Christian Solorzano [00:00]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a show by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I'm your host, Christian Solorzano, and today I'm excited to share my conversation with Nika Simovich Fisher, a writer, designer, and educator based in New York who was recently in Chicago for a conference. And her and I have been connected on Instagram for a few years now, and it was Pretty awesome to meet her in person for the first time and to record this episode in a classroom at DePaul University here in Chicago.

Nika is a tenure-track Assistant Professor of Communication Design at Parsons School of Design and researches how design shapes what people believe politically, spiritually, culturally, and about themselves. Her writing has appeared in the New York Times, MIT Technology Review, Wired, Fast Company, and AIGA Eye on Design, and spans everything from the digitization of Serbian Cyrillic typefaces to the role of AI in spirituality. She is the founder of Laboud, a design studio working across fashion, publishing, and technology, and serves on the board of AIGA New York.

Together, we explore her journey from the early internet to Columbia Journalism to Parsons, how her writing and design practices feed each other, and why she believes the way things look is never just aesthetic. It's always political, it's always cultural, and it's always telling you something about power. She opens up about her daily writing practice, her Serbian roots, and what a mute swan has to do with all of it.

If you enjoy these conversations, please support the show by following us on your preferred streaming platform and leaving us a rating. It helps expand our reach and we just really appreciate it. So thank you so much and enjoy the conversation. Welcome, Nika, to Chicago. Why are you in Chicago?

Nika Simovich Fisher [02:07]

I'm in Chicago to speak at the CAA conference. I'm on a panel and I'm talking about a project called Invisible Nightlife Review that I did last spring with DIRT and a few New School students.

Christian Solorzano [02:20]

And I was watching one of your recordings on YouTube recently where you talk about that project DIRT. And you talked about the websites and how the website only functions from midnight to 6 AM, which I thought was really cool. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about that project.

Nika Simovich Fisher [02:36]

Sure, thanks. So the project was done in collaboration with DIRT, who is a publisher and a media company that they publish work about internet culture and it's sold through a literary lens. And it was founded by Daisy Aliotto, who is one of the— who's the editor there, and we worked together to create a special edition project with the New School students.

And On Dirt, she has done several different editions of this project where they pick a city and then they talk about nightlife through a literary lens, and so different writers write short prose and vignettes about New York, for example, and we wanted to make something that was speculative in nature. And when we were talking about collaborating with one another, we realized that we were both really interested in Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino.

And so we wanted to think about how we could use a speculative framing of nightlife as an entry point for students to publish their work. It's really hard to get your foot in the door, and I think there's so many ways that design and writing overlap.

Christian Solorzano [03:39]

And I read that for you, writing came before design. And you started writing like these fiction stories when you were very young.

Nika Simovich Fisher [03:47]

Yeah, I wrote on neopets.com. It was a piece called Chia or Cheeseburger, and it was about some of those avatars. It's like making a decision to be vegetarian, and it was a very impulse decision. I think that one day I just decided I wanted to write a story.

Christian Solorzano [04:02]

I was browsing your website, and you and I are both— we're both born in 1991, so I feel like we both overlap. A lot of probably the same internet culture like that we were both probably consuming as teenagers. Because I remember Neopets. I didn't have a Neopet, but I remember people that did have Neopets and there was like a whole culture around it.

Nika Simovich Fisher [04:20]

Yeah, you're right. It was different. I feel like there's always been this desire to have pets on screens. For example, Tamagotchi.

Christian Solorzano [04:27]

Do you remember your first encounter with the internet? Like your first time using it and having access to this big network of yeah, I do.

Nika Simovich Fisher [04:38]

I feel like I've always been online because I have an older brother, or my older brother is about 7 years older. He, was using it regularly to connect with his friends and download music. And I believe that my first memories of being online were actually looking at leonardodicaprio.com and titanicthemovie.com. I think there's— we don't really consume celebrity culture in the same way we did back then, but I actually just ran a workshop with some students in Kalamazoo about surfacing old internet websites.

And we started with an activity where everyone shared their first memories of being online. Mine was about like looking at Leonardo DiCaprio and not really knowing what to do on the internet.

Christian Solorzano [05:15]

I remember I still had with my students, I always show them the Web Design Museum. To just share it with them that in my opinion, I feel like the internet was more exciting back then. Websites felt a little bit more— there is more of an identity to them.

Nika Simovich Fisher [05:32]

I think that's true. And there weren't any presets for what it should look like, so it was a little bit more experimental.

But I think it's helpful. I think the Web Design Museum is really great, but it's sort of somebody else's curation. And so I've really been interested in helping some of my students and the students that I was working with just a couple days ago use the Internet Archive to find things that maybe haven't been archived or curated into a collection. So start— we used our first memories of being online as a jumping off point.

And then we looked at it at the first screenshot of those websites and then one from sometime in the middle. And then we did like in present day, and then we kind of drew some conclusions. And then from there, I think it's also interesting to kind of use some of the content as a jumping off point.

And so we did filtered Google searches where you selected a date range. So maybe you found a piece of information about Leonardo DiCaprio. Now you're gonna go actually look what was posted about him in the previous time period. And I think those types of like filters on searches are always— they're very accessible, but most— a lot of students haven't really used them.

So I think it's a helpful way of digging into what's already online and then kind of going back and forth between the Wayback Machine and looking at these filtered searches.

Christian Solorzano [06:47]

I love the Wayback Machine.

Nika Simovich Fisher [06:49]

Me too.

Christian Solorzano [06:49]

It's so cool. I wish it was a little easier to use because sometimes it's a little laggy and just like clicking on the count, like just I don't like the arrows, and there's little tiny things I don't find pleasant about it.

Nika Simovich Fisher [07:03]

Yeah, that's true. And I think that, it's not always super reliable and not every image works. The Leonardo DiCaprio website from like 1997 is entirely images, and some of them don't load, so you can't get the full experience. But yeah, I like it as that it's there.

Christian Solorzano [07:19]

So were you a big fan of his when you were little?

Nika Simovich Fisher [07:22]

I was.

Christian Solorzano [07:23]

A crush?

Nika Simovich Fisher [07:24]

I think it was a celebrity crush, but I think there was just and like not knowing what to do with your time online, that was just like an immediate thing. And I remember, just coming up with ideas of like things2do.com and of course there were things for kids, but it was just like a shot in the dark at times.

Christian Solorzano [07:40]

Yeah, I remember back then I would do, I would print worksheets like a coloring page.

Nika Simovich Fisher [07:44]

The way we thought about print was so novel at that time period. Now we, I don't really use that in the same capacity, but, this activity I did with these students, a couple days ago. The question that I asked them with their memory of first memory of being online was, I asked that to my students my first year of teaching. And I started teaching when I was 25, so I actually wasn't much older than these undergraduate students.

And so I was actually expecting this to be a way for us to connect and have shared experiences. But what I realized was that all of those students who were a few years younger than me, all of their memories were actually built on top of existing platforms. I remember someone saying that a parent showed them a YouTube video or like their mom would post on Facebook. And yeah, it was telling because I think that time span of—

The short years, people like the bigger tech platforms really took over.

