Christian Solorzano [00:00]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a show by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. I am your host, Christian Solorzano, and on today's episode I will be speaking with Pedro Neves, a designer, educator, and researcher at the University of Illinois here in Chicago. And together we're going to be talking about his latest project, a to Z: Learning Through Lego and Letter Forms. An exhibition that's currently on display at the Design Museum of Chicago. So definitely encourage you to go check it out if you're around.

And this is a collaborative research initiative that brought together numerous designers from all over the world to investigate modular letterform design. And Pedro is going to be sharing the unexpected journey that took this project from a classroom assignment at UIC all the way to Lego's headquarters, where it now sits in their permanent collection.

Pedro is going to be speaking with us candidly about navigating the intersection of analog craft and emerging technology, his philosophy on teaching typography through accessible systems, and why Chicago's vibrant printmaking community has become so meaningful to his practice over the last few years. He opens up about the challenges of finding balance between teaching, research, and personal work, and offers thoughtful perspectives on building community in a city that he's been a part of since 2019.

So as always, if you enjoy conversations like this, I really appreciate your support, and I would really appreciate you leaving us a rating wherever you listen. It helps expand our reach and helps us just amplify our mission of documenting these kind of conversations and creating programming through the Chicago Graphic Design Club. So thank you so much for tuning in and enjoy the conversation. Talk to you soon. Good afternoon, Pedro.

Pedro Neves [02:11]

Hello, how are we doing?

Christian Solorzano [02:13]

Good, doing really good. Congratulations on your exhibition. That is currently on display at the Design Museum of Chicago. I feel like it's appropriate that that's the first thing that we talk about because it's so fresh. And just yesterday there was an event at UIC about it. So can you just give us a little introduction of what that project is about and kind of its inception?

Pedro Neves [02:40]

Sure. Well, I mean, first of all, thank you for having me and, for yeah, for hosting this. Yeah, the project, it's called a to Z: Learning Through Letter Forms, or Learning Through Lego and Letter Forms. And it has been a research that myself, Amira Egazi, and other people have been doing at UIC, at the University of Illinois in Chicago, where we teach, that investigates really the relationship between modular letter form design and in this case, Lego specifically.

So over the last couple of years, I've been working with students on exercises around letterform design, how to, use modular systems, historical modular systems to draw letters. That is a little bit of a kind of an easier entryway to letterforms in comparison to calligraphy or kind of like more traditional type design. And then that kind of like evolved into this project where we asked 36 designers from all over the world.

We gave them some kind of like set of instructions just so, we would have— this is legible, basically. And then myself, Amira and Shannon Morrissey, one of our graduate students, we basically spent 8 months in the print lab. Of UIC with a Vandercook press that we have. I think, Chicago and Vandercooks are spread around universities and schools. But yeah, we spent 8 months producing this alphabet. We made an edition of 100 that tells a little bit the story of teaching, of learning. And, I think.

There's a lot of behind the scenes when you make projects of that scale. That was the Den, is now on display at the Design Museum. So it's kind of just like the conclusion of this research project that first started as a small assignment, evolved into this collective, endeavor that now hopefully everyone can just yeah. And, yeah.

Christian Solorzano [05:07]

And because this is a project that is associated with Lego, did you guys have to get any permission or was there any legalities that you had to go through?

Pedro Neves [05:17]

Yeah, it's funny. I think, when I started this project, I didn't think so much about it. It was just okay, this is a small class assignment. We're just going to use, Whatever we need as we as we please. But once things start to get serious, and you know we were very lucky to had received some funding from the university to produce this book, so you know we can have all the supplies and pay for some of the work that was being done.

Then it's like okay, we it'll be nice to get some kind of like institutional support from Lego the company, and of course we don't have any contacts, we don't have anything there, so we just tried and say okay let's just. Send a cold email or call the customer service, which they take all the calls for everything other than asking for some kind of like support.

And they replied, say, we normally have a policy of saying no to any kind of project because I'm, understandably they receive thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of projects or project requests.

But they did forward me kind of like their fair play use brochure that stated like what can or cannot be done with the Lego brand. So we were like, okay, well, we're kind of— maybe you don't have— you don't want to have anything to deal with us, which is totally understandable. But I think it was actually really important for us to align with their policies. For, because one, this project is supposed to be an educational pro— project.

It's not for us to make money or to profit off. We use Lego because it's a modular system. It just happens to be Lego. I think it's just such a strong system and it's accessible. And even if you haven't played with it when you're a child, you still feel some kind of like connection or indirect connection to it, or there's some kind of a sympathy.

So when it first whole thing started, it was like, okay let's just change the title. Let's make sure that every time we use the word Lego is with the copyright symbol.

We don't call Legos because there's no plural of Lego. So it's kind of like interesting to learn these little details. But at the same, well, the thing then got a crazy turn because when we finished the project, we just moved along with it. We looked at their fair play brochure and we were like, okay, I don't think we've done anything wrong. We credited people when they were due and said that the Lego Group did not officially sponsor the project and all of that kind of things.

And when the project was done, I felt that it was still important for us to at least try to share that with them. Like we've made this book. Took us a long time. It was a collaboration between so many people that I think at least we would love you guys to see it, and you can do whatever you want with it. This is the finished product.

So in kind of a whim, I mean, I'm from Europe, so I was already in Portugal where I'm from for the holiday, for the summer holiday. And I booked a flight to Denmark with the hopes of like, okay, I'm just gonna Go there, try to see and learn a little bit more about the history of Lego because I also don't know much of it. We're just using Lego. I'm not a Lego expert.

