Christian Solorzano [00:05]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club dedicated to bringing you conversations with Chicago's creative leaders. On this podcast, we'll explore the craft, theory, and practice of graphic design, plus discuss bold ideas that push the boundaries of what's possible and ways in which we can create a more thoughtful and inclusive community. To learn more about us, visit our website at www.chicagographicdesign.club or find us on social media. Special thanks to the Chicago band Eighties Slang for our theme music.

Jonathan Sangster [00:45]

Hello, I am today's host.

Christian Solorzano [00:57]

Christian Solorzano, and today I'm speaking with Jonathan Sangster and KT Duffy, founders of Mx Studio, described as an interdisciplinary studio specializing in visual communication, branding, and web developments. Their manifesto says, we are digital gremlins and cyber sailors. We're kittens with big eyes and puppies with a keen sense of smell. We're scumbags and bandits. We're idealists and realists. We're sleight of hand and a binding spell. We're tailors, crafters, cobblers, and fighters. We fall asleep queer and cuddly, and we wake up and choose violence.

Jonathan is a designer, artist, and photographer and lecturer at the School of the Art Institute, and KT Duffy is an artist, designer, developer, organizer, writer, and we're happy to have the both of you here today. So I want to learn about how the two of you've met and what's that origin story like.

Jonathan Sangster [01:56]

I was an hour late for a meeting with Jay, was it like 5 years ago? Yeah, I invited Jay to do a visiting artist program when I was at NEIU. And so they were going to be the visiting artists in the makerspace that I ran. And I didn't show up to the meeting. Jay was like wandering around trying to figure out the art department. And then I like saw them in the hallway and I was like, oh shit.

KT Duffy [02:26]

Yeah, and if there's one thing that most people know about me and particularly my students, it's that I'm a fan of promptness.

Christian Solorzano [02:36]

Yes.

Jonathan Sangster [02:37]

I am not. So, and that's maybe my privilege talking. But yeah, so we met then and then we just kind of— you were just doing a bunch of stuff on the internet and I was doing some stuff on the internet and we were just going to each other's things and—

KT Duffy [02:56]

And then I reached out to you and you invited me to come visit when you were doing the residency at Latitude.

Jonathan Sangster [03:04]

Oh yeah, that's right. How could I forget? Yeah, we had a really good studio visit and yeah, I just thought Jay was swell and, we're partners, but working together is like really lovely, which I'm sure we'll talk about more later.

KT Duffy [03:22]

Partners in life, partners in business, partners in making.

Christian Solorzano [03:26]

So MIX Studio is new and it was— I remember seeing, like hearing about it only a few months ago. Like it's been 6 months or so now, right?

Jonathan Sangster [03:36]

Yes. Yeah, it's pretty new.

Christian Solorzano [03:38]

So tell me a little bit about that and how that came about.

KT Duffy [03:41]

It was kind of organic, right? Because we, identified very quickly that we work really well together and bounce off each other creatively very well. And we'd worked together on a couple different projects, together, and, it kind of just made organic sense to create an entity for us to work under.

Jonathan Sangster [04:08]

Yeah, and I've always loved Jay's work. We're both really a fan of like— We're both big fans of breaking shit? And so I immediately recognized that in work. And that's like pretty much my process for creating my work that's like maybe more on the visual arts side. Because like breaking shit when you're a developer Isn't like recommended. So, I find, I try to find some ways to be, I do find some ways to be creative in that space, but just in a different way.

And that's, I think that's like how we really feed off of each other is that like you have a skillset that I don't necessarily have. And so we just kind of like make this really great team.

Christian Solorzano [04:50]

Yeah, 'cause that's one of the things that I did notice about both of your work is that it's very experimental. And even I'm looking at the artwork that you both have behind you, and it looks like it's just— is that something that the both of you made? Or, I mean, hearing the both of you talk about this and then looking at what's behind you, it feels very appropriate.

KT Duffy [05:10]

Oh, this is exciting. This is new work that KT, the techno genius, is working on. Okay, please explain this project.

Jonathan Sangster [05:19]

Yeah, it's so— it's just a really simple program that like generates forms. I use Processing to build it, and I'm able to export a PDF from this like generative program that, from a certain point I can like anticipate what shapes will be in there, or you know what the lines will do.

But a lot of it is like really chaos and chance, and I like literally click a button and it takes a PDF screenshot, and then from there I can make a DXF file, and then I send it to my plotter over here. This is a 24-inch plotter and just plots it for me. So I hang out and read while this robot makes things for me.

Christian Solorzano [06:03]

So let's go back in time. I want to understand or learn about— maybe upbringing is not the right word, but I want to know a little bit about what led the both of you to where you're— what you're currently doing today. Just going back to like, what was the first introduction to technology? Graphic design, typography, breaking stuff. Yeah, what was, what was that path like?

Jonathan Sangster [06:31]

Well, I think first it must be said that we're both Southsiders. That's an important detail.

Christian Solorzano [06:37]

I'm a Southsider myself, so I can relate.

Jonathan Sangster [06:41]

Sorry, why don't you go first and talk about your indoctrination into breaking shit?

KT Duffy [06:52]

Yeah, I think that, people that are familiar with my work, know that I'm not a huge fan of straight lines. I'm a huge fan of, going through, starting with a concept, going through the process, and, figuring out what's worth keeping and what's worth adjusting and playing with in the process, right? It's not a to Z for me at all, right? And my— like, the very beginning, right? We'll get to the technology part in a moment, right?

