way of anything else? So, I mean, not trying to, but I can appreciate when I see that.

Matt Avery [25:36]

Yeah. Yeah it's just, I guess it's like, I have my limitations and I feel like a couple typefaces, I know how to use them and like I kind of have my H and J set up and I feel like this is as good as Matt can do.

So let's like use this as a building block and then whatever else that needs to, if people are hiring me for like a custom book design, I need to give them like a design that is like responds to, yeah, the book, or is at least, bespoke enough that it's like taking into account all the like variables and elements.

Christian Solorzano [26:26]

So if you can't— if you could turn a typeface into a person, into a human, what typeface would it be? And let's say if you can take a typeface out to dinner, what would it be and where would you take them to?

Matt Avery [26:46]

Oh, okay. I think, one typeface that I really love that I don't have, I know there's like great Apologies to all the amazing type designers out there. There's like not like a, like a kind of a new digital version of it that I really love that I can get to work for me, at least with my own limitations, let's say. But like Fournier is like I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right.

That typeface is one I've just, I just always love seeing on the page, but I can't I would use it more if I Felt like I could use it well, or if I had the right version of it. So yeah, that would take that out for a dinner. And I would I think it would be, considering the someone coming from, that century, I would take them out for like a jibarito sandwich in Chicago because that would be like probably like shocking for them. Maybe not.

I don't know. You get their reaction. French cuisine is like, one of the pinnacles of civilization. So they need some good Chicago food. See what happens. Cool.

Christian Solorzano [28:05]

I love it. That's the first time I've ever asked that question.

Matt Avery [28:07]

Yeah, that's a good one. You should keep it.

Christian Solorzano [28:10]

So are there, and when it comes to layout design, what are your, what are, what are the things that you obsess over? I feel like every designer has like their the things that they obsess over. For you, what is it? Is it, is it justification? Is it rags? Is it, what is it?

Matt Avery [28:35]

Yeah. I mean, it's yeah, justification a little bit. I don't get too crazy with regs. I'm not too doctrinaire about that per se, but, it needs like some attention. But yeah, I would just say like the text page in general, like I do kind of like the texture of it and how type sits on the page. That's in the session, although, like I said, I do kind of rely on some things that I feel like I have dialed in.

And then I guess I obsess about kind of the dynamics of the page. If it's, if you're combining like text and image, then like every page is like another kind of, or every spread is like kind of another composition to resolve like within the system of the, book design. So yeah, I think, I mean, most designers are kind of like type obsessed to some degree, but I think, being a book designer gives you like just the opportunity to go like even crazier with that obsession.

So it's one of the pleasures of being a book designer, I guess.

Christian Solorzano [30:04]

So walk us through like a typical book design project. So you get, how does it work? Like someone reaches out to you and says, I'm working on a book. Here's the title. What happens after that? Or like, how does it work?

Matt Avery [30:23]

Yeah. Well, there's kind of like, for my book work, there's kind of like 2 things people come to me for. It's like a total book design or it's like a standalone book cover.

And, I mean, obviously the total book design also has a cover, but so those are like, for me, they're kind of like 2 very different modes of working though. Like a standalone book cover is kind of, it's like it does kind of exist outside this history of like book publishing that goes back centuries or whatever.

It's more like, you can think of it as like a mini poster or, it has more in common with like that or like a record design or other things than like kind of like book design in terms of working on book interiors.

So for something like that, it's kind of like a quicker, smaller job, I guess. Where someone gives me like a design brief, usually like kind of a one-page thing. They give me some maybe comps, in terms of like, this is where, what you might call like a mood board or something where they're like, these are just kind of examples of what we're striving for in terms of tone or maybe like within the book marketplace, like if there's like a genre or something.

And then they will usually have at least some, tentative, early ideas on what to consider, exploring in the design, maybe, or sometimes, really explicit, please use this image. Usually there's, some openness to not using, an image that the author found and loved or something.

But there could be something provided like really specific like that to consider using. And then, so I, get back to them kind of like with my real quick initial thoughts on the brief to kind of confirm like, hey, you know what, this direction sounds good. I'm gonna go with that just to let them know.

Or maybe more open-ended, I might also explore these things, or just and then I just kind of go off and do my thing and I don't— not often like in touch a lot until I'm ready to show them something.