I don't necessarily want to become a Lego expert, but I want to learn more for sure about the companies and the tool that I'm tool that we were using. And in that process, I booked a flight. I you know arranged everything, and I just sent a cold DM to a couple of people on LinkedIn. It's like we have this project. Hey, we just want someone to receive it.

We enter, we give, we leave the thing, and we go away, and you do whatever you want with it. And oddly enough, they are designers like we are, and they care about a lot of the same things that we care more individually at a personal level or at the individual level. And they're like, I mean, if you're stopping by, why don't you just come and give a small lecture?

To our design team internally and talk about the project and, share with us what you guys have been up to, because we like typography. We love letterpress too. I mean, that's not necessarily what we all do all the time, but yeah, could be, could be fun.

So at the end of the day, what ended up happening was, yeah, I got invited and I was able to bring the project and the work that Amira, Shannon, and all the designers that were part of this into the Lego Group and, as well, of course, very fulfilling to know that they have a copy in their permanent archives.

So it's, yeah, it's kind of a funny experience of like first being kind of like pushed away from this corporation, which I think now in retrospective, I think one understands why, right? There's like so many things that they have to worry about and so many people trying to profit off of their intellectual property that it was just the standard.

Christian Solorzano [10:47]

Yeah, that's incredible. I didn't know the full story. And yeah, what I, obviously the project is amazing. The thing that always bugs me though is like when the registered trademark is next to like the logo name or to the Lego name, I'm like, 'cause it just, I don't know, to me it just kind of like, it's a little speck of dust. But that's really awesome.

And I love that, to me, Lego is all— it's like for millions of people, it's the entry point into design, into building, into creating worlds. And the fact that you and your team were able to extend that to typography and make typography become an accessible avenue of expression through these Lego blocks that we're all very familiar with, I think is so incredible.

Pedro Neves [11:39]

Yeah, I think, I think I— one thing about that as well is like there's one person or a couple of people, but like one person specifically, which is Craig Ward. He ran this project called Brickfont where he on Instagram, I think he got quite popular at the time where he was, recreating existing typefaces using Lego. And he was also kind of one of the first.

Early inspirations that when I was planning on doing this as a, as a class assignment, I got up, got in touch with him and hop on a call.

This was kind of like the tail end of pandemic and we discussed a little bit of like, oh, how can we transform this idea that you're working on just, more on social media and for your own practice as kind of a side fun project into an actual, not necessarily just serious, but rigorous class assignment that would focus on letterform design.

Christian Solorzano [12:43]

Yeah. And can you talk to us a little bit about your relationship to Chicago? You're not originally from Chicago, but what brought you to this city? Because you've been here for quite some time and you've kind of become like a thought leader, established person, an educator, and like a collaborator. So talk to us about that. Chicago relationship that you have?

Pedro Neves [13:08]

Sure. Yeah, I'm originally from Portugal, grew up there, did all my early education, even my undergrad there, and ended up going to Switzerland, to Basel, Switzerland for my graduate degree, for my master's. And in Basel, there's a joint program with UIC. So there's a graduate program that you take the classes in Basel, you come visit UIC here in Chicago, and there's a lot of things that happen throughout the program that are a connection between the two worlds in a way, or the two institutions.

And yeah, so when I was about to graduate, or right after graduation, I got an invitation to teach here. Again, a lot of the times when you're about to graduate, you don't have a job. So kind of like any offer that gets on the table, you're like, yeah, why not? I mean, there's nothing holding me to Switzerland. I was also not from Switzerland.

So it was like, why not to at least experiment what it would be to teach in, first of all, and then to teach in the US, which, I'm again very thankful for that opportunity because it's a little bit of a leap of faith to just like invite someone with no teaching experience to move across the pond to come here and teach. But yeah, so this was like 2019, which is also kind of a funny time, starting here at the end of 2019.

But yeah, I've been enjoying ever since. But yeah I think the relationship with the city of course started when I visited for the first time in 2016 or 2017 as a student as part of this like joint graduate program.

Christian Solorzano [15:08]

Yeah. And can you talk to us, so you spent some time at the Weingart Design Archive. Almost 2 years. And to me, he's one of the godfathers of experimental typography and just experiment— experimental graphic design. And I would love to hear about that experience that you had. And then I also want to talk a little bit about experimental design, but first, tell us about your experience there.

Pedro Neves [15:37]

Yeah, I mean, it's I'm— I was very lucky to have had the opportunity of being part of that project. Again, I was studying as a graduate student, and it's almost like anecdotal, the story. But again, there was a job posting at the university of there was a need for building shelves. There was a room that was going to be serving for some kind of archival things, and they had they posted a student job to build shelves. And I was like, couple of.

It would be great to have that extra money. So let's apply for it. And I, we're just building shelves for some kind of like room in the school. And then at the same time, I started to take some kind of like night classes in— so in Basel, you have now the traditional Basel School of Design. Kind of like separated in the early or in the early 2000s from a trade school to kind of like a university.

So there's like 2 schools that can now be referenced as the Basel School of Design. One of them that offers more like certificates and more related to or connected to a trade school, which is the building that, it's in the history books and that people recognize. And then there's FH&W, which is where this collaborative program is located. But at the old school, at the old building, they still offer like night programs. So, after work calligraphy classes and other kind of like design-related classes.

So I start taking those calligraphy classes with Katherine Wolf, which Had been married with Weingart, and then yeah, they then remarried. But Kate was at the same time putting together you know the personal archive of Weingart, right? Because he had a second stroke, so you know he was not in his best condition. So we want to make sure that they want to make sure that there was a proper archival of.

His body of work that could be accessible to the students and to researchers at a larger scale. So I think those 2 things at the same time, this is like how it was me having a class with someone that was putting an archive together and at the same time building shelves.