But my beginning was, being introduced to like hip-hop and graffiti by my friends when I was in high school. And that translated into a love of printmaking, which led to graphic design, right? This translation of language, letterforms, ideas, play with meaning and visual output. So my introduction to technology really started when I was in college, which was 1999. But also, this is another thing about me. Unlike KT, the techno genius, I'm not a huge fan of technology.

I make digital work, but by no means do I love it. I'm still a huge fan of experimenting and working, you, by hand, cutting things up, splicing things together. I'm a huge fan of, analog photography. But for me, I really like the idea of combining the two, right? Like everything analog and digital, I really like putting those two together. And I think that there's so many more opportunities for like cohesive and tangible play.

Like that's the way that I like to work and that's, the path that I enjoy being on.

Christian Solorzano [09:19]

Yeah. 'Cause there's a sense of organized chaos in some of your work. And I think it's, I agree. Like it's the perfect intersection between analog and then also you're obviously Showcasing your work majority online. So I like that. And what were some of your early influences? You mentioned hip-hop graffiti. Is there anything specifically that just— like, for me, it was, it was an Aerosmith album cover that sort of sealed the deal for me and made me want to become a graphic designer. What about you?

Was there anything like a turning point where you're like, all right, this is it?

KT Duffy [09:56]

Album covers for sure. Also comic books. I've been a huge fan of Marvel comic books, the different styles, like specifically, comic book lettering. And the amount of like feeling and expression, like it was always of interest to me as well, right? And for me, it's like it was all like building this foundation of meaning through letterforms building up to an expression, right? And then, through drawing and printmaking, right?

And then transitioning into focusing on typography through graphic design, that was all a very natural, visual evolution for me.

Christian Solorzano [10:51]

But I also think, looking at your work, there's a big element of storytelling. And I remember you gave a talk with our group 2 years ago now, and I remember you mentioned that you're reading all the time. And looking at your work, everything incorporates typography and more specifically words, and it's always— it seems like you're always communicating something.

So what's that relationship like? What— how do you go about choosing what you want to say? Because I get the idea, I get the impression from some of your work is that you're always responding to something that's contemporary, something that's happening, whether it's something political or something that's happening, in the world. So what's— yeah, just what's the relationship like with that, with those 2 worlds?

KT Duffy [11:45]

Well, and for me, and I've gotten into this discussion with a lot of designers over the years, there's a debate about whether I'm a designer at all.

Jonathan Sangster [11:58]

Simsies.

KT Duffy [12:01]

But for me, it's like, the professional side of design and the personal side of design are, kind of the same thing. It's like you're using tools to say something, to elaborate on something, to respond to something, right? And just because, it's like we live in this, capitalist hellscape, but at the same time, it's like if you're using that to make money, it's like, great, fine, that's the tool that you use for that.

But I also use this like skill set to like visually respond to life, politics, subject matter that I'm reading, that I'm focusing on, individual philosophies that I'm reading about and, discovering and, talking through with myself. It's like, I don't— I don't know. For me, it's like, the handling of Visual language isn't something that you just like pick up, during your 9 to 5 and then put down. For me, it's a, it's a thing that you do and filter everything through.

Christian Solorzano [13:19]

It seems like something that's integrated into part of your being, right? Like it's not something that you, that you think about during a fixed period of time, but I get the impression that it's something that you're just sort of always thinking about. Is that a correct assumption?

KT Duffy [13:34]

Yeah, I think especially with, whatever is happening in the world, looking at news cycles, it's like in my head, it's like, reading fiction novel, looking at the news, like looking at someone else's work. It's like in my head, it's like there's this response as composition thing that like Builds.

Christian Solorzano [14:02]

And what about you, KT?

Jonathan Sangster [14:03]

In high school, I just was like I was a jock and but also like a complete art nerd. And I just kind of did everything. I was making like really hyper-realistic paintings, but I was also taking like Photoshop, Illustrator classes. So I just got exposed to like a ton of stuff in high school and I went to college and I actually have degrees in social work and digital art and design.

But there I was also like making paintings and also kind of the same thing, like taking these digital design classes. And I had a professor come who was like fresh out of grad school, came from SFAI, and he sort of like blew my mind, like introduced me to like queer feminism, and he was making a lot of video work and that was like my gateway drug, if you will, into technology was just like video and like making things move.

And, because I was making these paintings and I was just this doesn't, this doesn't hold me enough. I need shit to light up and move and make noise. And so yeah, that's what got me really interested in learning to code, which I'm like a self-taught— I am a self-taught programmer.

And yeah, from there I had a— I went to grad school at Maryland Institute College of Art, and that was just like 2 years for me to kind of develop this like hybrid practice. I worked at a tech company out in Baltimore, and the whole time I'm there in Baltimore, I'm also teaching. I'm a professor now, and teaching is like something that's really important to me.

Yeah, just like both of us. Yeah, getting like interacting with like, my colleagues in the classroom and just seeing like what people are thinking through and working on. I don't know, it like keeps you on your toes and keeps you like, you're just like always in this community. I mean, that's what I loved about art was just like that studio culture. And just like how you kind of feed off of everybody.

And that's what I feel like we do a lot in Mx Studio is like we kind of have that like studio culture kind of thing going on.