So, and that's when like the back and forth begins. But so I go off and do kind of the usual designer, I guess, process, like brainstorming sketching, developing ideas. Developing the concepts. And then, sometimes people like see something and they're like, great, let's go with it. You know how it is. I mean, it's like it can be as short or as drawn out of a process as, circumstances or the project allows or demands for.

And then book design is there's a, usually they have like a target page count. So they're like, we want this to be, 200 and whatever pages. And they have— they do what's called like a cast-off where they make a projection based on the amount of text, the number of images.

So they're kind of— they kind of have like a little formula, like how much— how many pages they expect. To be taken up by 80 images. Maybe on average they take up half a page. And it can be like a little tricky to like project all that like accurately, but it gives you like a goal. And then so usually I start by, usually they have like suggested like words per page. And that's like my starting point.

I'll start with like kind of the text page, kind of what I see like the most fundamental part of it, the text page type size for a regular page. And then I kind of work from inside out. So once I established those like basics the overall page design, then I start coming around to like display elements that are establishing maybe a little bit more of like the tone or feeling of the book.

And then so often I'll do like the title page last because I've kind of like— I have enough kind of like precedence that I know like at that point the design has like a clear direction.

And then, and then ideally the covers last, if I'm doing the interior and I can, use like the— bring the typography on the COVID in the interior like into harmony. I mean, I don't think they need to match exactly, but at least, you know what's going on in the interior, so you can either make it contrast or match well. It doesn't always work like that on the timeline.

A lot of times people want covers well in advance, for All their planning and catalogs and like sales meetings. Like people want the covers like way in advance of the book. And, before you've had time to like think about how the inside of the book is going to look. Usually we can figure that out. So yeah, does that make sense as far as like an overview, nitty-gritty?

Christian Solorzano [36:20]

Yeah, it makes sense. And a follow-up question to that is when you're working on a book, obviously it's a cover of the book and it matters.

And in a lot of digital work or advertising, for example, there tends to be a huge emphasis on market research and choosing the right type of layout that will yield better sales or whatever. Is that also taken into consideration with like the work, the projects that you work on? Is there, can you say like, all right, if the COVID is this color, it'll be more likely to draw these kinds of people, or is that kind of irrelevant for the kind of books that you're working on?

Matt Avery [37:08]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's definitely all of that like enters in. I feel like with publishing, there's less like, I don't think people do focus groups per se. They kind of do— they talk to sales reps that go into bookstores, and they— so it's kind of like word of mouth or hearsay. I feel like that kind of, knowledge seeking about how people are going to respond to different book covers.

And I feel like there's a lot of rules of thumb and like myths about that just like hang around forever about like what works and what doesn't. People like green is like a hardcover book coverage for some reason. I don't know if that like carries over to other, things with, marketing and advertising. I'm always trying to use purple, not to intentionally like aggravate people, but like it's, for some reason people are like, they don't see purple ever working.

And so, I mean, certainly if you put purple and green together, that's like a weird color combination. It's gonna be like maybe kind of in your face, like maybe in a good way, but, or, people might just think of Barney. But so, yeah, people want, feel like, oh, like it's great to have like color, colorful image, it's gonna get people's eye, or having people like on the COVID People are naturally drawn to pictures of people, I guess. So there's weird—

I feel like it's like kind of like based on nothing except like publishing lore, about work. I don't— like, no, I— has anyone— I really want to say sometimes, anyone ever like tested these ideas that we like hold so sacrosanct and I don't know, maybe people have and I just don't know.

Christian Solorzano [39:13]

But, and it also just feels so like subjective as well because I always, I always share this story, but with my with my students, I often come to them with work that I love as like, here's some examples of good work. And often their reaction is like, I don't like it. That's— and then part of me is like, well, they're right. If they don't like it, then it doesn't matter what I think? They're not responding to it positively. So—

I feel like having those kind of interactions with people sometimes just makes me realize how subjective and like arbitrary some of our decisions are.

Matt Avery [40:08]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think with book covers that really holds up, it like comes down to like the decision makers and kind of their personal reactions to things. So, if you have like, if you've worked with someone for a while, you kind of get a sense for that. But there's been times where I'm like just utterly confounded. I've worked with people for years and I have like no idea how you're going to react to this. Like never, like. Are we even seeing the same colors?