For where that potential archive would end up being. That kind of like we started to create a relationship, myself, Kate, and Sonia, other person that ended up working with us. The 3 of us were kind of like working on this archive, but the goal was really to go through every single thing that we, that he had that was stored and do the traditional archival process, analyze it, ask him questions about Provenance, where things, how things were done, why things were done.

So for me it was a, I mean, I have heard of Weingart before, but I was not very much deep into its impact and before that project. So it was kind of a very good learning process for me too, in being familiarized about what is written versus what I see.

As a body of work which I think it's a lot of the times also very different, or my perception of his work and his impact is, might be a little bit different from other people just because I had access to that, Sure. Things that were not published or personal work that you could see that, a drawing that he did when he was like 8 years old already has some of the elements that you can see in the poster.

Just like not necessarily one-to-one translated, but you see some kind of traces when you see someone's full life, right? You see traces of their personality and things that are not necessarily design that you can then identify in a poster or in a technique or in a way of Thinking, making.

Christian Solorzano [20:20]

Yeah. Yeah. And that relationship that UIC had with the school that you were, that you were at, was that because Philip Buron was a student of Weingart, or how was— is that— what's the relationship there?

Pedro Neves [20:34]

Yeah, I mean, the relationship still exists. The program, I think, has been active. This collaborative program has been active for more than 15 years. I think as the relationship is started because there was a need, or in Switzerland, I think there was not, there were not a lot of masters in design, like officially accredited masters in design.

So there were of course some relationships, Philip Burton, Marshall Lawson and other people that knew Michael Renner, which is the head of the— now it's called Digital Environments Design in Switzerland, and they were all part of the same group. And I think that's when they in Switzerland were looking for a partner. And yeah, I think again, we have historically, we've had always students going to be a part of their summer workshops, either even before an official collaboration or partnership.

I think the Basel Summer Workshops have been kind of an indirect replacement or just kind of an addition to some of the things that the school was doing up until the '90s when kind of like maybe the, what was, what the school was famous for, these international programs and all of that kind of like moved a little bit to yeah, to the summer workshops as well connected to the Brissago program that Philip Burton was running alongside, of course, Armin Hoffman and Paul Rand and all these people.

But, I'm not a historian. This is just, some of the things that I've— my understanding of how things went. And yeah. And I think like the summer workshop has historically been a place where faculty, students go to Switzerland to learn a little bit more about their processes. And I think that's how the relationships kind of like evolved in a way.

Christian Solorzano [22:52]

I know that there's currently a book that's being written about Chicago design history. I don't know anything more than that. I just know that it's in the process. Yeah.

Pedro Neves [23:06]

I mean, it's really, it's, to me, it's really interesting to think about, specifically Swiss design, if we want to call it, or, because I think as someone that again has limited experience and just experienced a little bit of what it was to be a student in Switzerland and to and now to be in America where there's kind of like this the version of Swiss design that is taught and talked about to me does not match the experience I had.

And, it's almost like I like to think about there's this myth of Swiss design, what Swiss design is, or there are so many more nuances about the Zurich school and the Basel school and these different ways of thinking about design where, in Basel was a lot about the human, the human being perception was a lot about drawing, was a lot about image, the study of an image, and also relation, like personal relationships.

There was always this kind of like very warm sense of community and people wanting to just hang out post work. That to me reflect more of what was happening with Weingart and all these things more than the rigidity or like the grid or like the minimalism, which is historically attributed to them. So to me it's just really interesting to be a part of that archive, to go back to your question, because it really showed me that other side that is more like human and less mechanical.

Christian Solorzano [24:56]

In a way. Yeah. There's definitely that myth that, 'cause I was, I was watching a while ago, an interview I forgot who it was by, but they were talking about Swiss design and they were mentioning how a lot of them did not regard what they were doing as Swiss design. And it's not until like, other people start to define it as Swiss design that they start to apply all these like things, labels to the output.

Pedro Neves [25:24]

So exactly. It's fascinating.

Christian Solorzano [25:28]

So given that, it seems like you're a lot— a big focus on your work is around experimentation and technology. I even remember, I think it was 2 years ago now that you gave that talk at the Chicago Design Archive, Past, Present, and Future.

Pedro Neves [25:46]

I did.

Christian Solorzano [25:47]

And your presentation was read out loud by a computer. And I, and to me, that was a cool, like an interesting way to present a talk. And I really like when people push back against the status quo. And one of the things that I've been talking about recently with my friends is this term that we hear so often, which is experimental. And as we, and right now, the Chicago Graphic Design Club, we're about to begin the production of our 3rd issue of our magazine.

And I was thinking through what are some adjectives that I want the magazine to be associated with. And one of those was experimental, but then I stopped myself because I feel like experimental has become kind of a lazy word that we just apply. Anything could be experimental? So I've been, I've been trying to like internally figure out whether experimental design, whatever that means, is if it's more an aesthetic, an attitude, or a process. And I would love to talk about that with you.

Pedro Neves [26:59]

Sure. I think for me, I look at really as a process. I mean, if I'm thinking about an experimental coming from the word experiment, normally when you're experimenting with something, there needs to be some kind of structure, right? Like just throwing something onto the floor and see what happens.

That's not strong enough to become an experiment. There needs to be, or we need to have some kind of intention or some kind of goal, even if that's not very well defined on what that is. It's like, or an interest, an interest of experimenting with a specific tool, an interest or an intention of modifying an existing tool.

And make something with it. And to me, that intention or that it, it's more definitely related with process, right? It's the process. And also what something can be experimental for me might be something that you do professionally already for many years.