Christian Solorzano [16:29]

So you would say like Mx Studio is sort of like your playground for just experimenting and breaking stuff and so what? Okay.

Jonathan Sangster [16:38]

Yeah, I mean, we want to make products for people, we want our shit to work. But in terms of just collaborating and, coming up with like branding identity, web products for folks. Like we want to, we really want to like think outside the box and, challenge ourselves to kind of come up with, new interesting ways of, talking about branding. We do a lot of work for, and in my experience of graphic design is I've done a ton of work for like nonprofits and artists.

I do some development for artists too. And that's like pretty much our client base. That allows us a little bit of freedom in terms of like what we make because we're working with creative people.

Christian Solorzano [17:24]

Yeah, even the website that the both of you have, for anyone that's listening, I would encourage you to check it out. We'll put a link to it in the description, but it's the website itself. It's interesting. It's interactive and it's not, it's, it doesn't feel like ordinary websites. And I think that speaks to what both of you are talking right now.

But what I find the most interesting is, I don't know, what would you call it, a manifesto or your about page where you start off with, we are digital gremlins and cyber sailors. I just love that so much. And I love that it ends with, we wake up and choose violence, because I think it's such a radical thing to say. And I know that the both of you are not violent people.

Jonathan Sangster [18:13]

Thank you for clarifying.

KT Duffy [18:14]

But yes, just so what was—

Christian Solorzano [18:20]

Yeah, to me, that's just super fascinating, just that entire statement. So yeah, tell me a little bit about that. How did that come about? And was it one of those things where you just, you did it in 5 minutes and you knew it was right? Or was there a lot of like iteration back and forth?

KT Duffy [18:40]

Wait, I want to start at the bottom, right? I think that, in the world that we live in, it's like, right, there's, right, not— it's like we're not talking about like physical violence, we're talking about like ideological violence, right? The fact that you actually have to in a philosophical and ideological way like, actually fight for things that you believe in, things that you support, right? This isn't— like, if you're talking about doing work that aligns with your values, these aren't things that are easy.

It's like, these are things that you have to fight for.

Jonathan Sangster [19:25]

Yeah, and we live in a violent, very violent society? We're part of that, right? It's just like in the water?

Christian Solorzano [19:35]

Yeah.

Jonathan Sangster [19:36]

Whatever way you look at it.

Christian Solorzano [19:37]

Yeah, so it's more of like design as a tool to fight back. That's how I'm interpreting it. And I think, I mean, I always think about what the word threat or threatening means. And I think today we, in a way, we need to be somewhat of a threat to Things that are unjust. And yeah, so that's one of the reasons why that really resonates with me.

And I've always wanted to— I always flirt with that word violence because I think it's interesting and it means so many things.

Jonathan Sangster [20:12]

Yeah, I love it.

KT Duffy [20:14]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [20:14]

But I'm glad that the two of you were unapologetic about putting it on your website despite how people might interpret it.

KT Duffy [20:22]

Well, I think that that's one of the things that, we believe in as well. It's like this— it's like, I really hate this, corporate, interpretation of the word transparency. It's like, it's like, we believe in being transparent. We're not talking about, protecting ourselves in a way that we won't get sued, right?

Jonathan Sangster [20:51]

Yeah.

KT Duffy [20:51]

That's not what we mean by transparency. We mean that we are the people that we are, and that's who we're going to be. If we're working with someone, like collaborating with someone, it's like, you can expect us to bring ourselves, right? There's not a version of us that is the business version. Yeah.

Jonathan Sangster [21:14]

And to show up for each other and like show up for our community too, like just being visible, being super honest. Like making products and design work that kind of has that ethos just built into it from the ground up.

Christian Solorzano [21:31]

Yeah.

KT Duffy [21:32]

And even in the classroom, it's like I tell my students this as well. I'm like, you— like, this isn't even about design. This applies to everything, right? You can ask me questions about design, life, my experience. And I will always be as truthful with you as possible because it doesn't serve me or anyone else for me to hide, subdue, or not be truthful.

Christian Solorzano [22:04]

Every time I hear that buzzword transparent, I'm like, well, what's the alternative? What's the opposite of transparency? Why is that even an option? It's almost like—

Jonathan Sangster [22:14]

Decronian capitalization— capitalism. Yes.

Christian Solorzano [22:19]

And it's similar to human-centered design is like, what's the alternative? Not human-centered design?

KT Duffy [22:28]

Oh my God, when that became popular as a term, field, like that just like racked my brain trying to figure out what the fuck that meant. I was like, if it isn't all design intended to be human-centered, God, what are you, what are you doing?

Jonathan Sangster [22:50]

I think another one you pick on too is design thinking. Yes. What, so we're all just gonna think like Swiss white guys? Is that what we need?

KT Duffy [23:00]

Yes. Yeah.

Jonathan Sangster [23:03]

Yes. More of that. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [23:05]

Yeah, no, I agree. And I think As someone that works in that world and whose background is in art and design, I think I'm a little bit more sensitive to hearing those words. So I always get riled up whenever I— it just triggers me. So there's Mx Studio, and then you're also both teaching, and you went a little bit over your ethos when it comes to teaching and your approach to that.

But as the Chicago Graphic Design Club, something that we're always thinking about is how could we sort of fill in those gaps in our industry, in our community. So we're always just thinking about how could we create a more equitable design industry, specifically in Chicago.