I don't know. Do we agree what blue is? But yeah, it's a tough, nut to crack. You just never know. It's back when I had in-person meetings, I felt like so much was on the line. I'd take in a stack of covers into the meeting and it's like, I have no idea how anyone's gonna respond to anything. And the fate of the next 2 weeks, really hangs in the balance. It's gonna— things are gonna be smooth or bumpy or usually somewhere in between.

And I always had trouble, some ideas about, certain genres were, really clear in some of my colleagues' minds, and I could just never get it. I would try so hard, okay, I would think, okay, I've nailed, the big biography look. This is exactly what they want. And then they're like, they would say no categorically. It's so wrong. I'm like, I have, I have no idea, what and they can't tell me, which is, it's not their job to do the design.

So it would be helpful if they could, express it. But.

Christian Solorzano [41:49]

One of my favorite covers that I've seen by you on your site is the Cyber Formalism book from 2018. Yeah, it's simple, but it's smart and it just feels like very strategic. Like it's, it, someone that gets it will get it?

Matt Avery [42:14]

Yeah. No, thanks. Cause that is kind of one of my personal favorites. So always nice that not just, in my own little universe resonates with someone else.

Christian Solorzano [42:29]

That's cool. Well, a lot of, a lot of the— and I live in Oak Park and in Oak Park up until I think last year, there was a bookstore called a Book Table. It was my favorite bookstore. And looking through your sites, a lot of these books I would see there all the time.

Matt Avery [42:47]

Oh, really? Okay.

Christian Solorzano [42:49]

It's nice to be like, oh, I remember that book. I didn't know that, Matt made it. So it's—

Matt Avery [42:54]

Oh yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, no, it's always like a little, like seeing something you worked on or like maybe a friend has worked on, like you see it like out in the world.

Christian Solorzano [43:07]

It's like they haven't been lying this whole time.

Matt Avery [43:10]

They're good for you.

Christian Solorzano [43:10]

They actually made it.

Matt Avery [43:12]

It's real. Exactly. It's like, it's only existed in my head or like the copy I got, but it still feels like this kind of yeah. Private activity. So then you see like out in the world and it's like, yeah, it's out there doing its thing.

Christian Solorzano [43:28]

So I want to talk a little bit about, and so in addition to this work, I've also discovered that you also do art and particularly collages. You call them photographs. Am I— is that— that's correct, right?

Matt Avery [43:53]

Yeah. So yeah, I did. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [43:58]

So can you talk to us about some of these? Because they're so beautiful and they're kind of tucked away. It took me, it took me a while to actually find this website of yours, which is avery.net.

Matt Avery [44:12]

Yeah, well, thanks. Yeah, that's I don't know, it's like, it's BS, I guess, but like a friend told me like, oh yeah, you should separate your art design or whatever if you want, to— it's, whatever. But yeah, it's like Barry in his talk talked about one of his recommendations was like, keep doing your personal work.

And when he said that, I was like, okay, I got to start again. Because that was one thing that was always like a nice— it's funny. It's like we're creative all day. I mean, not all day. So much of the day is email and stuff. But it's like our kind of core skill that we're doing at our jobs, right? Like being creative. But you still feel like you need a, another creative outlet for like something slightly different.

So yeah, I think, one thing that I think when I started, one motivation was as much as I like working with type and like I love a book that has no images, like On the interior, just pure text. I think that's, like if you can get like a decent text setting for a beautiful book cover, no image, like that's, a great type of book. But then I kind of— Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [45:53]

I want to add there is, there is a point where you set really beautiful type and the type itself becomes the image. It becomes, it becomes an object. Like it becomes a, there's nothing more beautiful than like holding a page or like, for example, when you're in InDesign and you have your text laid out and you zoom out a lot where all the lines just become like black strips.

Matt Avery [46:17]

Right. It just becomes abstract.

Christian Solorzano [46:19]

Yeah. You're, that's such a nice block of type. So, yes.

Matt Avery [46:23]

Totally. Yeah. One designer that I like a lot from the UK, David Pearson, that's his, I think social media handle is like Type as Image. And I think, he's like making the same point that you're making. And he's done a lot of great typographic work in the past. And yeah, so like the kind of like art making on the side, it was like, okay, this is like a chance to work with like pure image and like no words.