Which becomes, yeah, I mean, I think the word experimental Can also have that relationship towards like interesting or, even sometimes creative creativity that are just very vague in their definitions and can be applied in so many different ways, which is okay, I think, to be used every so often. But just saying, oh, this is experimental work, it's not enough, right?

Christian Solorzano [28:37]

Yeah.

Pedro Neves [28:37]

Why is it experimental? Is it experimental because you're mixing a couple of tools that you've never worked with, or tools that you haven't seen together, but maybe someone else has done it. Maybe they just didn't put it out there for other people to see. But I like to think about experimenting, or things that are experimental, or things that mix multiple mediums, that move between fields, disciplines.

And mix and kind of a mix and match of unexpected things. And I think that looking at other people's work can be inspiring in certain ways if you're not necessarily trying to copy them, right? If you're just looking at, okay, what is an element in this process that is interesting that could be mixed or combined? With another element from something that's totally unrelated. And then you make experiments with that by mixing. And those could be 2, those could be 3.

Those could be 100. The amount of layers depends on, again, what's your intention with that experiment?

Christian Solorzano [29:54]

Yeah, it's like a science experiment. Like if you're trying to develop some new medication, you need like controlled variables, like a placebo and like someone that, like different things to experiment around. And I'm fascinated with this question because there has been, and I don't know if you would admit to this, but spending too much time on Instagram and you just see a lot of experimental aesthetic.

And I think when I think of experimental as like a an aesthetic, what comes to mind would be the '90s, like the grunge aesthetic of like the combination of, let's say, analog with digital and like photo, like early photo manipulation. And I feel like that word has kind of become frozen in time. That I almost want our discipline or our industry to expand upon that. And maybe experimental could start to look more like AI or more of that.

Pedro Neves [31:02]

I mean, I think there's also, there's also something to be said about context, right? Because, something that could be very experimental, quotation marks in production industry and like might be totally out, non-experimental from an educational standpoint, right? Like we've done this experiments with ink and paper and scanning and the scanner, for example. It's something that we see so many times students get excited about, which is totally fair because it's something new for them.

But for someone that has been doing that for some years, that's not as exciting anymore. But if you would bring this to a context or to a project where, and we see Sparingly in the industry. Sometimes a big corporation takes on a campaign, or that for them this is so experimental because it's out of the context that where they normally operate, right?

So I think, I think it is interesting to think about as well, again, as someone that is in the classroom, is like, there is the things that we encourage our students to play with and to experiment that even our— we ourselves, myself at least don't want to experiment with, you know or don't want to include in my practice per se. But I do think context plays a big role as well of like what experimental is depending on how it's applied.

Christian Solorzano [32:40]

Yeah, definitely. And today, what are— what do you— I feel like a lot of designers and people that do what we do is often the most interesting work is pushing back against something. And I'm curious to hear from you, like in your personal work or even in your education in the classroom, what do you find yourself pushing back against?

Pedro Neves [33:10]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [33:11]

On as a means to experiment? What are, what are, what are those areas of tension that you currently you're currently working through?

Pedro Neves [33:22]

Yeah. I think to me I think to me, whenever I'm thinking about or talking to students about experimentation and, is this to pushing pushback against established notions? We can think about letter form design. An a is supposed to look in a certain way. We know historically that an a, or, let's go back to an easier, an O is kind of like a circular shape, right? Or kind of an elliptical or oval shape. But can we make an O that is everything other than.

What is expected that to look like, right? So I think I'm not a person that wants to necessarily push back vocally about, you know issues that we all have opinions on and they affect us personally and socially. But I think by the process, again, going back to the process of making and seeing, yeah, there are things that are not supposed to be together that you can mix together and there are ideas that I think a lot of people just, go to what is expected.

And okay, if that's your first idea, let's think about all the possibilities that exclude that first idea. That doesn't mean that at the end of the day, you might— we might not end up in that first idea, and that may be what ends up solving whatever you're trying to do. But I think established notions of whatever that is.

How research should be, or how or how research should be done, or how things should or could look like, and almost like encouraging to like, disrupt the brief if you want to go somewhere else that you know I don't necessarily mention. Why not? A lot of the times the briefs are. Made just to be possible to be developed within the timeframe.

Which I think it's kind of like an interesting way of approaching teaching, which is giving a setting, provide the resources give the tasks, and then just like let you navigate that process and having me on the side observing, but also being available and not letting you, if you're struggling, okay, let's think about what are we struggling and how can we again deconstruct. A lot of the times, a lot of pushback comes from deconstructing something.

And I think that's something that is very integral to the way that I, I'm a curious person and so I wanna know how things work. So deconstructing and constructing them, things again, might be related to Lego as well, weirdly enough, but mainly to machines.

And, I think how it's Made, that show that I don't know in what even TV channel where they show you how things are made in the factories, was always something that was fascinating because it Again, if you understand how a screw is made, you can find one of those mechanisms and apply in a totally different context. And that generates some level of excitement because maybe that's something you've never seen or something that you've never thought about.

Christian Solorzano [37:04]

Yeah. And how'd you, can we go back in time to your childhood or how'd you get into design? Like what was the, what was the thing that sparked that? I know before we started recording, you were mentioning that soccer was also a part of your life. So tell us a little bit about little Pedro.

Pedro Neves [37:23]

Sure. I mean, design to me is an accident, really. I'm— I don't have, I think growing up, my mom is in education, my father is a maker. He fixed everything and anything. And I think I was always around an environment that was very encouraging for me to do the things that I wanted to do. And sometimes, even thinking about high school, where in Portugal you have to choose tracks in high school.

So you go to art school, or you go to sciences, or you go to economics. And I went to arts because, I thought that would be fun. And after the first year, I asked my parents to switch to science because I hated my drawing classes. I hated drawing. And, my parents, they could have said, no, you made that decision, you have to go through it. And they allowed me to take an extra year to start again in sciences and do that process.