So we always like to ask our guests, are there any— anything in particular that comes to mind as far as things that you both feel need to be improved in Chicago, or ways that we can make design be something that— be a profession that's a little bit more accessible? Because I mean, I still think that there is a huge lack of diversity in our field.

And I think even, yeah, even some of the interns or the new hires that I see, for instance, at my company or other companies, I always feel like there's a big misrepresentation of the population. So does anything come to mind?

Jonathan Sangster [24:32]

Yeah, so many. I mean, yeah.

Christian Solorzano [24:36]

Huge question.

Jonathan Sangster [24:37]

You said it, like access. Access is we can start there.

KT Duffy [24:41]

Here we go.

Jonathan Sangster [24:42]

Like when I was teaching at NAIU, like the thing that happens is those students don't— they're not in the mix. It's this like, it's this very exclusionary club. And it's just get over yourself. You don't have to take yourself so seriously and take your little clique so seriously. You have to make space for others. And just seeing like firsthand some of the struggles that the students like dealt with trying to just even get their foot in the door.

Just even just this idea of access, like we don't even have that?

KT Duffy [25:16]

And in these design spaces, if you can get in there, it's like, they're not particularly helpful environments. I would go as far to say they're hostile.

Jonathan Sangster [25:32]

They are actively hostile. Yeah.

KT Duffy [25:34]

To Black, brown people, to femmes, to queer people. It's like they're not to use that buzzword, inclusive, like at all. Like they're not welcoming. And it's like, how long do you want to Have to endure that for the sake of a career.

Jonathan Sangster [26:06]

And how long do you have to just continue to do the same thing? I was trained this way, so I'm going to treat people this way. And then, it's just a continuation. How— so we're just not going to try any other solutions? We're just gonna, we're just gonna keep, doing this approach where we just try the same thing over and over again? We're not actually offering you any solutions. We're just, complaining.

KT Duffy [26:32]

I think that any solutions that we offer would be very high-minded and idealistic, or on— in my perspective, probably very dark and illegal. So I'm just gonna like veer away from that.

Jonathan Sangster [26:51]

I also think like I am—

KT Duffy [26:53]

Because I would start with guillotines, but I like this. I'm sorry, please continue.

Jonathan Sangster [27:03]

No, keep going, please.

Christian Solorzano [27:05]

We're gonna get— we're gonna get this show canceled.

KT Duffy [27:08]

Just kidding.

Jonathan Sangster [27:09]

Sorry.

KT Duffy [27:10]

I was like, how much time is left before you get contacted by the FBI?

Jonathan Sangster [27:16]

I was gonna say though, I'm a really big proponent of like DIY and like Start your own design firm, you know what I mean? That's— it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be like, oh, this is on you to find work and do it, you know what I mean? It shouldn't be on— like, it shouldn't be that way.

But if nobody's gonna— like, if there isn't access and you don't— you can't get your foot in the door and you don't want to be in that corporate situation, then, start your own thing. Get your—

Your friends, get your fellow graphic designers, and start your own thing. There's work out there. There's so much work out there, and you can just build it from the ground up. And I've always found that anytime I've really hit a barrier in both the art and design world, and I've hit many, I just taught myself. I taught myself how to code. We formed our own graphic design agency.

I just, I just want to empower students to really feel like they can actually do that, and that's part of like just showing up, right? Like being really honest about like what you're doing that's like, for your career outside of the classroom and just like modeling for students.

Like how to move through this industry. I mean, I can't tell you how many students I've had that have come up to me and be like, oh, you're my first queer faculty member. And I know you've had very similar experiences. In different ways. And, I think just like that, the visibility of that and—

KT Duffy [28:51]

Representation, for sure.

Jonathan Sangster [28:53]

And yeah, just like showing students some kind of path, right? Because there is no path. There's no one way of doing this. But being able to show them like, I banged my head against the wall this many times and like figured it out in this way.

And then like literally helping them, like literally like keeping in touch after classes and fostering their career and fostering their development and just like putting that extra effort in so that they don't feel like— I just feel like at least at NEIU, I can't talk about any other school here because I don't know it, but I feel like we just throw the students out. We're just good luck. And we just like completely cut ties with them. And that's, it's violent. It's super violent.

Christian Solorzano [29:36]

I agree.

Jonathan Sangster [29:38]

It doesn't get anybody anywhere.

KT Duffy [29:39]

Well, and in terms of representation too, it's like, as a Black educator, it's like I have taught in many different institutions, and I am usually the only Black person that is faculty there, right? Like I've had, well, My existence legitimacy questioned. People are like, you're a professor? I'm like, yes. Right? Because they do not often see a professor that looks like me. Right?

And it's kind of disturbing that it's so surprising that people don't believe it. Right. So if you follow that train of thought, it's like, if it's unbelievable for colleagues, other adults, it's going to be just as unbelievable for students, right? Which once again means that if this isn't something they have ever seen, how the fuck are they ever going to imagine themselves doing it?

Jonathan Sangster [30:51]

So it's an option?

KT Duffy [30:54]

Right.

Jonathan Sangster [30:55]

I mean, obviously so much more than that, but at the base level, like just Seeing it as an option for yourself.

Christian Solorzano [31:00]

Yeah, because I— and I think a big part of it is like just being vulnerable with students, because I remember like all the— I mean, I could count the number of professors that I've had that I still think about to this day because they were just vulnerable. And like they would talk about— I mean, they would talk about like, I remember I had one of them and they would talk about pretty serious like personal issues.