And it was just something I started doing in the evenings to relax and, it's like one of those things I kind of pick up and put down. And but I've really been feeling the lack of it the last year, so I want to restart it. I think for a while I was good about saying to like the folks at home, I'd have like kind of a regular like studio night. This was like inspired by some other friends.

They're like, they started having a studio night, okay, this is my night. I'm going to work on this thing, and you kind of protect that space, and people know that you're prioritizing that, and you're kind of like a get-out-of-jail-free card from your normal, obligations. And so that way it's kind of fair to everyone. You're not like skipping out on your obligations, but you're also— you're getting some balance and doing this thing that you love.

So, but then like the last year, work just became like overwhelming, and I had to cut out a lot of things. So, but I'm hoping to restart it. So like the title Photographic, I was trying to— I feel like collage is like kind of having a moment. It's kind of popular, which I think is great. It's like so accessible. It's like punk rock. Like you can learn 3 chords and like just, it's like really easy to get into and express yourself.

But I've always also been like a fan of photography, and I had like an interest in kind of like framing things in terms— in more of like a photographic tradition. But yeah, I don't know if I've ever done it like convincingly to anyone. I think I've tried to tell people like, oh, it's photography. It's like I'm doing like a photo montage. And they're kind of like, they didn't really buy it. They're like, it's collage. You know what? Who are you kidding?

But, even if it only exists in my head, I kind of like that framework in terms of thinking it in like a photographic space. And I mean, I do stick to working with pretty much like pure photography that I don't really let in like letterforms too much. There's stuff that like slips in a little bit and I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't mind, but it's usually like really tiny little, page numbers or little lines here and there.

But so another thing that was— I really enjoyed about it was just getting off the computer and working with stuff by hand. That was and so, and then recently I've thought, I would like to bring like a digital like layer into it. And then but I need to find a way to do that doesn't like suck the joy out of it because it's kind of a bummer to like jump back on the computer when I'm having my little studio night. So I don't know. We'll see.

Yeah. Need to get back into it.

Christian Solorzano [50:04]

So today, like what, when you're not Working, what are, what are, when, well, actually the question that I want to ask is, when are you happiest? What are some of the most, creatively fulfilling moments? What are the, what are the ingredients that need to be in place in order for you to feel, creatively fulfilled?

Matt Avery [50:32]

Yeah, I think the most kind of exciting part is like when you have the idea, and I make that little thumbnail sketch and I'm like, I have that feeling like this is gonna work. I mean, it's partly like a feeling of relief, because it's like that fear of the blank canvas. I'm like, oh my God, what if I can't do it this time?

Christian Solorzano [50:56]

Yeah.

Matt Avery [50:57]

But it's that's like really exciting. And then sometimes when I get to the point where I need to flesh it out, I'm like this is the hard part?

Christian Solorzano [51:07]

Yeah.

Matt Avery [51:08]

Actually bringing it to life. So I think that's always the— that's like a— that's a high point. And then, I mean, sometimes if I do, if things like really click together, like in the design process, that does feel good. When you see something on your screen or printed out that you feel like, okay, I did, I kind of closed the loop I got from the sketch to like a thing.

And if there's something there that kind of gives me that, I don't know, we need a word for this, but it's that like little like hit of endorphins or something. It's like kind of an emotional response where like, yes, like.

I kind of like it, at least for a moment. Maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow, but that is like, I think we're chasing that all the time, those little moments. It gives you that motivation to struggle through the dead ends and whatever else is bogging down the work.

I do like to like change the scenery a little bit when I'm in that brainstorming mode, like just going to like a coffee shop or something. Yeah, I feel like I've stepped away from my everything I need to do that day and just let myself like really enjoy that moment as much as possible. So.

Christian Solorzano [52:38]

What are your do you have any office essentials? Like what do you what do you surround yourself with? Like right now you're in this beautiful space. I could only see your background, but you have like multiple shelves. You have 4 shelves of just like books. But what's the other, what is the other part? What's the other side?

Like what are the things that you, that you feel like you wouldn't be able to get work without, like what do you, what do you, what do you carry with you or? What are those essentials?

Matt Avery [53:11]

Good question. I mean, I don't know. I have like, let's see, I have a good answer. I mean, I like write stuff on like paper, like all over the place. So I don't use like fancy pens or anything. I just but I have to have like a pen and paper around just I mean, this is mundane, but like just for to-do lists, if I do it a to-do list on the computer just disappears and it's like I totally forget about it.