And By the time I got to college, and again, in Portugal, when you're applying for public universities, you have your grades and all of that. You choose your top 5, and there's kind of an algorithm that places people depending on their scores in, so you choose your top 5. If you have enough grades to be placed in the first one, you get placed in the first one. If not, you try the third one, fourth one, et cetera. And I think I got placed.

In like my fourth option, which was this like design and multimedia. I wanted more things like visual production. So being you know behind the camera, not from a filmmaker documentary standpoint, but more from a technical standpoint. You know music production or film production or TV production, and end up landing on this program of something called design that at the time I was. Not really familiar on what it was.

But what was weird was that as soon as the first couple of classes, they— it was not about being hard, but they were not a chore.

Going to school was not a chore. And I think that then also told me kind of like in a way that, hey, actually this might be the perfect place for you because Design is not as freehanded like drawing or art was for me at younger age. And we had this kind of like mechanical, industrial, oftentimes scientific methods that relate to that kind of like other level of education that I end up getting.

So it really felt comfortable from the beginning, which again, now looking back is easy to make that diagnosis. But I do have, I do think that I have a lot to thank to my parents to always been so open for me to just experiment things, to just go and not being afraid of trying and being supportive of when you fail. It's okay to try again or to try in a different way.

Christian Solorzano [40:51]

Yeah. And what other, what was, what were you into coming of age? Was it music? Was it film? What was sports?

Pedro Neves [40:59]

Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think it was what in Portugal a lot of people are interested in. Definitely sports. Football for us is, soccer in America. We still have a hard time calling it soccer. Even being here for this long. But yeah, football, you play everywhere, right? Like you play in the streets, you play with your friends in the school breaks. And of course, sometimes I'm a very tall person.

So I think due to that, there was always an incentive from everyone just to like, oh, why don't you play basketball? Why don't you play this? Why don't you play that? So I think throughout the years I've tried a lot of different sports.

And again, I think all of that relates to now the practice of design and thinking about just not being afraid of trying different things, even if you don't fully grasp them. But yeah, in high school there was also like the bands, I think, yeah. Having a high school band feels like a, was such a great experience. Again, just to think about being in front of an audience in and yeah, it was cover bands, was never serious to the point of creating my own music.

But I, but I think in general, I look at things that I'm not necessarily a Good at music, drawing, painting. Like I struggle with a lot of like hands, traditional handcraft, but I still have a deep appreciation for it. For how long it takes to make a detailed drawing for the process of crafting a ceramic. Piece with your hands or, dealing with a kiln and thinking about all these things.

So I think I would, I always had a lot of exposure to a lot of different things other than being very specifically focused on one single thing as even as a child.

Christian Solorzano [43:17]

Yeah. Yeah. I like, I, I'm very similar to you as I'm not good with my hands, but on the computer it's very forgiving because you can align, you can snap things perfect and undo and correct things to be precise. So yeah.

Pedro Neves [43:33]

Yeah. And if— yeah, go ahead. No, I was just going to say that I think the other realization on the hand and the computer relationship was when I started to learn code and how to, and then, how to code because then that opened up a realm of possibilities that, if we think in a way, it's possible to trace a line with a million points.

Right. So I might not be able to trace that line or to imagine that line, but I understand the logic behind it. And that might allow me to redraw that line with a bunch of points. Or to think about differently about that drawing from more of an algorithmic way. That kind of like re-excites at least me in terms of something that I'm not able to do in a traditional way, but can still do in this unconventional method.

Christian Solorzano [44:34]

Yeah. I saw a woman on Instagram that she posts these videos where she creates music through code. So she'll take like a popular song and then she'll code it up and she'll assign like the chord progression and the sine waves and all that kind of stuff, the waveforms. And it's just that's some next level genius stuff. How do you, how do people even do that? But yeah.

Pedro Neves [45:01]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the great thing about the current situation when it comes to technology and access to technology is that I think we have developed enough to have a massive amount of resources.

Even a couple of months ago, I was playing at a live coding event, which, it's basically, you have musicians and designers, artists that musicians are playing music and the designers and the artists are generating the visuals that go along with the music. Live on the spot with code. So you're kind of like bouncing off ideas from the music, but, I got to know Strudel, which is a JavaScript library to do music with JavaScript.

And I feel like it's becoming more and more common for people to know JavaScript by itself, right? So now that there's a library that bridges the music production yeah. With a programming language that is kind of like widely known, it feels that becomes easier even to teach, right? Because in early days of that I was learning, in 2011 when I was learning Processing for the first time, and Processing already existed for 6 or 7 years, the amount of resources were much more limited.

To what we have now. So I think that's, yes, it's the same genius of making any music, doing it with code or without code, but I'm happy that at least there's way more resources these days for people to have access to these tools with kind of a lower entry point.

Christian Solorzano [46:54]

Yeah. And the great thing about the, I, what I like about the coding in general is that it's the barrier of entry is very low. It's also free, like you to start coding. And also to your point, there's so many tutorials and videos and the community for the most part is pretty supportive. That's been my experience with that.

And, but I do, I don't know if you see this with your students, but I always get very— students come to me very worried thinking that they have to code to be a designer. And I always tell them that that's not required, but it is like a superpower if you do figure out how to at least do some basic coding. So do you have students talk to you about coding, or is that something you talk about?

Pedro Neves [47:50]

Yeah, definitely. I think, do we ask the student if they need to know how to draw to be a designer, right? I think, I think the question is exactly the same. I mean, I look at code as a tool, and like any other tool, your mind kind of changes when you use it, right? So, if I know that I'm using a pencil or a brush, I know that whatever is in my mind and in my body, those are the limitations of what can be done.