And it was the person that— I mean, I feel like these professors were the ones that I was able to resonate with the most because they were real people and they swore in class and they were quote unquote unprofessional, but they were talented.

KT Duffy [31:39]

That's us.

Jonathan Sangster [31:40]

We're really good at it.

Christian Solorzano [31:43]

So what are you both teaching right now? What type of classes?

Jonathan Sangster [31:47]

I'm teaching a summer class in mixed reality, so AR and VR. That's for the University of Oklahoma graduate program in art and tech— art, technology, and culture. And then I'm teaching a class called Interface: Code is not Neutral at OU in the fall and another class.

Christian Solorzano [32:09]

Okay.

KT Duffy [32:12]

All the things.

Jonathan Sangster [32:13]

Yeah, another class that I don't remember what the title is.

KT Duffy [32:16]

You got a lot going on.

Jonathan Sangster [32:19]

It's true. Awesome.

Christian Solorzano [32:21]

And what about you, Jonathan?

KT Duffy [32:22]

So I was teaching— what did I teach most recently? I was teaching a design history seminar at NEIU, which is super fun and right up my alley because I got to teach it in a way that, in my opinion, design history needs to be taught. Which includes a lot of modern history. I am not a huge fan of digging into this foundation of old dead white men and teaching that as the only design history that matters.

And it's like this idea that we in the design community are still teaching the same historical information that I was taught 20 years ago is so bizarre to me because a lot of things have happened since. Really?

Jonathan Sangster [33:24]

Yeah, weird.

KT Duffy [33:27]

And to me, it's like, how are you teaching them things from 100 years ago and then expecting for them to operate in 2022 or 2030?

Jonathan Sangster [33:38]

I wish I could have taken that class.

KT Duffy [33:39]

It was really fun. Yeah, a lot of good dialogue in that one.

Christian Solorzano [33:44]

So what was the process of just coming up with material for that class? Because something that we try to sometimes do is, as part of the club, we try to provide— so our 3 pillars are craft, theory, and practice. And with the theory components is we're always trying to, yeah, just surface more design theory. We take a lot of inspiration from books and history.

And I would say one of my biggest frustrations is just how difficult it is to find history of design that's not your standard history of design. Yeah, and it's frustrating. And sometimes it's just I don't even know where do I go? I keep Googling and the same things keep popping up.

KT Duffy [34:31]

Well, and it's interesting too, because a lot of the resources that are used, aren't published in books. So it's like they're individual research papers and research projects, but they're not collected in volumes, which makes it very bizarre and difficult to rabbit hole. There's a resource that is a spreadsheet called Decolonizing Graphic Design History that was put together by a number of different professors, history professors from different schools.

Actually, one of them was one of my professors at Southern Illinois University named Karma Gorman, and I reached out and thanked her for her participation in this project. So I was like, this is exactly what I need. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can search that one up. If not, I can send that along to you because it is fantastic.

Christian Solorzano [35:33]

Yes, please.

KT Duffy [35:34]

I really enjoyed integrating into my class and teaching on, which was about stereotypography. It's like this idea of, stereotypes that through history have reinforced racist ideas. It's like, in my teaching of this, I constantly remind my students, it's like, as designers, we're crafting and shaping the world. You are not just making work to communicate something. It's like you're shaping how other people see other people.

You're reinforcing these stereotypes, damaging divisive stereotypes for other people through your work. It's like there are specific typefaces that are built and meant to denote what an Asian person is or is capable of or sounds like, or what a Black person says or smells like. It's like these aren't accidents. These are ideas that are intentionally crafted. And then pushed into the world using visual communication.

Christian Solorzano [36:50]

And I think it's such a difficult conversation to have with, for instance, when you're dealing with corporations, because I think getting buy-in, to me, I've always found that to be so difficult, especially when there's a lot of money involved, is how do you educate while maintaining some sort of respect? And that's something that I always struggle with is like the balance between yeah, just the balance between that.

Jonathan Sangster [37:19]

Yeah, and I'll add that, we share a lot of resources too. We're always bouncing things back and forth from each other and sharing them with our students. And, we're also just plugged into like a lot of collective resources. I have a similar decolonizing new media sheet that I use a lot, and I find a lot of developers and stuff on there to work with. Yeah, we're always like Jay gives a lecture and I'm like, oh, let me, let me have that.

And then I like sort of update it for the class that I'm teaching. And yeah. The, one of the classes that I'm teaching this coming semester is Interface Code Isn't— Code is not Neutral. And it's just really digging into like the violence of coding and development and, the historical precedent for who gets to be in those spaces. And I find a ton of crossover with like what Jay's talking about just in terms of even just type, right?

And like what I'm talking about in terms of my content for like front-end development. And so it's like, I just feel like we're a really great resource for each other.

KT Duffy [38:22]

Well, it's like, Christian, what you were saying. It's like, I feel like we have to, right? In this community, it's like all of these resources like aren't immediately apparent. They're not immediately available. So the easiest way for us to educate ourselves and educate, others as designers and makers is to share these resources and share information.

Jonathan Sangster [38:46]

And one thing we try to do too, I know you're really committed to this because you, you're more on the type side of things than I am. With Mixed Studio Work, we put a lot of time and intention to, choosing typefaces and fonts that are made by Black and brown folks, by femmes, by folks that don't traditionally, own that space, right? And I think it's really important, we call it out with the clients.