I have to have it like, yeah, staring at me in the face all the time. I do like to get my ideas down with pen and paper. They're hideous. Like no one— I would— I don't like to show them to people because I'm not— I haven't kept up the practice of drawing. So it's just, it's like a form of note-taking.

It's like I do it as quickly as possible and so it looks like chicken scratch, but it's like I just Trying to get the idea, before I forget it, down on the paper. And I don't know, I mean, I have like kind of treasured objects on my desk, I guess, that it's like nice to have around me. So I can show you some of that, I guess. But just for fun, I have these like little collection of rainbow mugs.

That I would find in like just stores. But the supply kind of dried up. They used to come with flowers, I think. Like a bouquet of flowers. It was like a flower company. And then, so I have like 5 or 6 of them. And then, so, but this is really sweet. My daughter knew that I looked for them, but I was having trouble finding them. So she had like an after-school like clay club.

And so she made like a rainbow mug because I couldn't find any more. So this is like my like pen holder. By my desk. So yeah, I guess like a lot of people have like little fun objects like that.

Christian Solorzano [55:06]

Okay. So like vessels, you're into vessels of some kind?

Matt Avery [55:12]

Yeah. Yeah. Things that like I can use, but also have like some, I guess like emotional quality, comfort objects, I guess. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [55:24]

I've been, I've been a few years ago, I read somewhere, and I should find the source, but it was about how you can learn a lot about a person by going through their trash. And that will tell you more about that person's values than anything that they could ever say to you.

And I wouldn't go to the extreme of going through a person's trash, but I've been wanting to start a project where I invite designers to, or just creatives in general, to show us what their workspace looks like. Totally, no, don't clean it up. Don't put the little plant right there on the corner.

Matt Avery [56:14]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mine is like fairly messy. But, it's like, right, I keep like the backdrop, sort of picked up because I know it's going to be on a meeting or something. But no, that's true. That's a good like analog, like trash to like actual working conditions before like the photo shoot arrives. First time thinking like, oh my God, what's in my trash right now? Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [56:46]

So given that, so given that you work a lot in publishing, what do you, what do you read for? What's your, what do you indulge in as a, as a, as someone being on the other side? Like when you're not creating the content, when you're not creating the work, what are you consuming? Like what pulls your attention when you're at the bookstore?

Matt Avery [57:07]

I mean, definitely, of course, like predictably, like art and photo books. Yeah. So yeah, at some point, like when I left college, I would buy novels, that I'd read, and it was that kind of thing where I wanted to remember that I'd read the book and have it on my shelf.

And then, I had some friends that kind of got me into like the library club where they're, they would just check out books to read and not, I kind of converted to that at some point, and now I have not answering your question very directly here, but like books, like novels, I will use the library and not necessarily buy them. I mean, I will buy them like on spur of the moment, but not necessarily.

But with art and photo books, I feel like you interact with them in a different way, right? You, read as much or as little as you want.

I mean, a visual book, I think it's okay personally not to read like every essay in the book. Not that anyone needs my permission, but like you're kind of there for, the images that are being reproduced, right? That's kind of the main show. And then you read as much as you're interested in. So. As far as buying books, I do kind of lean towards that because you can pick them up again.

I have photo books that I'll come back to time and time again because it's like, continues to be like a renewing experience. And then I guess I'm just not fast enough a reader to be a rereader. I feel like it takes me long enough to get through a book that I want to read a new book every time.

So, but I really like reading fiction. For nonfiction, I'll read like kind of nature stuff. I see I'm reading a book by Charles Bowden right now called Street Sign Chicago. Came out in the '80s or '90s. It's like a pretty good Chicago book. He was maybe like underknown, maybe, but I worked on a series of his books a few years ago and really liked his writing. So then when I found that book in a bookstore, like a few weeks ago, I picked it up.

So I'm reading that. I have an art book called Fragmentary Forms. It's actually about collage. It's kind of a history of collage, like a survey. And I recently listened to a book called Treeline about like northern forests, like in Canada and Siberia. So, being in nature, reading about nature, that's a great, kind of rejuvenating thing.

Christian Solorzano [60:10]

And that's another thing that I learned about you when you spoke at Cold Style a few weeks ago. In the bio that you sent over, you mentioned that you volunteer with Openlands as a tree keeper. What does that mean? Can you explain to us?