Christian Solorzano [08:35]

Are you a screenshotter? Do you screenshot a lot of things?

Nika Simovich Fisher [08:39]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [08:40]

Yeah, I have a— I love screenshotting things and I have on my Google Drive like just folders of screenshots from, like 10 years ago. And to me, it's always really nice to see how the browser has evolved. Yeah, like skeuomorphism has kind of like— it disappeared, but then it's like kind of coming back a little bit. You see some of the web trends like resurface years later.

Nika Simovich Fisher [09:06]

Yeah, absolutely. I noticed that too. Did you participate in the 2016 nostalgia trend a few weeks ago?

Christian Solorzano [09:13]

No, but I did hear about it. I did, I did go through my archive to like just look at what I was up to in 2016 and it's nothing that I'm proud to share. It was just, stupid stuff that's like, no one needs to see this.

Nika Simovich Fisher [09:27]

Yeah, I thought it was interesting, but I did it came to mind because I did see a lot of Instagram screenshots. Yeah, just a way of people posting online was different as well as the actual details of the screen too.

Christian Solorzano [09:40]

And also I feel like the type of content that people would share back then feels very different. Like I see like photo dumps as like a thing that's happening now, whereas before I felt like it was like Facebook albums and now there's like the Instagram photo dump. And it's just nice to see how like that visual language that people adopt on these platforms.

Nika Simovich Fisher [10:05]

Yeah. Yeah. It shows how we consume and produce content too. My pictures, what something that I talked about in the workshop that I led a couple of days ago and like why you would be looking at these old websites is so that you have a more clear view and opinion of what the past actually looked like. So it's not, this abstraction that gets commodified and shared and reinterpreted that kind of flattens the experience.

And it came to mind because on TikTok there's this video of someone saying like, hey, welcome back to 2009. If you graduated high school this year you're turning 35. Yeah. It's like a, like walk down memory lane. Maybe you've seen this type of content.

But it's like these people kind of highlighting this experience of being in high school when we were in high school, and it's an abstraction. The song that was playing was not from that time period. The technology is different, but when I looked at my own pictures from Facebook from those time periods, there's so many little details that are just kind of sloppy in a way that AI can't navigate in the same way.

Christian Solorzano [11:04]

I've been really also fascinated with how they're— like, the other day I saw how compact cameras are making a comeback because the Gen Z generation has this love for Photography that looks like it's, a little dated and kind of lo-fi. So at what point do you decide that you want to go into design? How does that— how does writing and like the internet take you into a design practice?

Nika Simovich Fisher [11:32]

Yeah, it was interesting. When I was in high school, I was not the best student by any means, certainly not the worst, but just sort of unclear and unfocused. But I did start college at UC Santa Cruz.

In California. It's kind of like a hippie town on the beach, and there's a college campus, and it's a state school. So everyone from that university was from California. And it was, we graduated high school during the recession. And I think at that time, the state schools had a lot of students, and it was sort of hard to get into classes that you wanted to because there were so many people.

And so I didn't have that much of an opinion, but I knew I wanted to take psychology classes. But then those classes filled up. And so in short, I kind of took classes that were available that were a little random.

I'm really glad I did. I took a class about like theater, like looking at Greek plays and then comparing them to film. But ultimately I ended up like dropping out of college after that first year because I wasn't sure what I was doing. And I worked in retail for a little bit. I worked at Glenwood Mall. I worked at Abercrombie and Fitch. And I did a summer program at Parsons and it was for adults. So I was 19 and everybody else was much older.

And it was just so inspiring being on the university itself. People, came there because they wanted to be studying and talking about design. Just being able to walk around the city and being alone didn't feel unusual, whereas in Santa Cruz, I felt like if you would kind of go out to dinner by yourself, you were sort of seeing everyone else in groups.

And so I really appreciated that aspect of New York. And I ended up transferring there for undergrad and I moved to New York City and I continued working in retail while I was in college. But yeah, I think at the time that I was at Parsons, I wasn't decided if I would do illustration or interior design or communication design.

And I asked a counselor and she was, like talking through a few different things, and she told me about Juliette César, who's actually my colleague now and been a mentor for many years. But she had just joined the U School at that time and was really rethinking how communication design was taught and really thinking about interactivity and digital spaces alongside print, because before it was very separated.

And so I ended up— she said that there was— there's a lot of energy there, and so I just took her word. And I think it wasn't super thought out. And I think in my experiences, sort of following a gut reaction has been really productive and taking a chance. But I came into that program, I really enjoyed studying typography and thinking about how there's always such a relationship between a form and the content.

And I liked what I was doing, but it didn't really click for me until I took an interaction class. And I think by looking at, learning how to create a website with HTML, I started to understand how to create a system of typography. And so from doing that, I ended up understanding how to make books, for example, in much more clarity. And I think something that I liked about Parsons too was, I never felt super academic.

I said I wasn't like the best student in high school. But what was cool about Parsons is that they really taught you that anything could be interesting, just how you research it and talk about it. And like anything in visual culture can political, for example and connect to other trends in technology.

And that was really exciting for me because suddenly I could see that some of the interests I had that I didn't think were super high-minded, like TV or media, suddenly could be talked about in this way that's connecting to broader events.

Christian Solorzano [15:14]

Yeah. And when it comes to a lot of the work that you focus on, what are some of the stories that you're interested in telling? Because I feel like there's a thread that runs through a lot of what you do, and I'm curious to Hear about the spark behind all of that.

Nika Simovich Fisher [15:28]

Yeah, I think that I'm most interested in what makes things feel believable.

And that's sometimes through writing or through how like images get shared and gain traction and change form and meaning over time. So what makes things feel believable is an interesting aspect to it. And then in turn, it's also about expanding the scope of design history to really include more versions of internet history into that, voices that maybe haven't been included in that and documenting that. 'Cause it's a pretty recent history too. So those are the two things.

Christian Solorzano [15:57]

What are some of the classes that you focus on or that you teach?

Nika Simovich Fisher [16:00]

I teach classes that are both publishing and interaction courses. I have been teaching a class called Design and the Future of Publishing, which is for grad students, and it's really thinking about the future publishing industry, but then helping students develop a little bit of design knowledge so they can create their own publications. And then right now I'm teaching a brand new class called Publishing in Public. It's a class that I came up with, and it's new for the spring.

And it focuses— it's really it's about how publications make their ideas legible to others. And a publication can be an individual, it could be like an actual cultural publication, it could be a coworking space. It's anyone that has work that they're developing and designing, has an editorial take on it, and then gets distributed. And that class focuses on 3 different things. One is finding who your audience is, and the second is taste and what that looks like today and the current tech landscape.

And the last one is about distribution. So, is this going to be for one person and is it going to be for many people? Is it going to be a limited edition run? Is it going to exist only on social media? And showing that there's not just like one good option to do this, that it really can vary and it should depend on the content that you're developing.