We're like, oh, this typeface is by this person, this other typeface is by this person. And then I think that's a good way to also educate the client to be like, well, this is an industry that's incredibly male, incredibly white, and this really beautiful typeface, we would like to use this because we'd like to support this maker. And I feel like that brings a lot of— it brings a new conversation to the client conversation in terms of when you're getting feedback and stuff like that.

Christian Solorzano [39:49]

Are there any specific industries or sectors that you're both particularly drawn to when it comes to working with clients? Because I mean, I'm looking at the website right now and I see that there's a Chicago Art Census. Which I think is incredible.

Jonathan Sangster [40:08]

Thanks. So what's—

KT Duffy [40:12]

Would you—

Christian Solorzano [40:12]

Yeah, just what— is there like a criteria or how is that— what's that process like when building those relationships with potential clients?

Jonathan Sangster [40:20]

Values, I think.

Christian Solorzano [40:21]

Values, okay.

Jonathan Sangster [40:22]

We really wanna work with people whose values align with us. And we tend to find those people in the arts and people that are working on creative projects and working with other creatives.

KT Duffy [40:34]

Arts, culture, music. I really like the idea of supporting, other makers. In whatever field they're operating in. Not a huge fan of doing things to help people make things to make them more money. And that's—

Jonathan Sangster [40:58]

That's not our specialty. We don't specialize in that.

KT Duffy [41:01]

And I have this conversation, like we've had this conversation, and I Like, talk to my students about this all the time because I'm like, that's a complicated thing because we're all operating in the same, consumerist capitalist hellscape, right? And we need things like money to do things. So it's like, I don't have a perfect answer for this based on my thoughts of, design ethics. Because yeah, I think that As makers, it's like we're not always going to be in ideal situations, right?

Like in terms of like choosing clients and who you want to work with. If you need to pay the mortgage, you do something to make that happen, right? I can't come from this idealistic place and say, no, if this client's gross, don't do it, because sometimes you just kind of have to. And especially if you're a student or just starting out, it's like sometimes you have to do a thing to do a thing to get to a place where you can, have these options, right?

It's like the ideals and values that we, try to operate within, even that's coming from a pretty privileged position, right? To be able to say, I want to work with arts, culture, cultural institutions. Like even that's like a place of privilege, right?

Christian Solorzano [42:31]

The idea of choice yeah, it's a luxury, right?

KT Duffy [42:34]

Yeah, exactly.

Jonathan Sangster [42:35]

And we're really privileged in that, I have a whole-ass job, and this is something that we're just starting, and I have the security of that job so that I can work in this way. But what you're saying is totally valid. I can't— I'm sure you have the same thing. I can't tell you how many clients I've worked with that I've just been like, no thank you. But right, you got to pay the bills. Very real.

KT Duffy [42:59]

Yeah. I don't have, I don't have a formula or equation for like, yeah.

Christian Solorzano [43:04]

Right.

Jonathan Sangster [43:04]

It's like work with this many growth people, work with this many nonprofits and you'll like even out the scale.

Christian Solorzano [43:13]

I've heard of, I mean, I've spoken with some people and they'll say that if they work with a client that perhaps is not so ethical, they'll then do pro bono work to somewhat like reverse like the effects of so I don't know, in my mind that looks like a formula of like.

KT Duffy [43:29]

Yeah, and some, agencies and firms like have that same equation, but I don't. I mean, as an individual, I'm like, it's like you have to figure that out for yourself based on like how that makes you feel inside.

Jonathan Sangster [43:46]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [43:48]

And then, so you're both from Chicago and why continue to stick around in Chicago? Why like, what is it about the city that, yeah, that just makes you want to stay here?

KT Duffy [44:00]

KT didn't. KT left.

Jonathan Sangster [44:02]

I live in Oklahoma currently, but I summer in Chicago.

Christian Solorzano [44:08]

Do you like me?

Jonathan Sangster [44:10]

Yeah, you totally just snitched on me. But Chicago's home to me? My 5-year plan is to make my way back. And kind of step into this role full-time to give that voice and plant that seed.

KT Duffy [44:30]

I'm still here because I'm more dedicated to—

Jonathan Sangster [44:33]

You're more dedicated to Mx Studio. That's absolutely—

KT Duffy [44:41]

I mean, the fact that I'm still here is, I don't know, happenstance. If I'm being completely honest, not my favorite city in the world.

Christian Solorzano [44:51]

And why is that?

KT Duffy [44:52]

Going back to this question about—

Christian Solorzano [44:57]

I mean, there's a lot of reasons why Chicago could not be someone's favorite city.

KT Duffy [45:01]

Oh, like all the way back to this question about diversity. It's like, I love so many things about Chicago, but at the same time, it's like, for the large metropolitan city that it is, it's like the segregation here, it has always been really gross. And that has always been really detrimental for Black people, right? So it's really hard for me to say, yeah, I love it here, when historically for so long people, politicians police are like, cool, you can stay, but go over there.

Speaking of favorite cities in the world I feel really at home in Berlin and London.