Matt Avery [60:30]

Yeah. So along with my art practice, it's kind of been lapsed. I haven't had or found the time to like volunteer, but I did a, I did something with them like a year ago and my like little project for our community garden. But I kind of miss all my fellow volunteers for sure. But anyway, so it's Openlands is like a conservation group in our region, like not just Chicago, but, and they do a variety of things. But one thing they have is this Treekeeper program.

And basically it's like you take like 8 classes or something, and then you get certified to do a certain level of like tree volunteer work that, you can't usually do just as like a resident of Chicago. You can't— I mean, people do it, but you're not supposed to just go out, start like trimming your neighbor's tree or whatever, like in the parkway. So, but through Openlands, they give you like training to like plant and prune trees.

And then, it's all through them, through their like official events. But then you can— You're trained to do, well, yeah, like tree pruning, for example. That's kind of like a favorite of mine. And you can— it's like just a chance to work with plants and do something that's— do your volunteer thing and be outside. And as you would imagine, lots of like earthy kind of people do it. So they're like nice people to be around.

I think the nice thing with tree pruning is like you can appreciate it as like a creative person. I mean, I guess it's not hard to imagine, right? Like creating like a bonsai tree or something is like kind of a work of art, right? There's like a craft and art to it.

And so when you're like trying to work on a tree and doing some pruning work, you still have that kind of you're still kind of responding to something in a similar way where— so there's different guidelines for pruning a tree, and like one of them is actually to make it look beautiful or to like train it towards its natural form.

And the idea is not to do this like at the expense of the tree, to force some kind of like outside, idea of beauty onto the tree. But the idea is that beauty is actually like a good kind of guidepost for like achieving like symmetry and balance in the natural structure of the tree so that it's healthy.

So the goal is like a healthy tree, not like a tree that looks pretty, in your landscape or whatever, but the kind of striving for, we all have like kind of an innate sense of what a beautiful plant looks like. And if you kind of follow that, just through like living in the world and being in nature. So that's kind of like a somewhat trustworthy rule along with some other kind of more specific guidelines.

So I actually, I feel like there's not— it kind of connects in a certain way to, looking at the world as an artist or designer. Who doesn't love trees? I mean, they're, yeah, charismatic plants in our landscape. So.

Christian Solorzano [64:08]

Yeah. The other day on my block, there was there was one of those big trucks with like the chipper in the back.

And there was a woman and she was like measuring this tree and I was like, oh man, I hope they don't like cut this tree down because I'm gonna be so pissed off because it was like such a huge tree. But they just had to like trim like apparently like a part of the branch that was potentially going to fall onto a car or something.

Matt Avery [64:35]

But yeah, so they were— that's good. Yeah. It's like, I know it's alarming when you see them out there and be like, how much of this tree are they taking? Are they just doing a little work on it or? Well, you're lucky in Oak Park. The city itself is like a certified arboretum. So, which is, I think, not like your standard kind of like, I don't think many cities can make that claim.

Christian Solorzano [65:04]

So, do you do any bonsai? Do you have any, or is that—

Matt Avery [65:11]

I'm tempted, I But it's like the kind of thing where like, I can't, can I take on one more thing? Like it would, I mean, I guess once you kind of got it going, I wouldn't be like daily work necessarily, maybe just a little watering.

Christian Solorzano [65:26]

But so I like that you were, that you're, that we're talking about trees because I love trees and I am a bonsai collector.

Matt Avery [65:36]

And really, that's awesome.

Christian Solorzano [65:38]

And there's a really awesome place in Wheaton, Illinois called BC Bonsai.

Matt Avery [65:48]

They have a— Mine was down.

Christian Solorzano [65:49]

They don't have the prettiest website. They actually have like the opposite of a pretty website. Their website is just like HTML, like pure HTML.

Matt Avery [65:58]

That kind of makes me trust them more, that they're like—

Christian Solorzano [66:02]

Trust them more because it's run by a couple, like a man and a woman, and they're elderly people and they design and maintain the website. And I'm just like really impressed because I've like offered to help them in the past and they're like, no, like it's fine. Like people come to us and, it's fine.

And then I told myself like, who am I to tell these people that are like amazing at what they're doing that like they need me? Like they're fine. Like I don't need to save them.