Christian Solorzano [17:10]

So today, like you, because I see a lot of the type of content that you post on your social media and there is a lot of writing that's involved and a lot of like Autobiographical writing where like you're traveling and you're like documenting your experiences and taking photographs. And then so there's that part, but then also I understand that you also run like your own design practice and that's where you take on client projects.

And I'm curious to see if there is kind of a relationship between the, maybe the autobiographical work, your academic work, and then maybe like your more client-facing work.

Nika Simovich Fisher [17:44]

Yeah, I think they're all very much related and I think they're all the same practice just with different outputs. With the client-based work, they're always like centering stories that are not my own. However, it's really asking, using a journalistic process to find out what the client might gravitate towards or how like what story they're trying to share that maybe hasn't been communicated as clearly as it could. And then from there, building out a visual language to support that.

So I think there's a lot of similarities, both with like the research that I'm doing, finding custom references for the different projects, and then also spending time putting different pieces of content in conversation with one another. That's one of my favorite things about writing is being able to put someone who's like a traditional academic in conversation with like a TikTok tarot card reader.

And I think those sort of like mixing of established, like peer-reviewed things versus things that are more ephemeral and placing them on equal playing fields. Is really empowering. And I think for both writing and design, there's a lot of space to do that. And so that you're pulling from your own interests in that sense.

Christian Solorzano [18:50]

And what do you— with your students, what is the overall sense of— what are some of the responses that you get from your students when you're engaging with them in these kind of topics?

Nika Simovich Fisher [19:00]

I think that I've written for— in this particular class, Publishing in Public, we're only in week 4 at the moment. But when I asked them why they selected this class and, why they— I asked them also why they thought I had pitched this class, and they were telling me that, they hear a lot about traditional publishing avenues, working for legacy media, pitching stories that way.

And then they think they hear of things like Substack or like platforms that exist, but they hadn't really thought about them together, or like other spaces that you could use to develop a point of view across Different types of platforms that exist. And I think that for them, that feels really new and inspiring to be able to rethink the format and not rely on like what a genre has been doing. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [19:46]

And when you look at the— this is kind of a little bit into a new topic, but I'm curious about how you see design and any other discipline that is at this intersection of design. How do you— how have you seen it Evolve and more so what do you, what are some of the things that looking into this new year, like what are, what are some of the things that you're drawing hope from?

Or just curious to hear your overall sentiment on how you feel within your education, within everything that you're doing. How does that, how do you see your role kind of shift depending on like, state of the world today? Like if we were to take your pulse, like what would that pulse be?

Nika Simovich Fisher [20:30]

Both cautious and optimistic. I think yeah, something that I've been considering, if we look at the recent political winners, both Donald Trump and then Zohra Mamdani won, and I think they actually had a very similar strategy in a lot of ways. They were both sort of like public like kind of populist efforts.

And I think they both did a really good job of meeting their audience where they are and going into spaces that are— that the people are able to feel recognized. They're both really avant-garde in their own particular ways, in the opposite ways, but it's certainly a strategy, I think. And the way that their visual languages look and feel are very energetic, and there's an emotional response to them.

So someone might have a really strong opinion about the president one way or the other, but at the end of the day, that's still an emotion that you hold on to. And I think the same can be said it with Zora Mondani. And I think that both of them looked at kind of vernacular forms and made it so that other people could create content.

To go along with their campaigns and feel like they were part of a movement. And so I think that's both empowering and cautionary in the sense I think that because right now, you can design by vibes. Like if you open up Figma slides and, yeah, there's so much, so many ways of designing things and kind of these like slick polish. Manners that it's really impor— like that becomes less important than having a clear point of view.

And that can look any sorts of way, but if it's telling a coherent narrative, then that's what resonates with people and also having more expression within that. So I think actually in a lot of ways that makes design kind of chaotic in a cool way. Like people can really rethink things. It doesn't need to be super slick. It can maybe be more of its own.

Take that's more customized and maybe, it becomes— design becomes more bespoke in that manner, perhaps? So in that sense, I think it's actually inspiring because I think that type of work has always been successful, but maybe now there'll be more need for it.

And then it's— I think it's cautionary. It's like what I was saying. I think it's going to disrupt. It already is disrupting labor. I think, there are fewer jobs. So I think that's hard. And I think, no one has the right answer. So trying to think of what is going to future-proof our students the most. And I really think it's about like being curious, having interdisciplinary interests, experimenting with technology.

So like even if you are someone who is very offline and like doesn't want to use AI as a statement, I think it's pretty important to try it out. And so you have an informed opinion. And also so that you can join conversations around.

Christian Solorzano [23:16]

I was reading one of your articles online and you introduced me to this term you came up with, which is Trump spam.

Nika Simovich Fisher [23:24]

Oh, political spam.

Christian Solorzano [23:26]

Yeah, political spam. There you go. Can you talk to us a little bit about— and I mean, it's kind of what you were just talking to right now, right?

Nika Simovich Fisher [23:31]

It is. Yeah. So that was a piece I wrote for Fast Company during the last election. And I actually still really enjoy watching local news. I have a little antenna that I bought for $50 and suddenly on the TV I have All the local channels, and during that time period, there were all these infomercials coming on. And when we have when I watched the local news at night, and they were all for the Trump campaign, but they were really bombastic and satirical and absurdist.

And one in particular was this like talking trout. I think do you remember Billy the Bass? Yeah, from the 90s. Yeah, it was like that, but it was like Trump themed, and so it would just say things that he had said, and he killed like a fish. It caught my attention because I didn't know who it was for. Actually, I didn't know if it was. Like for him or against him or for whom.

And then there were other ones that were a little bit more like theatrical, like the commemorative $2 bill, like after he was shot and he was placed. And so I ended up like ordering that one. And like I spoke to the founder of the company that produces the bass. And that gentleman told me that the strategy was to appease, to be bipartisan because people can both laugh with the president or at him. And so that I actually thought was really brilliant.

The other one was a little a little bit more conservative. Like the catalog that came with that dollar bill was like weird, like holiday merch, like St. Patrick's Day and like guns and I don't know, it was like a very like unusual mix of things you might purchase or collect. But what I thought was most compelling about this was that there were so many of these products on different parts of the political spectrum, but they all felt branded.

Like I thought they were all part of the Trump campaign initially.

But actually none of them were. So not one of them was affiliated with a presidential campaign. Campaign at all. And I think that is what is like the current state of design, is where other people can like see something and design something that goes along with it that doesn't look like maybe one-to-one, but still the overall message is specific enough so that people can kind of join in and participate. Yeah, so that's what the phrase like political spam was.

It was like all these things that were being turned out constantly, it seemed like, but they all felt like they could go together.

Christian Solorzano [25:43]

And I think the Trump administration— I always get a I find their Instagram to be so funny because it's clear that they're aware of trends and kind of what the people are talking about. And they share memes and like they share— the White House account shares memes. And then they're aware that it's strange that the White House is sharing memes. So they'll make a post about how the White House is sharing memes.

And it's just so strange to see that everyday vernacular, language be adopted by this, administration that's supposed to represent, this powerful country.