Jonathan Sangster [45:51]

I remember when I got a job in Oklahoma, that was a good step for me. And a lot of people from my art and design community were like, you're gonna live in Oklahoma? Are you gonna be okay? And it's like, look around here. Look at what we have. Look at the place that you live in. Why are you hating on the South? You need to really Look at what you're doing and look at, the segregation in the city and the, enormous problematics of how Chicago runs.

I mean, I'm not like an apologist for Oklahoma either.

KT Duffy [46:29]

I was like, are we ranking this or—

Jonathan Sangster [46:33]

We're not. No, not on this podcast. No.

KT Duffy [46:37]

Okay. That being said, it's like, I really do. I love the art community, the design community, the queer community here. I love the arts. I'm gonna be working on a project with the Museum of Contemporary Art coming up pretty soon, which is like a dream project for me.

Christian Solorzano [47:00]

Can you tell us anything about it or is it top secret still?

KT Duffy [47:05]

I think it's top secret. Let's just— it's exciting. So I'm gonna be doing some— identity branding work for a program that's coming up in the fall. Right. So in terms of Chicago, it's like places like the MCA, right? Were really influential in terms of like who, I am and how I think is, you know—

Jonathan Sangster [47:34]

And what you're looking at.

KT Duffy [47:35]

Yeah, a maker. Right. So it's like if I hadn't had that opportunity to visit that institution, to be in that space, it's like I would be a totally different maker of some sort? So it's things like that I really love about Chicago.

Jonathan Sangster [47:53]

My dad took me to the MCA when I was like 13. It was like the first time he ever went to an art museum. And I saw a Tony Oisler piece and it like blew my mind. And I think just back to like influences and stuff, I think that's really been something that has always kind of carried I've always kind of carried around with me is like those early influences from like having my mind blown at the MCA.

Christian Solorzano [48:17]

Yeah, I still—

Jonathan Sangster [48:18]

My class Concepts in New Media is the other class I'm teaching.

Christian Solorzano [48:22]

And could you tell us a little bit about that class?

Jonathan Sangster [48:25]

Yeah, it's really just sort of like an entry-level class that kind of teaches more kind of beginner-end tech processes. So we do like an experimental video project, we do a digital fabrication project, and we do like a coding project just to give the students like a taste of what's out there. And then like the content for it is really talking about like the implications of these tools and these technologies and like what it means that they're in the world and that we're participating in them.

So I try to always bring in that like social justice Standpoint. And it's really interesting, when I first started working at OU, I would literally have students like, how does this relate? I'm getting better at like explaining to them, it might not seem like these things are directly, related, but they very much are. And just helping them like make those connections on their own is something that I'm working on now and trying to find like more solid ways of getting them to get to that space.

KT Duffy [49:31]

Yeah. That's something that I always find really interesting about like, the way some designers think too. It's like that you shouldn't have a perspective. It's bizarre to me because I'm like, if you're the designer, it's like, and if you don't have a perspective, why are you doing this and not anyone else?

Christian Solorzano [49:52]

Right?

KT Duffy [49:53]

Like what makes this, what makes your work your work as opposed to Any of— yeah, any, anyone else. If you don't have a viewpoint or perspective, then it's like, it's almost like you're not an individual.

Christian Solorzano [50:10]

Yeah. And I think a part of— I don't know, I think something that contributes to that is how I mean, design systems, for instance, I'm a user interface designer, and I think something I always see is the— every time design is standardized, it almost makes it possible for like anyone to be able to do it in a way that is good, quote unquote good. So yeah, cause I mean, even myself, like I find myself sometimes doing work where I'm like, anyone could be doing this.

Like I am just snapping things to a grid and it looks good.

Jonathan Sangster [50:43]

And the over-templatization of the web.

Christian Solorzano [50:46]

Yeah. So I think, I mean, I think that's contributing to kind of what you're talking about. So yeah, I mean, something I always try to do is if you can't get— if you can't have that outlet in your profession, I think, there's many other hours in the day where you could actually like break all of those things.

Jonathan Sangster [51:05]

Because I think, right, like you need that outlet. It just— for me, it just always like serves me so much and like fills me up so much. And, not having that outlet I think is really detrimental to your career as a designer.

Christian Solorzano [51:21]

I agree.

KT Duffy [51:22]

And also a human being. It's like, the idea of leisure and fun and play, right? Is important to the experience of being a human being and being a person and not just being a generator of output.

Christian Solorzano [51:40]

Yeah, like a machine.

KT Duffy [51:47]

That's something that really frustrates me. I'm just if work is the most fulfilling thing in your life, you should probably take a step back and look at what's happening.

Jonathan Sangster [51:55]

I've lived that never-not-working lifestyle. I've lived that hard, and maybe I'm sort of just coming off that now. It's no good. No way.

KT Duffy [52:08]

If you ask anyone that I have ever taught, they will tell you that I am the first one to say, do not stay up all night working on this, because if you come here and if you are tired, you cannot communicate. Yeah, not function in a way that is focused. Go home, take a nap.

Jonathan Sangster [52:27]

Yeah, I mean, to sit down. Yes, sit down.

Christian Solorzano [52:32]

I mean, I mean, I think doing nothing is part of the creative process, and I think yeah, my best ideas come from me literally doing nothing and they just start coming. And I think, again, this hustle culture that we live in, especially something I always see on Instagram is you have some of these young designers that are literally creating a poster every single day and you're just well, if I want to be good, I have to do that. And it's not sustainable.