Matt Avery [66:39]

But yeah, no, I know, not— it's like, yeah, no, I mean, both things are true. It's like they sort of don't like need any of us, but, you know but it's like, it's cool that you offered because, yeah, it's like you do— like, we all have that impulse where you're like, oh, I kind of, I would love to like intervene and like kind of help you out here. But no, I definitely, I got to check them out.

So I think when I'm ready, I'm going to take on the bonsai project.

Christian Solorzano [67:13]

And it's not a very time-consuming thing. Like really, you get a tree and you dedicate, you water it once a week and then you prune it once every 3 months. And that's about it. And you just monitor that it that it's doing well, and that's it. And then if you want to get into styling, then that's when you learn about wiring.

And one of the things that I learned this weekend was with a tree, the bottom branches should be giving the impression that they're welcoming you to hug you. I love it. And the tip of the tree should be like as if it's bowing to you so that when you're facing the tree, it looks like it's an embrace with a bow. And that's like the Japanese, like that's like the Japanese perspective on like the front of a tree, which I thought was pretty cool.

Matt Avery [68:23]

That's beautiful. I love it. Yeah. We need more of that just everywhere. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [68:30]

And then the other thing is when I went there this weekend, I did a workshop and there was probably like 7, 8 other people there. And towards the— at the end of the workshop, there's a guy there and he said like, hey, you're Christian from the Design Club, right? And I'm like, yeah, it's me. And we introduced like, he introduced himself and I'm like, oh, I know who you are now. So there's another designer that is also into bonsai.

So, okay, I may start like a group Instagram chat and yeah, maybe the 3 of us can head over there one day and take a class or something.

Matt Avery [69:06]

Let's do it. I would love that. Yeah. So how many bonsai do you have? You said you had a question.

Christian Solorzano [69:11]

Yeah, I have 6 and I but I've I don't want to say killed, but there's been 4 that have died under my watch.

Matt Avery [69:22]

Yeah. I mean, if you like grow plants, like you have to accept that that's going to happen, right? Like whether it's houseplants or plants outside. So, okay. You're inspiring me.

Christian Solorzano [69:35]

So anyway, so this that was too much talking about me. So let's get back to you.

Matt Avery [69:41]

No, okay. No, I'm happy to listen to you talk about bonsai all day. Yeah, go ahead.

Christian Solorzano [69:47]

So we're almost at time, but before we wrap up, I want to ask you what's inspiring you lately, and is there anything that you're either listening to or reading that you want to share? And then the third question is anything that we should look forward to seeing you, release, whether it's a personal project or a book. So First question, what's inspiring you lately?

Matt Avery [70:12]

What's inspiring me lately? Well, I don't know, this is maybe too expected, but I did go I tried to make time to, go see museums and galleries, of course. And I kind of, I'll be like really intentional about it and go during the week and kind of be like, okay, I need like a mental health day. I need to like kind of reset. And there was a gallery of like drawings at the Art Institute. That was really great. I can't remember what the show was called.

But it was, I guess, at that moment I was there, it was a reminder that just like the simplest mark and gesture can be perfect. Kind of like a bonsai. So that was great. Oh geez, let me see if I can find— I just went to the Music Box last night with a friend. I'm trying to look up the name of the— it was Chris and Heather's 16. Yeah. Millimeter big screen blowout.

And I just kind of went like kind of on a whim, like at the suggestion of my friend. And just, I was like, you're into this, I know it'll be good. So it was like a collection of vintage commercials, like a lot of them kind of before our time. So they're so they seem so awkward and like naive and then like footage of like old music, a lot of people that at least I wasn't familiar with.

I mean, I'm a music lover, but like I don't go as deep as some people, I guess. But and yeah, so that was like a great, being in the theater is— I feel like I need more of that. I watched like a great film the other day on Criterion. And it was a good experience. But I remember at the end thinking like, I wish I'd been in the theater for this because it's like, it's a different experience.

It's hard to not, I'm still at home where it's like the normal distractions or whatever. It's not when you're in the theater. It's like that black box effect. The world really kind of falls away. Yeah. So.

Christian Solorzano [72:48]

Yeah. So as a music lover, what do you listen to?

Matt Avery [72:51]

Kind of like what you would expect, like a middle-aged white guy that likes indie rock, kind of. But I'll give you some like favorites, I guess. I really love Eleanor Friedberger. Kind of, I guess she's like singer-songwriter. But she, I mean, she does like stuff in a rock format too. She was in this band called the Fiery Francis with her brother, and they were like amazing.