But then there's also the limitation of time and precision, right? So I, if I, if I would be drawing 1,000 lines parallel to each other with, 0.01 inches apart, we could do that. But because we would spend so be so labor intensive and so time consuming that. That idea is out of the picture, right? But code allows you to execute that idea because then you have a tool that can draw you 1,000 lines.

That, without precision. So I think when I talk to students is learning how to code is like learning any language, and it's okay if it's not for you. You might be interested in learning a specific, language, and after a couple of lessons, it's like, you know what? This is not for me. I cannot do it. I don't have a stronger reason to do it. And that's okay. Not everyone needs to love it.

But I think, I think there is a level of craft attached to code the same way that there is attached to painting, to letterpress, and to other things that just because it's digital. It doesn't mean that does not deserve the same level of care or attention, or, some people are very messy in their studios and they can operate that way. Some people are very messy when they're in their code and can operate that way.

Some people like to have tidy studios and other people like to have tidy code. So I think when we're talking about code is, yes, it is a benefit, and I think it's a benefit right now. Because or, a superpower, whatever you want to call it, because there's a lot of lack of knowledge about it at the corporate level. Less and less.

It's, but I remember when I started to get my first couple of jobs, I had that background of knowing code and knowing how web would work and all the websites. And it was a traditional graphic design studio that had clients asking For these kinds of things, and they don't know how to respond. They don't necessarily know how it completely functions and what is possible and what's not possible.

So I think a lot of, a lot of the early work was just of knowing code is just to become a better translator between what is kind of required now in a design project that was not required, 10, 15 years ago. That you can at least talk about it.

So for me, when someone's like, yes, you can be excited about coding, and if you want to include that in your practice, I'm sure you'll be able to do things that people do not know how to code can't do. But there will be a lot of things that other people that do not know about code can do that you cannot do. So I think it's just become a better translator between engineering.

And the arts that are kind of like sometimes have, because they operate in such different worlds that have some trouble communicating with each other and being that mediator. Kind of nice.

Christian Solorzano [51:38]

What would you say would be like a good initial first project for a designer that wants to dip their hand in?

Pedro Neves [51:46]

Yeah. I mean, I'm always very inspired by Zach Lieberman's Recreating the Past. It's an assignment that he does often. I think he did it at the School for Poetic Computation in New York and now at the MIT Media Lab, which, in which students recreate an existing piece of work that's artwork or design, whatever, a poster, a book cover, with the use of code.

And then add something to it that the code allows it to. So, if it's, let's say, a poster, you recreate that poster with code and then you add interaction or you add motion. But I think that, I think it's okay. We, tutorials are great to get the basics, but you're gonna be following that tutorial. And if you're using a tutorial to make work. It's just recycling an idea.

I think recreating something is kind of like a better approach because you know what the end result should look like because you're trying to recreate it. But you also need to, again, we go back to the deconstruction, you need to go part by part and understand, okay, I need to put text on a certain position with a certain size. And how do I code that? I need to make lines or dots.

Is there any math or some kind of like algorithm that this person had to come up with? And it's okay if it's not 100%. It's a recreation. It's not a replica, which is, I think it's such a nice way to put it. You're just like not reinventing, not replicating. You're just like recreating something.

And learning along the way. And I think then with experience and with time, you will start to feel more comfortable on testing your own ideas. But that's normally the kind of exercise that I like to do. This recreation of yeah, existing work.

Christian Solorzano [53:56]

And I think it also, not only does it teach you how to, how to recreate something through code, but also I feel like it's a good way to train the eye. And to like have you understand how things are positioned.

And I think, and I, and that's one of the things that I often see students struggle with where they'll, let's say, go on Pinterest to get inspiration, but then they'll pull that inspiration into their work, but it's not quite like how it should have, like it's, it, there, there's something that feels off and it's like, and then they will also get frustrated because it doesn't look as good as the reference that they were trying, to look into. Yeah.

Pedro Neves [54:37]

I mean, yeah, I think, I don't know who said this or, yeah, but, sometimes computers are kind of like dumb because they do everything that we tell them to, right? So, I think a lot of the times when we are facing a problem, mainly in coding, there's majority of the times is our problem because we're not giving the right instruction or we're not being clear enough.

In our mind, we're being clear enough, but to the computer, he's just telling us, but he's just doing what we are telling him, telling them to. So I think there's a really interesting conversation that happens when you're writing code of like, you're trying to create something and you're writing a set of instructions that you think are very clear. Yeah. And then the computer does something that's completely different than what you were imagining. And then you have, you have a decision to make.

Option one, you scrap your initial idea and you, because you like what happened there that you were not expecting, and you go with it. Or you kind of push back and, okay, let's try to, I really wanna execute what I'm envisioning and I need to change the way that I'm explaining this. And maybe I need to find a different alternative. Some are like longer, some of them are shorter, but like testing different approaches if your logic is not, effective on the first try.

Christian Solorzano [56:10]

Yeah, I like that. So can we— so right now at UAC, what are you currently teaching? I know you're teaching across different programs, right? Yeah.

Pedro Neves [56:23]

Yeah, we, a couple of years ago, we opened a computer science and plus design program in collaboration with the school of the Department of Computer Science the College of Engineering. So, students are in this kind of like in-between space where they have computer science classes, traditional, computer science classes in some design studios. And yeah, so I'm teaching a couple of those studios.

In those studios, the first studio, we are investigating all the different labs that we have at the school, print lab, fabrication lab, CNC, metal and woodworking. So basically there's like almost like one exercise crafted for each lab.