Nika Simovich Fisher [26:27]

I know. I think that's really telling. And yeah, that's all— that's an interesting take too, that they're like oddly self-aware. But it really is a form of propaganda too, is it's like suddenly like leaning into these types of shared GIFs and AI-generated content and really using it to say things that a lot of people feel offended by. But I think there's something powerful. Again, I don't know if it's a good thing.

I don't think it's a good thing, but it's like suddenly like these types of official communications are decidedly non-presidential. They're kind of meeting people where they are and feels lighthearted. It did work for Zoran Mandani too. So I think again, it's like current state that we're in.

Christian Solorzano [27:04]

What would you say is your definition of utopia? What would a perfect world look like for you? What do you feel like you are pushing against through a lot of the stuff that you do? And what kind of outcome are you desiring from your practices?

Nika Simovich Fisher [27:21]

Freedom, perhaps. I really like what I was saying earlier about putting different pieces, like different voices together, some that are more researched, some that are more casual, and really thinking about what they say working together. To me, that's— I don't know if utopia is a word I would use, but I think it's inspiring and hopeful. And I think that it shows people that you don't need to fit a certain genre to be taken serious.

Something that was really meaningful for me, I wrote this article about AI and spirituality for Wired a few years ago. And that one, when I first told people that I was interested in how AI is impacting like astrology or spiritual practices, I felt like people like rolled their eyes and like they just didn't wanna hear it. They thought it was so frivolous. And I think that with that piece, I'm really proud of the different people that I profiled.

It was like an academic who wrote one of the only pieces of astrology in the academic journal from the '70s. Then I spoke to like this really thoughtful AI researcher was like a younger individual, and then also TikTok tarot card readers, and also a Gabon healer that did all these kind of spiritual readings offline.

And so all these different ways thinking about how spiritual practices are changing could suddenly be part of the same conversation. And so I think that's very democratic and it really allows people to be themselves and then have a seat at the table. So to me, that's something that I always want my students to feel like no matter where they're from, whatever their interests are, they can have something interesting to share about it, to contribute. Maybe that.

Christian Solorzano [28:57]

Yeah. And that was a piece that you wrote for was that the Creative Independent or was that something else?

Nika Simovich Fisher [29:04]

No, it was for Wired. But I was telling you about it because I actually saw that it gets cited in like theology academic journals. So that was, to me, that was really meaningful in an interesting way because I wrote that piece based on my own interests. And I think the way it's written is very much in my voice, which is sometimes casual and a little bit playful. And it was interesting that someone needed me, that the university was like a very formal yeah, take.

And so it was cool that you can just talk the way you normally talk and have— and then kind of take it in context.

Christian Solorzano [29:38]

And I also read that you have a daily writing practice. Can you talk to us about that? Because I used to have a daily writing practice, and ever since— I mean, it's been years now— like, yeah, my writing practice was at peak, it was when I was commuting to work, like pre-pandemic, because I'd be on the train and there's nothing you can do on the train but sit there.

But I've been trying to get back into writing and I've been doing it here and there for the last like couple of years now. But I'm curious about like, what are you— what do you write for yourself? What are some of the things that you find yourself like sketching or writing? And maybe tell us what you wrote about today.

Nika Simovich Fisher [30:15]

So I wrote about okay, so, well, it's like, it's really interesting because I hear people want to do this. And for me, it's just something I just enjoy doing. I think it's a way of dealing with anxiety sometimes. And also sort of just processing, the interactions that you're having, you know things that come up with work or stress or whatever, or your interests and just putting them together in a way that is casual and nonjudgmental. And so it's most days.

I also hate things that are like, I'm on a schedule for me, that never works cuz it doesn't feel fun. When I don't have any like rules for myself, I end up like going to the gym all the time.

And like those, so it's easier for me to not have it be daily or not. But I had this today, what I wrote about was this interesting moment. I, so like I said, I came this morning from Kalamazoo and I dropped off my rental car and then I called the Uber from that spot to take me to the train station, the Amtrak station. You should, to get on the train for Chicago. And I realized I was probably gonna miss the train.

And yeah, so I called over and I'm waiting and I'm looking and the train is supposed to leave at 10:26. And I think it was like, I got in the car at like 10:10 or something like that.

So it was really tight, but the driver was telling me a little bit about himself and, I told him the situation, like if we could get there, that would be great. But, no pressure. Safety first. But he was interesting. He, I guess he's a retired person who was in the armed forces, like in the military, and then also worked for the Department of Defense. And he like took this as a mission.

Like he took it so seriously and he was like driving really fast and then he would be like, hold onto your seat. Like counting down counting down like the crosswalk when it was, it was like when you were at the pedestrian crossway. He is like counting it down audibly and he was like telling me it's gonna be a miracle if I make it. And then he is like, well, I know where it is.

And he pulls up right next to the train and I got out and I was literally the last person and I got on like in the final minute and it was so glorious. Like it felt like my life was like an action movie.

And that guy was such a character. So I think when I write for myself, I really try to spotlight these kind of playful moments that happen in real life. I love when it's just like a stranger who kind of, does something kind of memorable and writing things in a lot of detail so that I can reference it again. But it also sort of helps you take joy in the present moment. So that's what I would say.

Christian Solorzano [32:51]

And you're a nostalgic person, right?

Nika Simovich Fisher [32:53]

I try not to be, actually. I think it's hard when there are moments in your past that were really lovely and you wish so hard to go back to those times and you can't, and it's hard. And we have so many reminders, like on our phones. If you document things in as much detail as I do, like it's easy to go back to the entries and reread things. And I think that's like a, it's hard because you get kind of stuck in that.

So I think that I really try to be really focused on the present.

Christian Solorzano [33:24]

And are you a sentimental person?

Nika Simovich Fisher [33:25]

I don't know that I would use that word specifically, but I suppose you could interpret a lot of what I do in that manner. I think even taking the time to reflect on these people who came into my life so briefly. There is something sentimental about that.

Christian Solorzano [33:40]

Because I do feel like sometimes the thing that I find fascinating about writing is that it requires a sense of self-awareness to kind of trust that you're able to capture, whatever it is that you're trying to capture, whether it's a story or a memory. And sometimes what could be challenging is finding the words or the vocabulary to like pin that moment down.

Nika Simovich Fisher [34:08]

I wonder if part of that is I spoke a different language at home, a different language at school.

And so I feel like maybe there was like always this like back and forth process going on where I felt like I had to translate things quickly and Maybe there's part of that, but that for— I don't feel like I've had that challenge, but I'm always surprised when people say like, oh, I would like to have this like daily writing practice, but I don't know what to write about.

But maybe again, it's a kind of a way of describing what happened, how you're feeling, like being really honest again.

Christian Solorzano [34:40]

Yeah. Sometimes when I sit down to write, I find that I'm writing the same thing like every single day and I'm just all right.

Nika Simovich Fisher [34:50]

Like Groundhog Day or something? Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [34:53]

It's like, all right, this is Christian again. Same as last week.