And I mean, she definitely has like, I think, like a good following, but I feel like she should be bigger than she is. She's just like so freaking good. There's a band called Broncho from Oklahoma. They're kind of— I feel like they're in the same camp, like they should be bigger than they are. But I mean, I do like have like a, more eclectic listening too. I really love like design music.

When I'm listening to that, I feel like when I'm actually listening to it, I always have the feeling like, this is really the best music. Why do I even like listen to anything else? Yeah. Yeah, those are some things.

Christian Solorzano [74:09]

Yeah, I love— are you familiar with Radio Garden, the website?

Matt Avery [74:16]

Oh, no. Is that a—

Christian Solorzano [74:20]

It's like a Google Maps type of experience where you can browse the globe and pinpoint any part of the world and listen to that radio station that's in that place.

Matt Avery [74:32]

Wow. That's cool.

Christian Solorzano [74:35]

And Brazilian, or like just any kind of world music to me, I always tell myself like, this is real music. Like it has everything. Like it has instruments that I've never heard of. Like it's so visceral. It's like just joyful. And yeah, it's like just pure like music.

Matt Avery [74:56]

Yeah. No, that, yeah, that sounds like a great way to like break out of the rut?

Christian Solorzano [75:01]

Yeah.

Matt Avery [75:01]

I'll have to check that out. Cool.

Christian Solorzano [75:05]

So last question is Chicago. What are some of your Chicago places you like to frequent? Music Box, you mentioned, is there anything at any other place that you, that someone could expect to find you at, like when you're, when you're not working?

Matt Avery [75:24]

Yeah, well, I usually, like most days I'll go for a run and I usually go up on the Bloomingdale Trail. It's like a half a mile from my house, so like I can get up there and just like run uninterrupted as far as like traffic. Don't have to worry about cars blowing red lights or what have you. And that's like a really beautiful spot. It's, again, talking about nature, but it's like I could run up and down the trail like multiple times.

I do if I'm doing a long run, kind of near Palmer Square, which is like a nice park again with a lot of trees. I've always lived far from the lake, which I feel like is a— pretty much like on the northwest side, and it's just go due east, which is like a traffic nightmare. But—

I feel like that's the one thing if I could redo in Chicago is I wish I'd spent a few years really close to the lakefront. I used to have a bike commute where I'd be on the lakefront a lot, so I guess I got a pretty good dose during those years. But yeah, the Arboretum is nice. I don't get out there too much because it's a little bit of a haul.

Garfield Park Conservatory. I mean, not like exactly a secret, but great to go in the winter when it's like bitter cold out and go into like the tropical room.

Christian Solorzano [76:58]

Excellent. Well, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. And we really need to figure out a time to talk trees. And I would love to see if there's any additional way to do something together again with the Chicago Graphic Design Club.

Matt Avery [77:23]

Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. All the above.

Christian Solorzano [77:27]

Okay. Sounds good. And if people want to get in contact with you, I will include your contact information in the description for this episode. And how do you personally prefer to be contacted? Email, Instagram? What's the easiest way?

Matt Avery [77:44]

Yeah, it all works. Like sometimes I don't see things on Instagram. Like I guess if we're not, apparently if we're not like mutually following each other on Instagram, then like the messages go into like some kind of like spam filter. So I always feel bad when I don't see someone's message until like 3 months later. So. So I guess email is the best. And, my website has like a form that'll email me or I'm just at matt@monograph.studio. Okay, cool. My email address.

Christian Solorzano [78:17]

And you have another Instagram called matt_and_paste.

Matt Avery [78:21]

Yep. That's my sort of dormant, art Instagram, but hopefully yeah, I almost made something the other night and then my God, work overtook me once again. But I got, I got like an idea of like something I can throw together quickly. So hopefully I'll be doing that again soon. So thanks for plugging that. Cool.

Christian Solorzano [78:48]

Awesome, man. Well, thanks again and we will keep in touch.

Matt Avery [78:51]

Sounds good. Until next time. Cool.

Christian Solorzano [78:55]

Thank you so much for sticking around till the end. As mentioned at the beginning, if you enjoyed the show, please leave us a rating wherever you listen. Thank you, and we'll talk to you soon.