But then there's also a request to introduce some kind of like computational process into those assignments. So if we are designing a poster we're looking at, okay, one of the elements of the poster needs to be generative. Or if we're looking at the print lab and we are thinking about things like the risograph or the letterpress, recently I got a really large format pen plotter. It can do 24 by 36, so, American poster size. Pen plots.

So what happens when you're mixing a risograph print and then you have a pen drawing on top of the risograph? And that pen is going to follow either coded instructions or digital files, but you can put whatever pen you want. So it can be a brush, it can be an eraser, it can be which I think it's where these kind of like disciplines cross, which is.

Traditional design projects using the resources that the institution gives the students to ex— and faculty to explore but then have this like new element that disrupts everything. And it's like, okay, oh, I need to use some kind of like code or algorithm to make this. What does that change?

Christian Solorzano [58:35]

Yeah. Huh. That's interesting.

Pedro Neves [58:38]

Because it's much easier to grab a pen and draw it yourself, right? So when a student wants to draw With using a pen plotter to draw a single line, why are you then using the pen plotter? You can just draw it. So let's think about if the pen plotter is a requirement, what can the pen plotter do that you can't not do?

Because either you don't have the skill, or you don't have the time, or you don't have the, yeah, the knowledge yet to make it happen. But with that tool, maybe it's possible.

Christian Solorzano [59:10]

Yeah. And what are, what do you notice to be the, when you look at your students or when you look at like a question that I always like to ask is about the emerging, like the next generation of designers. And I'm curious to hear from you, like what's your, what do you think, like your students, what are they most interested in learning? And is there like, Any patterns or anything that you see that's like recurring, let's say, in the last 3 years or so that—

Pedro Neves [59:43]

Yeah, I mean, I think students get a better grasp these days of current technology than ever before. And at the same time, what that makes it is make them exciting or excited about doing things that are not related to those technologies, right? And, so if they know of the use of AI or coding or all these kind of things I think they understand it. That's sometimes better than us, better than me.

And, but at the same time, when we give them an assignment or when I give them an assignment that where they are not as I say, oh, you cannot use AI, is the opposite. Like. You're being asked to draw something with your hands or to draw a pen plotter, AI isn't gonna help you there. So I think they get excited about that break.

But then I always like to bring them back and not just, teach them this kind of like not real scenario where you can, you have to be using digital tools even if you're excited about making things with your hands, the question becomes, how do you bring that back into the digital world? Right? Like instead of just making perfect straight lines, can you make lines by hand, scan them, and then code those lines into a program or a poster instead of just doing pure—

So I think, I think the students then by themselves, they, I think they are excited about breaking away from the computer when a lot of the things that they're currently doing requests the computer to do it. And I, and I, you, I see the use of AI just as a way of making their life easier either in sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way, when you wanna be lazy and you wanna, you just wanna get an assignment out of the way.

Which can definitely be dangerous, and there's a whole lot of conversation around that. But I do think that there's a more— I don't wanna say excitement, but there's an acceptance of these are the ways that we are working in the computer, but recognizing as well the great things of working outside of it.

Christian Solorzano [62:25]

Yeah. Yeah. I know as I, as I get older, I'm starting to hate the computer more and more. Yeah.

Pedro Neves [62:35]

I think, I think the, to me is where do we find that healthy balance? Right? How can we still be excited about the things that the computer can do while not get completely absorbed by it. And you're talking to someone that we're talking this point, like someone that spends a lot of hours per day in front of their screens. But at the same time, I feel like there is something about going outside and just you know looking around you and paying attention to all these details.

I think being curious is half of the work?

Christian Solorzano [63:17]

Yeah.

Pedro Neves [63:17]

And just Being excited about the things that maybe no one else is excited about.

Being excited about a door handle or, something that's broken in a corner of a street. I think that's kind of like, I see students getting it when I see students getting excited about those little things. That's when I get excited because now they're looking, they're looking for, they're constantly looking for things, right? They're constantly a blank wall is not just a blank wall anymore. It's like, okay, how flat is the surface? Were there posters there? So there's a little hole.

What are the things that you didn't see that suddenly you are able to see because you're more curious and paying attention?

Christian Solorzano [64:01]

And what are some of the things that are, that are keeping you curious currently?

Pedro Neves [64:06]

That's a good question. I'm, I've recently been— something that I've always wanted to try is 3D modeling. And kind of like, again, making tools to me is something that is always gonna be exciting. And that either is making new tools from scratch, but also modifying existing tools or even just using tools. And I think like 3D printing for me, has kind of like unlocked something that I did not know.

It existed not in the sense of like necessarily designing it from scratch because again, that's something totally out of my league that I definitely would be interested in doing, but just the ability of building something or this machine is making something from scratch and you see it happening layer by layer. And then it's like a functional thing that can be used in so many different ways. So that's something that excites me.

And I think, I mean, I still, I still get very, get it, get very interested in coding mainly when thinking about print media, and that's something that the Lego project taught me a lot about letterpress printing. And I keep thinking, what does coded letterpress look like? Because we have— and we've been experimenting a little bit with our lab specialists on, instead of, instead of carving linoleum by hand, what if we etch linoleum with lasers?

Or what if we, 3D print or just like use this like technology that we have where the graphics are actually generated algorithmically, right? So it will be maybe a laser machine has a precision in terms of like the hatching that, yes, exposing a polymer plate would do the same thing. But that could be an interesting process to play around.

So I think that might be some of the next steps in terms of research and in terms of like interest to explore with students and outside of that too. Yeah, I've semi-recently worked on an interactive piece with Austin Watson for the Wonder Museum.