Nika Simovich Fisher [34:56]

I bet like there's all sorts of little things that happen though. Maybe like thinking about like the most tiny thing that was new in that day and like really like building out a whole story about it could be interesting.

Christian Solorzano [35:09]

The other, there was a, it was 2 weeks ago, I was at a talk and there was a writer and she was talking about how She shared with us a story where she was— she closed her eyes and she imagined her mom laying in bed between shifts. And her mom was a healthcare worker. So she was talking about how her mom was laying in bed. She smelled like cigarettes.

She didn't take off her uniform because her uniform was such a pain to take off and then put back on. So she's sleeping. She's like laying in bed. She's trying to not clench her fist because she's been so tense all day. And she just, she painted this like perfect scene of this very mundane moment. And I find it, I find that having the ability to take one little tiny instance and just kind of blow it up into this majestic moment.

And I find that to me, that's the part of writing that I feel is to be the most beautiful, is when you can take ordinary stuff and you can turn it into a poem or a song or something.

Nika Simovich Fisher [36:13]

Yeah, it's also a way— I think with both design and writing in that sense, it's kind of about being sensitive.

Christian Solorzano [36:19]

So are you a sensitive person?

Nika Simovich Fisher [36:20]

I think I'm a sensitive person. I feel pretty confident about that.

Christian Solorzano [36:25]

You're confident about being sensitive?

Nika Simovich Fisher [36:27]

Yeah, I feel like— I think I'm like very aware of how I'm feeling. I don't feel confused about my emotions very often, and I don't so that makes me like super clear in a lot of ways, but I don't know, sometimes maybe it would be good to just like chill out and not be so tapped into how I'm feeling. But—

Christian Solorzano [36:48]

And is that something that just came natural to you, or is that something that you kind of had to work on throughout your life? Or—

Nika Simovich Fisher [36:54]

I think it's, I think it's always been how I've been, but I think that I didn't see it as a strength for a really long time. And now there's more self-acceptance about it. But, I was just thinking about how you said you would write the same thing over and over again. And I wonder, maybe that, that's okay. I was— It is okay. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [37:16]

But I would just say I don't find it interesting.

Nika Simovich Fisher [37:18]

I think that's the thing too, is it's like, interesting to whom? And it's like, then it kind of comes back to like thinking about audience. I read my entries and for the most part I do find that interesting to me. But I would never want anybody else to read them.

Christian Solorzano [37:30]

Yeah. So do you write on your phone? Do you— is it on your phone or do you write on paper?

Nika Simovich Fisher [37:35]

Neither. I write, I type, and I use Pages. Where do you write?

Christian Solorzano [37:39]

I like to do notebook. Yeah. And sometimes I'll text myself. I know that there's a Notes app, but I have 2 Apple accounts and I never know which one I'm on. So it just—

Nika Simovich Fisher [37:50]

Yeah, that's confusing.

Christian Solorzano [37:51]

And it also, I don't know, I don't know if you feel this way, but I get really worried about Storing important things on my computer because I'm like, if a computer disappears or if something crashes, then it could be gone forever. And that's what I find to be a little terrifying about social media is that I feel like you don't really own your content on there. And I've had so many friends that their accounts have been wiped. And that's why I'm like an obsessive screen— screenshotter.

Because I'm just I need to save this. So I like to write on paper. And I love doing it. And it's funny because sometimes I will flip back through the pages and I can't even read my own handwriting. So I'm like trying to make out like, all right, Christian is saying like this thing again. So it's interesting.

Nika Simovich Fisher [38:35]

That is interesting. Yeah, I have a hard time reading my handwriting too. It's sketchy. Also, I think I like having it all— my typeset is just like in Arial and it's in I think like 12-point. Yeah, I have like kind of like a very clear and subtle system to it. But what's nice about it being on Pages is you can do Command+F and like find, things.

So really, if there's like an astrological event happening, sometimes they'll say, paid attention to what happened on this date 3 years ago. And I'm like, oh, have that. It's like easy to find. Whereas I think for me, the writing part of it would just be messy, like for me. And not as useful.

Christian Solorzano [39:16]

Yeah. So how often, so you're writing every day and is there, is there a limit? Is there I know you mentioned you don't like rules, so, right. So it might be a few sentences one day and maybe longer another day.

Nika Simovich Fisher [39:31]

Yeah, I think that's true. And it's like most days that I write. And so like I said, I don't have any rules. Most of the time I do feel like writing and then sometimes I feel like writing multiple entries in a day and then sometimes I don't. And then sometimes a couple days go by and then you like kind of stuff accumulates and so it's much longer. And I also like what you were asking about the writing on social media.

When I'm traveling, I'm often just trying to be in the moment and kind of going out and not being, not having a lot of downtime to write. So when I was in Serbia and Bosnia and Croatia this past summer, I thought about making it an even more digestible format. And so like I was using the Notes app and posting short vignettes of what I was experiencing so that I would kind of keep up with this writing practice.

And it was sort of an experiment, and if, that would be effective in the same way. But it was also sort of taking this moment of writing in the style that I write for myself for a bigger audience and see how it worked.

Christian Solorzano [40:33]

Yeah. And what do you— do you, do you tend to care about the reception that you get when you post like these things?

Nika Simovich Fisher [40:41]

I think you always notice it, but I feel like for me, I just want to know that I am happy with what I posted. And that's like the number one thing that I prioritize. And then it's interesting when people kind of interact with it.

This for the one in when I was in Serbia, people would— I wrote about like when you're in Starbucks there, they— it's the same exact experience except they ask you if they— if you want the water or the milk to be warmed up. And just I think growing up in general, there was always this like fear of being cold in my mall and say like you can't have like wet hair or you can't walk around barefoot.

And so it just like immediately reminded me of those experiences. And so when I was younger, I felt like it was really belittling and like they didn't say these things to my brother and they were all kind of circling around fertility issues that would happen.

So it felt very anti-woman in a way. But now like I, like I live by myself and so I went to serve you and then you're in Starbucks and they're asking you the same question. It really felt like almost like a type of care. And then it felt very like a warm hug in a way.

But anyway, I posted about that and then people from other like maybe non-American houses, households, wrote to me and said they had similar experiences and they kind of had different feelings about it. And also it kind of changed over time. And so that was really meaningful. It was nice to say something honest and then have other people share something personal with you.

Christian Solorzano [42:11]

In Mexican culture, there's a lot of those as well.

Yeah. I remember for me it was ani, like never walk barefoot on the floor because you'll get sick. Don't Get— don't get a haircut and then go swimming. Which I'm like, that doesn't even make sense. What? And there's also like, never put like your knees, like your bare knees on the ground either, because you'll get sick. The floor is too cold and like your knee, your bones will feel the cold and it'll like screw up your body in the future.

And it was always like just wait, Christian. If you keep doing this, you're gonna, you're gonna face the consequences when you get older.

Nika Simovich Fisher [42:51]

Yeah. There's like this like fear that's instilled. And it also, like we were talking about sensitivity, like that kind of has this projection of sensitivity and like a fragile, yeah, that's so warped. I don't think, I think people are resilient.

