Christian Solorzano [00:06]

Hi, it's Christian Solorzano, and you are listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club. This is a show where I interview graphic designers based in Chicago to better understand their processes, philosophies, and stories. In this episode, I have the privilege of speaking with Design practitioners and educators Sieren and Guy. They share with us their collaborative dynamic, the story of how they met while studying at UIC in the '90s, the emphasis they place on looking for inspiration outside of design, and so much more.

We hear about their approach to teaching and the ways that they foster curiosity. In their students. And overall, this is just a really fun conversation full of rich dialogue centered around craft theory and practice, which the Chicago Graphic Design Club just loves. So I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed the conversation with Sieren and Guy. All right, welcome Sieren and Guy. Very pleased to be speaking with the both of you.

I want to start our conversation here by asking the question of if the both of you were in an alternate reality and design had not been your profession, your vocation, what do you see? What do the both of you see yourself doing?

Sharon Oiga [01:42]

It's funny you mentioned that. We were just— we had just watched with the kids Everything Everywhere All at Once. And we were at— we had watched with the kids and Sieren had brought up like, what would you think we'd be doing if we didn't the dude designer didn't meet, what divergence? So I'll let Sieren—

Guy Villa [01:59]

Yeah, I was saying, I don't know what I would be if I wasn't a designer. I really don't. Maybe I'd be in advertising because that's kind of what I thought it was before. I mean, I kind of was going towards advertising when I learned about graphic design.

Sharon Oiga [02:15]

I originally went to UIC to be a filmmaker. I wanted to be a director. And I think that I like talking about, like the burdens of— if I didn't— if UIC had this, which is still similar, I think, where you had to take one class in like different majors for foundation to sort of ensure that you really knew what you wanted to take. And I had to take a graphic design class.

And the person that I took with the graphic design class, his name was Scott Zukowski. And I think he graduated from Cranbrook and he ended up at UIC for a little while. And he was sort of like I think this is a nice way to say it. He was sort of like the odd one out because he wasn't really like Swiss postmodern or Bauhaus. So a lot of the principles that he taught in that class I still adhere to today.

And he's the one that convinced me to switch from filmmaking to graphic design. If I didn't take that class or I took it with someone else at a different time, I probably would have been like a struggling filmmaker or something.

Christian Solorzano [03:09]

So the both of you had creative tendencies, I imagine.

Guy Villa [03:14]

I actually started out in photography. I found out, while I was in school that wasn't going to be for me. I mean, I still finished in photography and got a degree in photography, but yeah, I did learn that it was going to be graphic design. I think mainly because graphic design has typography.

Christian Solorzano [03:31]

Was there ever any— like, I try to think about, for instance, me growing up and the things that I just absolutely could not imagine myself doing, and it was anything related to like math or like chemistry or like just anything science-related. Is there anything that the both of you just know that you just don't imagine yourselves doing? What was your least favorite subjects?

Guy Villa [03:54]

I don't know if it was subjects, but it was, yeah, maybe things that are too detailed. I would say with our relationship, Guy will handle the bills and things like I can't, like I can't deal with like these everyday things.

Sharon Oiga [04:09]

Yeah, it's, when we first started dating, I noticed like these little things where I was like, wait, you don't know, you don't, you're not doing, who's doing this?

Guy Villa [04:19]

Balancing the checkbook.

Sharon Oiga [04:20]

And then we moved in together, you would get calls from like a collection agency. I'm like, it's for you.

Guy Villa [04:25]

And then all I have the money, I just, all I would hear is like, oh, I forgot to pay it or I didn't pay it.

Sharon Oiga [04:31]

And I think they were shocked. That's probably not something to hear that like, oh, you just didn't pay it. And so after a while I was like, you know what, let me just do everything. Let me just handle all this stuff. But now things are a lot easier because you just have everything like, debit or automatically debit or deduct. But I remember back then it was, I was, I was I still am and sort of like the worrier.