It's kind of a 6-foot interactive cube where you have like fabric on this giant cube with some type being projected. The projectors are inside of the cube, so you don't see. And when you touch on that fabric, the surface, the fabric is flexible, and there's some kind of depth sensors hidden that detect where and how much you're pressing and makes the type react to that.

So I think we're I'm at least excited to work with other people that in this kind of projects that are more unconventional and they mix these disciplines of typography, installation, technology, but also printmaking and, traditional design media.

Christian Solorzano [67:38]

That's awesome. We got to work on something together in 2026.

Pedro Neves [67:42]

Let's do it.

Christian Solorzano [67:43]

So I have a few more questions, either just like Rapid fire questions, but first question is: You talked a little bit about tools. What are what are like some tools that you can't live without? That you keep around you at all time, or just that are that are a big part of your everyday? Sure.

Pedro Neves [68:02]

Box cutter and a measuring tape. And also maybe a watch.

Christian Solorzano [68:10]

Okay. Like a time.

Pedro Neves [68:12]

Like a yeah, like a not. I don't like to look at. My phone for timekeeping.

Christian Solorzano [68:18]

Okay. Cool. What are you currently listening to? What do you listen to?

Pedro Neves [68:23]

I really love the latest Sophie Tucker album. It's called Butter. It's kind of a Brazilian— so they— Sophie Tucker is an electronic music artist, and they made a version of their album called Bread. That new album is called Butter and it's kind of a Brazilian jazz bossa nova version of all the EDM kind of like more songs. So I've been nonstop listening to that.

Christian Solorzano [68:57]

Cool. And what are you watching?

Pedro Neves [68:58]

Weirdly enough, nothing. I mean, I do watch a lot of, a lot of YouTubes and more than shows. I mean, Unnecessary Inventions is some, something that I, that I recently been going, I think sometimes you discover a new YouTube channel and you go back to their like first videos and you watch it like a show and you see like progression. And I think that has happened recently with Unnecessary Inventions for me.

Christian Solorzano [69:29]

Nice. And then in Chicago, what are some of your favorite spots to hang out at?

Pedro Neves [69:38]

Good question. I mean, I definitely, lakefront. I'm from Portugal. I grew up around water. So, I think that's something that I praise a lot for Chicago is it's not the sea, but you don't see the other side. So definitely the lakefront and, recently I think I've been enjoying a lot following what, I feel like there's such a vibrant community of designers. I mean, printmakers, that it was something that, again, I was brought up to design, not in the printmaking world.

My university, we didn't even have a print lab in Portugal. Like we would just go and send our projects to Staples to print. So now, being able to go to all of these, Public Works, Chicago Public Libraries, a lot of the things that the Chicago Printers Guild is organizing at the Art Department, at Sputnik.

There's like so many cool spots that to me, being able to see similar faces in all these different places. It's something that I've been lately enjoying more than ever and want to be kind of like yeah, just be more present in all of these different spots that, things like, yeah, the Chicago Graphic Design Club and other people organize. Because I think that's something that's great about the city.

And I know this is not a short answer to your rapid-fire question, but lakefront plus all these small little places that we have.

Christian Solorzano [71:23]

And I'll definitely encourage everyone to go see your exhibition, which is on display until January.

Pedro Neves [71:32]

Yep. 11th of January of next year.

Christian Solorzano [71:35]

So people have time. And if anyone wants to get ahold of you, Instagram works or your email as well, which is on the UIC website. Yep.

Pedro Neves [71:47]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's something that we always, at least I have to work on. It's like getting work out there. You know I think this is the first project that really again, collectively we created that is bringing a lot of visibility to the things that we do that are not related to that project.

But yeah, I wanted to thank everyone for listening as well, and for you and to the Graphic Design Club as well for all the things that you guys do to bring people. I mean, I'm part of the Discord. I'm more of a lurker than an active member, but I do appreciate, every so often go there and see what people are talking about, what events are going on, what people are sharing. And I think that's the first big step to build on other things.

Christian Solorzano [72:38]

Yeah. The Discord is so active. I'm also, funny enough, I'm also kind of a lurker. It's like I open it up and it's like already like what I was looking at is like all the way up here now. So.

Pedro Neves [72:51]

But that's great.

Christian Solorzano [72:51]

It's fun. It's really great. And I really appreciate conversations like this that not only I feel like make me a better person and just like make me smarter. And every time I speak with someone, I always take notes and I took a lot of notes today. So I will be reflecting on our conversation and also I know that this conversation is going to be really inspiring and beneficial to a lot of people. So I just want to say thank you for your time.

Pedro Neves [73:24]

Yeah, thank you so much.

Christian Solorzano [73:26]

And in 2026, which is right around the corner, let's definitely put our brains together and maybe there's something cool that we can work on together because— I'm really intrigued by this intersection of like analog and digital and emerging technology. And that's frankly, as you were talking about all these different labs, that stuff just goes over my head. Yeah. The extent of what I teach at in my curriculum is Figma. Yeah.

Pedro Neves [73:58]

I mean, but what if, what can be the weird Figma things that can be done? Like what are, you click on a button and then that drags you to like a totally unexpected function or, like even Contradicting what UI is supposed to do. You turn a slider in one direction and the mouse goes on the opposite direction. I don't know. There's just so much fun that can happen in those spaces too. Well, let's keep the door open. Sure. Absolutely.

Christian Solorzano [74:31]

Sounds good.

Pedro Neves [74:32]

All right.

Christian Solorzano [74:35]

Thank you so much for sticking around till the end. I appreciate it. And as I mentioned in the beginning of the episode, if you leave us a rating wherever you listen, it really helps grow this podcast. So thank you so much, and we'll talk to you soon.

Pedro Neves [74:54]

Goodbye.