Christian Solorzano [43:02]

So like every now and then when there's like, if like my knees hurt or something, I'm like, oh, it's, I should have listened to them. Like they were probably right about something.

Nika Simovich Fisher [43:10]

But yeah. Yeah. I mean, some, there's something about it that's like really charming. So you don't take it so personally, but if it, if you're being told that over and over when you're younger, who don't have a lot of freedom. Maybe it feels oppressive.

Christian Solorzano [43:24]

Yeah. So what were you like as a teenager?

Nika Simovich Fisher [43:26]

As a teenager?

Christian Solorzano [43:28]

Yeah.

Nika Simovich Fisher [43:28]

I spent a lot of time online as well, and I really wanted to be like a MySpace kind of like scene person, but I didn't understand how to do that performance, so that like commitment. And also, you don't have your own money and stuff.

So I think it would be harder to transform yourself in that same ability. But I know that was something that was interesting to me. I took art all 4 years of high school. I wasn't very happy. It wasn't like the happiest time. And I was a cheerleader. Oh, you were a cheerleader? Yeah, I was a cheerleader. So those were just some things. Okay.

Christian Solorzano [44:10]

And one of the things that I we're recording this in a school and I love Similar to you, when I was in— I just always hated school and I was like a terrible student for most of my life up until college.

And but I still have this like aversion to education and like anytime I feel like there's some authority that's like telling me to do something, even if I, if I trust their judgment, it's like just the— just because they're telling me to do something, I like, I don't want to do it.

And I feel like my biggest critique of academics is that there's and I was actually talking to a friend earlier about this because we're doing, we're hosting this event next week at this studio in Chicago. And, like there's gonna be 4 moderators and they're in the beginning, they're gonna be introducing themselves. And I find that sometimes designers or just people in general, they always introduce themselves with like their like titles or their whatever.

I'm a designer and like I do this and I do that. And I'm curious about like, if you had to describe yourself without using any of those terms, like an educator, designer, like whatever, how would you describe yourself? Or what's yeah, I'm just curious about how you would describe yourself to someone that maybe doesn't speak our language.

Nika Simovich Fisher [45:27]

So is the question how would I describe myself without referencing anything work-oriented?

Christian Solorzano [45:33]

Yes.

Nika Simovich Fisher [45:34]

Yeah. I think that I would describe myself as someone who is resilient. I would say that I am hardworking and then say I'm thoughtful. I think those 3 words come to mind. And I also, I think something about, oh, I also think I'm brave. I think I take risks in my own personal life. And maybe like something that's not related to the work I do, but I do a lot now is dance.

And I'm certainly definitely not as strong as I am a designer or writer in that sense. But it's been really lovely being a beginner or like newer at something.

We were talking about words and vocabulary. You were saying when you write, you don't know how to put things together. It feels like that in dance when you take all these different styles and then suddenly you're learning that choreographer's style and like it really is just like their vocabulary. It's like they have some things. And so you keep going to the same class and you learn more of their words.

And then you take another class and there's different words. There's some overlap and you're kind of building this vocabulary of movement. That's been really valuable to me. And I see myself in a really— in a way that's really not professional because, we don't really talk about what we do outside of dance. And then in the classes I take, they're people that are professional performers.

And so, it's like a very different level of experience. But what's really fascinating to me is that even if you are someone who's a little, who has less words in their vocabulary at the moment, you can still interpret it and make it really beautiful and fun to do and be present. So something about that whole experience feels like how I would describe myself.

But yeah, it's, it is hard sometimes to kind of divorce or just step away from being solid in the professional space, perhaps, and then not having that to fall back on.

Christian Solorzano [47:30]

It's hard because so much of what we do is like, you can't, you can't just turn your brain off because you're just like embedded in it. It's like you're like in a pool of gel and everything. You're just everywhere you touch, it's like all this stuff. So that's what I'm curious about asking people, how would you describe yourself if you did not have all these titles to fall back on? Yeah.

Nika Simovich Fisher [47:55]

I just tend to research things and really think about things in sort of an analytical sense. That is really helpful for me professionally, like when I'm doing strategy work or design work or journalistic work, like really taking the time to fact-check things and research things that pull all these different things together. But sometimes it's overwhelming in conversation, I find.

But for example, I take a lot of classes and sometimes there's like this performance of sexuality or like femininity in them. And I just like find it so fascinating how it looks so different on different people, how they kind of identify different gender expressions, body types. And then like some classes feel interesting to me or more interesting than others. And a lot of times it has to do with the curation of the playlist.

Like for example, some of these like heels classes and things like that, I feel like it's often Beyoncé that is the music. And I like Beyoncé, but that's like one certain genre. And so I find it interesting when you take a class and there's like a mix of like rock and roll or like— Eighties music.

Christian Solorzano [48:56]

Walk us through like a typical day in your life when you're not traveling for conferences. How do you, how do you split your time across all these things that you do?

Nika Simovich Fisher [49:05]

Okay. Yeah, I wake up and I have a little dog. His name is Oberon. He's a Pomeranian.

Christian Solorzano [49:11]

How long have you had your dog for?

Nika Simovich Fisher [49:13]

I've had him for 7 years. We get up together and I make coffee and I take him out and then I feed him and then I usually will write at that time. That's my favorite time to write. And then I'd say maybe that's like an hour, and then I start working. And depending on what day it is, that could be taking on like new client calls, for example, meeting with past or current students. I do a lot of Zoom meetings about work, so things like that.

And then there's a lot of prepping and planning for classes so then, it's like outreach, they're finding speakers to bring into a class, just getting the notes prepared for the session or grading. I'd say like that those academic things take up a lot of my time. On different days, if there's like a design project, I try to focus just on the design. I try to— I really like having a variety of types of work I do because I get more doing one.

But on a weekly schedule, I kind of change it up. So if I'm doing design one day, maybe I'm only taking meetings the next day or something like that. And then in the evenings, I like to take either barre or like dance classes. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [50:22]

How's your attention span?

Nika Simovich Fisher [50:24]

How's my attention span? I don't know. I think that I think I get distracted easily. And sometimes the Pomodoro method really helps me. Like when you set aside like 15 minutes.

And then you just do work, take a break. That's been really helpful for me. But it also, it's all very like moody for me. Like if I'm in a bad mood, sometimes it's really hard for me to get myself to do the work. But then once I'm on it, then it's helpful. Yeah, I don't know. It just depends on how I'm feeling.

Christian Solorzano [50:55]

And what are your antidotes to like a bad mood?

Nika Simovich Fisher [50:58]

I think exercise and also sort of just getting things done. Like even if it's like a small thing that you can do, like even if it's just like an email and be celebrating that win sometimes, it's like we send so many things like on autopilot that I think it's good to kind of take stock of all of the interactions that you do. But yeah.

So I think maybe just narrowing the scope and then trying to get some things done so there's momentum and then you can build on it.