And you don't know what that person must be like. You can't see the other side of the picture. But yeah, and that's actually something that I always tell junior designers is, yeah, don't work too hard. I always say at 3 PM on a Friday, turn your computer off, leave. It's important. So I think those boundaries are essential. And when I was in college, I never did an all-nighter ever. I couldn't physically.

KT Duffy [53:34]

I definitely did.

Jonathan Sangster [53:35]

I did, I did too many. Yeah, burnt myself out a bit.

Christian Solorzano [53:40]

I did it. I mean, what I would do is I would just wake up at like 4, 3 AM and like that. I just did it in the reverse.

Jonathan Sangster [53:47]

So you did pretty much the full thing online.

Christian Solorzano [53:51]

It is the same thing, but it was, I guess, all morning or something.

Jonathan Sangster [53:57]

But you got like a couple hours in there.

KT Duffy [54:01]

Nice try though.

Christian Solorzano [54:02]

I just found it difficult to stay past a certain hour. My brain just stopped working. So for me, it was just, I'd rather wake up early. So we're almost wrapping up. I have a few more questions, but if it wasn't design or anything in the arts or anything remotely similar, what would you be doing? Any other Professions, paths.

KT Duffy [54:29]

Okay, so ideally I would either be an assassin or I would be doing nothing. I would just live in a cabin out in the woods. My activity for the day would just be chopping wood whilst listening to my music, and everyone would leave me alone.

Jonathan Sangster [54:51]

It's a great profession.

KT Duffy [54:52]

Thank you. Yeah, well, it's not a— but that's my ideal life.

Christian Solorzano [54:57]

It's never too late.

Jonathan Sangster [54:59]

I would be a librarian because I'm just like interested in everything, and I found that the only career that can really hold that is like your interest in everything and just sort of having your hand in like all these different disciplines is like art and design.

Christian Solorzano [55:12]

Last question, not design related, but what are your— what are some of your favorite Chicago spots? Any places, businesses that you guys want to shout out?

KT Duffy [55:21]

Top of my head is the Rainbow Club. The Rainbow Club? And my favorite dive bar for many years. Periodically, once or twice a year, definitely on my birthday, I always go because they've got one of the super dope old school photo booths. Oh my God, I love those so much. I've got many strips of me that you can see, aging over the years.

Christian Solorzano [55:46]

Yeah, I love that place.

KT Duffy [55:48]

Not that there's much difference in the photos, but whatever, that's irrelevant.

Jonathan Sangster [55:53]

I'll give a shout out to Northeastern Illinois University. The students there are amazing. You should work with them. You should hire them. They're great. That was me talking to the listener, not you.

Christian Solorzano [56:06]

I will hire them.

Jonathan Sangster [56:09]

It's personal.

KT Duffy [56:10]

It's personal.

Christian Solorzano [56:11]

You better hire them. All right, and then the actually final question is, any advice for younger designers or anyone that is new to the industry?

Jonathan Sangster [56:28]

I think I would say, don't— getting back to like, you have to have a perspective. Don't try to be like everybody else. Show up for yourself. Show up as yourself and, with that honesty and that transparency, that's all you have, right, as a designer, right? And your integrity, just showing up and being your full self when and where you can.

KT Duffy [56:52]

And I think that I would say, because this is something that, I was never told, I was never taught, and it took a good long time, decades, for me to get comfortable with. It's like, my love of experimentation, right, is also rooted in the fact that, it's okay to not do something right. It's okay to, fail, get fired, do something wrong. It's like, you're a human being. You're not going to do everything right. You're definitely not going to do everything right the first time.

You're not going to succeed at everything. Right, that's okay.

Jonathan Sangster [57:34]

And like email people, like don't be, I feel like when I was younger I was just oh, I can't email people. They're just— yeah, but like reach out to people. I'm not talking about like where you like, you're like social network networking. Yeah, see that? Like doing it in a way that makes you feel comfortable, right? Like finding people whose like work you really admire, talk to them, ask them if they need an assistant. Ask them questions. Then try to get yourself paid.

Those are all real ways of getting your foot in the door.

KT Duffy [58:07]

The worst thing you can say is no.

Jonathan Sangster [58:09]

Yeah, or just not reply to you, and you just move on and email the next person. Find all the little, the, sort of up-and-coming design companies in Chicago. Email them all. See what they're working on. See what they need. And even if you don't get a job then, they might just have you in mind for when they do have the capacity to bring on more people.

Christian Solorzano [58:30]

And that's actually how I connected with you, Jonathan. I remember I just messaged you on Instagram. And yeah, people always ask, how do you get speakers? And I'm— and I just say, I just sometimes I literally just message them, hey, on Instagram and they respond.

KT Duffy [58:48]

So it works.

Christian Solorzano [58:49]

Some people don't, but it's okay.

Jonathan Sangster [58:51]

Yeah.

KT Duffy [58:52]

It's like, in my experience, it's like, sure. It's like in our heads, people can respond in lots of different ways. They're not, in my experience, right? It's like, you can get a no, you can get ignored, you can get an actual response. Very rarely is somebody going to tell you to fuck off. I don't think I've ever had that happen. It's a possibility, but it's okay to try.

Christian Solorzano [59:15]

Well, thank you both. This was great. And yeah, and we'll put links to everything that we discussed in the description for this episode. So thank you so much.

Jonathan Sangster [59:28]

This was great. Absolutely. Thanks.