Christian Solorzano [51:26]

What do you usually surround yourself with when you're focused or working?

Nika Simovich Fisher [51:31]

It's just privacy. I really, I have the option of doing work at school or not. And so most of the time I'm at home doing my work because I can. I just enjoy being in my own kind of space. I have a pretty small apartment. But I have like one desk and then that's like, I have a monitor there.

Christian Solorzano [51:48]

And what does your algorithm usually serve you?

Nika Simovich Fisher [51:50]

It really is like dance videos. I feel so— I see so many both in like the studio that I go to and like other people. And I think it's inspiring overall, but sometimes, yeah, it feels a little, a little much. And I think it's misleading because that's sort of something I do for fun and fulfillment versus like it being more professionally oriented, which it was. More so maybe a year ago or two.

Christian Solorzano [52:11]

What brings you the most joy?

Nika Simovich Fisher [52:13]

I think, yeah, I really think it's dance. I think dancing with people and being kind of seeing this growth and personally and just being able to be confident in where you are like that. That's been like a huge source of joy and really connecting to music in a different way. I really love my dog and I also really get excited that, students taking this class, they chose to do it. It's an elective. And then some of the students worked with me previously and they came back.

So that was really meaningful and it made me really happy that, because you never know how people are receiving your work. And so that felt really special. So I think when students say that, something— I got an email from a former student that said that I introduced her to Arena and like thinking about design, and she continues to think about this and she wanted to get in touch. But that was really meaningful, these kind of connections you have.

And I think like friendships that I've had that have stayed in my life for many years, even in different forms, like maybe there's like different seasons of those friendships. I'm really grateful for those.

Christian Solorzano [53:17]

Yeah. What would you say is like the quality of like good friendship? Like what makes up, what makes a good friendship?

Nika Simovich Fisher [53:28]

I think showing up when it matters. I think that I don't have that many friends that I speak to on my— or like every day. I really don't. But I think that I do have a lot of people in my life that are there in different moments, and I'm really happy that there's that continuity. So I think that is really meaningful. And I also think this ability to just like cut leaves like leave space and be equal.

Like I'm not like it's a non-competition, not competitive and be happy for people's wins. I think that. And I mean, it depends on the type of friendship, but I just, yeah, you see different sides of your personality. And you can feed that, honestly.

Christian Solorzano [54:15]

Yeah. And what makes you mad?

Nika Simovich Fisher [54:16]

Like a really little thing. It's like when you're walking behind someone who's walking at like a much Slower pace than you. That is so annoying. That annoys me. And I think I think that sometimes my patience could be a little bit higher. Sometimes, when you're in New York City for a long time, just there's a lot of people everywhere. And I think, yeah, sometimes that becomes annoying.

Christian Solorzano [54:40]

Do you feel like you're— you'll be in New York for much longer?

Nika Simovich Fisher [54:43]

I think so. I really love it despite, the— like, if you're having a bad day and, you're stuck in, a subway that's packed, it doesn't but I like, those are, those are small complaints overall. I feel really lucky to live in New York. I've lived there for 16 years. It's just longer than I've lived anywhere else in my life. Both of my parents, they're divorced, but they both moved back to Belgrade separately. So they're both there.

And then I have a brother who's in Los Angeles and I really don't know where else I would live. And I really like it and it's pretty easy to get to Belgrade from there.

Christian Solorzano [55:13]

Okay. And what are you, what have you been listening to lately?

Nika Simovich Fisher [55:18]

I've been listening to Somber. Somber. Have you seen him? He's like this new artist who's about like 20 years old, and he has like this really nice way of dressing. He's really a tall guy and he's striking. He has like dark hair and fair skin, and he wears these like kind of bedazzled suits or like oversized suits. But he has like— he's very romantic for someone so young. And so I've been enjoying those songs.

Christian Solorzano [55:43]

What about— what have you been watching?

Nika Simovich Fisher [55:44]

I watched Adolescence, which was really powerful. It's like about this kid who he gets— I don't want to spoil anything, but he's accused of killing a classmate. And so it's— but it's not a murder mystery, and it's like a really emotional show, and it touches on issues in tech, like how technology influences youth, which I think is significant. But what I appreciate about it is that it didn't lean into like a moral panic. It just framed it as like one part of this situation.

That's really tragic. And then it really showed the family dynamics of how this happens and how it impacted the family. But it also kind of avoided things like an overt cause and effect. Like it wasn't like an abusive family and so it was interesting. I really appreciated the nuance. Yeah, I watched that. And then I watched it's from 2016 and it's a show. The name of it, I forgot the date.

It's like 11/23/63 something, but it's like one of those— do you know what I'm talking about?

Christian Solorzano [56:57]

Oh, is it Stephen King? Like James Franco's in it. JFK's assassination. So good.

Nika Simovich Fisher [57:02]

It's so good. I mean, I like, okay, I have kind of a weird problem, or it's not a weird problem, but I just wasn't really sure why that was the one historical event they wanted to fix or retrieve. But if you kind of stop worrying about that and just like let it be.

Christian Solorzano [57:17]

The ending is insane.

Nika Simovich Fisher [57:18]

Yeah. It seems really silly. But I loved that show. I just watched that too. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [57:26]

The other day my brother and I, my brother and I are huge Elvis fans. And we were thinking, we were talking about like the impact that Elvis has had on culture. What would happen if Elvis would have never been born? And so many things, like the Beatles probably would have never existed, and like all these big bands and like fashion, like so many things would have been so different if just one person was not around.

Nika Simovich Fisher [57:48]

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I think I like that as a theme. I watched this other TV show last year called Being Erica. And it was from 2009, and it was sort of a similar concept, but it's like this woman who's in her early 30s, and she's able— she starts working with this therapist who like is able to kind of put her in different time periods of her own life.

She's not allowed to like really change anything in a substantial way, but she can kind of play things out and kind of reassess and interpret them. I don't know, it's a little cheesy at the beginning, but I also thought it was really good.

Christian Solorzano [58:21]

My New Year's goal always is to watch more TV.

Nika Simovich Fisher [58:24]

More TV.

Christian Solorzano [58:24]

And I like never, I can never do it.

Nika Simovich Fisher [58:26]

Is that your resolution this year?

Christian Solorzano [58:28]

Yeah, it's been, that's been my resolution for like the last 4 years. It's always like, I wanna watch more TV. My attention span for like television is so short.

Nika Simovich Fisher [58:36]

Yeah, I know what you mean. That's sort of why I like the local news. Even those like award shows, I like watching them live.

Christian Solorzano [58:44]

I do like the radio.

Nika Simovich Fisher [58:45]

Yeah. Yeah, me too. I play WBGO, which is like the local jazz. Station, and when I leave my dog at home, I turn that on for him. So he's a big South fan too.

Christian Solorzano [58:55]

I was talking with a friend the other day about— we were talking about a movie and we were joking with each other that at some point, you'll probably just get like a 30-second TikTok clip on like anything you could think of, where people like don't have the patience to watch something that's like, a full-length film. And I don't like that idea at all.

And I also don't like, sometimes you'll see it happens a lot with reading, like people that don't like to read, there's like these apps where like it'll give you like the top points from this book.

Nika Simovich Fisher [59:28]

Or like Cliff Notes.

Christian Solorzano [59:29]

Yeah. And it's like, to me, that's my worry about technology is that it's just gonna, it's gonna destroy and like eliminate our tolerance for like patience.

Nika Simovich Fisher [59:40]

Yeah, that is interesting. I really value concise and being economical with language, for example, and really kind of communicating things quickly. And I also think there is something exciting and motivating because when you write short things, it builds momentum for something bigger, or maybe they turn into something bigger. And to me, that's always been like an accessible entry point. So I actually I enjoy content, but I hear you.

I think people are still interested in taking time to see things and spending time with them as long as it's— I think like with the students, I find that they like to read and—

Christian Solorzano [60:21]

Yeah. And in Chicago there has been, and I'm sure it's probably happening in New York as well, but there has been this revival of analog media. I know CDs are making a comeback and I mean, even like VHS players are like, their prices are going up on eBay. And here in the city, there's been so many new listening rooms. People just want to listen to music. Listen to an entire album in the company of other people.

Nika Simovich Fisher [60:55]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, that also is like maybe people want to be going to events more in general and that being a form of publishing too. I came across the work of Gael at Eye Tor recently and he runs this practice of creating events that are— it's like kind of like a publishing practice. But he had— he was just featured in the New York Times for this Valentine's Day wrestling match event, for example. And it's like for Gen Z.

So it's like if you're between the ages of like 18 and 24 or something, you would come and then you were supposed to talk to people and then pick someone you would actually like to fight. And then they went into like the wrestling match area. I came across his work because he wrote this article about if all events are slop events now. And he was kind of talking about how things are going to be meant to be viral and sort of mix up of things.

But it really just shows that people want to go out and connect with one another. And so by nature, analog has like a physical form off screens.

Christian Solorzano [61:51]

Yeah. Yeah, that reminds me of a guy I see on Instagram that he'll make these posts and he'll be like challenging one of his followers to like a fight. And then people comment like, I'll fight you. And then they'll—

Nika Simovich Fisher [62:06]

Like a real fight?

Christian Solorzano [62:06]

Yeah, like a real fight. And then they'll like meet up somewhere and like there's a whole, there's cameras there and it's the content creator fighting one of his followers and it's like a real fight. Like it's like violence. And then at the end, they like hug it out and he's doing it until one of his followers is able to knock him out. That's his goal is like he wants to get knocked out by one of his followers.

Nika Simovich Fisher [62:29]

Well, that doesn't seem very safe.

Christian Solorzano [62:31]

It doesn't. It's just a bunch— I mean, it's a bunch of dudes and that's kind of what the vibe is. Yeah, I'm into it. I think it's funny. I mean, I find it entertaining.

Nika Simovich Fisher [62:42]

Yeah, well, it's interesting because it's not like choreographed in any way. It was like actual wrestling.

Christian Solorzano [62:46]

They did one and it was like right near the Eiffel Tower and it's just like this beautiful backdrop.

Nika Simovich Fisher [62:51]

Oh my God.

Christian Solorzano [62:52]

And he dresses up as a Joker, so it's like from Batman. Yeah, so As we wrap up, I'm curious to hear if there's anything coming up in 2026 that we can be on the lookout for. I think you and I connected— you messaged the Chicago Graphic Design Club Instagram, I think it was 2 years ago. You were going to be in the city and you asked if there was anything going on that week and there wasn't.

And then I feel like that's when we connected on Instagram.

Nika Simovich Fisher [63:22]

Yeah, it is. Yeah, I think it's been fun to go to different cities and reach out to people actually on Instagram to say, oh, I like that. But yeah, I think my Publishing in Public class is something cool to check out. It's the class that I mentioned, but I'm also treating the course as an experimental publication too.

So I am publishing it each week on LinkedIn and then also on Instagram Stories. And I'm doing that to show students that you like anything could be a publication as long as you have an intention with it and how that can like look across platforms that already exist.

And I think it's I'd like it to be an exciting entry point for them so that, they don't have to like overthink. So that's what I'm doing. And I'm, it's always from my point of view and I'm thinking about how the class is going. I'm featuring the, some of the conversations we have with our guests in it. And I think for me as a teacher, it's really interesting because I don't usually keep notes about the classes I'm teaching as they're going.

It's just like at the end, oh, like maybe know to change a project or like it didn't work as well or something like that. But kind of taking the time to diary, to keep a diary almost each week. It shows you more of the little things that happen and what was interesting in the class that session that maybe, you might forget about.

Christian Solorzano [64:37]

And what's the best way for people to reach out to you?

Nika Simovich Fisher [64:41]

For this project, you could add me on LinkedIn, which is Nika Simovich Fisher. And then they can also follow me on Instagram, which is labud.nyc. So it's L-A-B-U-D dot N-Y-C.

Christian Solorzano [64:51]

And that means swan.

Nika Simovich Fisher [64:52]

Yeah, it means swan in Serbian. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Good job. Very cool.

Christian Solorzano [65:00]

Can you— why the name? Just out of curiosity.

Nika Simovich Fisher [65:02]

Oh yeah. So I originally started my design studio with a programmer named Dylan Fisher, and we were in a car driving back from Montauk and we were looking at in the Hamptons, there are these swans that are there and they always catch my attention. They're so striking. And then it was kind of snowy and I saw them and I researched them and they're actually called mute swans. So they're like not meant to make sounds, but then they have such a striking visual.

There are all these other details about them that I found out about. They're not indigenous to that area. They were brought over like in the 1800s to kind of beautify this like kind of upscale neighborhood. And then they've really kind of messed with the ecosystem there. And then there have been kind of petitions to like take them out, which I find heartbreaking. I'm a vegetarian. Anything that's like hurtful to animals, I really—

It really tugs on my heartstrings. And anyway, so they cause a lot of change and impact, and yet they're so stylized by default. And there's also quiet. And I think all those juxtapositions together were kind of interesting in how they were Brought— they were brought here without their will, really. And then they wanted to take them out.

I don't know, there's all this kind of complicated feelings that come up for me, and maybe I like things that kind of make me feel many different ways at once. Yeah, that was why I picked it for my design studio.

Christian Solorzano [66:21]

Cool. Awesome, Emma. Thank you for sharing the story. Yeah, and thank you for meeting with me today.

Nika Simovich Fisher [66:27]

Yeah, thank you. This was so fun, and it was so nice to meet you in person.

Christian Solorzano [66:30]

Yes. Now I know that you're like a 3D Yeah, not an avatar. You're not an AI girl.

Nika Simovich Fisher [66:38]

No. All right, well, thank you so much. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [66:42]

Thank you so much for sticking around to the end. Like I mentioned in the beginning, if you enjoy shows like these, we really appreciate your support when you leave us a rating wherever you listen. To learn more about us, visit www.chicagographicdesign.club. Thank you and talk to you soon.