So that's why I was like, you know what, let me, let me, I'm going to take care of like making sure there's these deadlines, things get paid and so, but I like to be organized, but that's just, it's too much.

Guy Villa [05:01]

Yeah. I can't deal with the minutia.

Sharon Oiga [05:03]

And I only do that because I, like I said, I kind of worry about it. If I could pay someone to do it, I would just be like, I don't want to know about this stuff. But then for us, it's, I can figure out like, but to get back to the thing, like for me, like anything with math, no way.

Like even when, if we're doing like right now I was, I had to hand off like these display posters for Columbia that we're doing to promote some student work. And I had to figure out how to divide something up because they gave me this wall dimension. But I was like, oh wait, the printer, the large format printer can't print everything seamlessly. And to make it easier for them to hang up, I have to figure out how to divide this in 2 or 3.

And I was kind of like, oh, so.

Christian Solorzano [05:44]

I want to know how the 2 of you met, because I love when I see partnerships that are both, partnerships in a profession, in a career, but then also partnerships in life. I interviewed Dan and Sophia of the Narrative, I think, yeah, last year, and I absolutely just love their dynamic. So I want to know how, yeah, just how the two of you met.

Guy Villa [06:07]

We met in school because since I was a double major and Guy was also taking a lot of photography. So you end up being in the same classes because of, it's a very— it's like one track if you're taking, 2 majors. So yeah, we ended up to be— we ended up being in a lot of classes together. And so it was nice because we were able to be, friends first.

And I think that's really important for a relationship because, you learn to respect each other and then trust each other. Before you become a couple. So I think, yeah, I think it was a nice way to meet.

Sharon Oiga [06:47]

Yeah, we were, because like Sieren was saying, at UIC, if you majored in graphic design, you would, and you were taking photography classes, you were sort of, you always had to take like the morning graphic design section course and then the afternoon photography course. So I think we met sophomore, in the middle of sophomore year maybe, or the second half of sophomore year.

And that's when we realized that we were, and we, and I started Realizing like, well, we're, we were always in these graphic design photography and then like the outline classes, like those seminar classes. So yeah.

Guy Villa [07:18]

We had really different ways of working because, I'm like work to the last possible minute, and he's more the worrywart. So he's always like done early. So he'd be done early and then he'd just be around for support or be like my intern or something like help me get it done.

Sharon Oiga [07:35]

It was really for the photography classes because, back then in the '90s, so painstaking to like develop stuff. And so I would make sure I would get there, like on a Friday when we didn't have class, I would develop all my stuff, print. So this way I'm like, okay, I'm done. I can just like figure out what I want to do. And then Sieren would stroll in and I'm like, oh my God. Or she would come in the morning of when stuff's due.

I'm like, oh my God. So I was always like, okay, come on, do this.

Guy Villa [07:59]

So he'd be more worried than me.

Christian Solorzano [08:03]

That's great. And what sort of shared interests did the both of you have outside of, your classes? What were you guys talking about?

Guy Villa [08:10]

I was saying like, yeah, he was really into photography too. And it was really weird because I felt like I was more into photography back then. And then now he's much more into photography than I am now. We kind of like switched places there. It was weird. Yeah, it was unexpected that would happen.

Sharon Oiga [08:28]

But I think in the beginning, we— there was a lot of curiosity about, or a lot of discussions about the way where we lived at and the way we were raised. Because Sieren grew up on the far north side, and I grew up on the south side. And so we were actually at that time really across the city. I was 5800 South, you were—

Guy Villa [08:47]

5200 North. So are you, are you from Chicago, Christian?

Christian Solorzano [08:51]

Yeah, I'm from, I'm from Chicago. I'm also from the South Side.

Guy Villa [08:53]

Okay.

Sharon Oiga [08:54]

So we, so we would meet in the Loop. So this way we wouldn't have to go all the way. And then, and of course, North Siders had this perception that the South Side, all the South Side was like dangerous. You're gonna get shot, you're gonna get killed. And back then, for me, the North Side was like, oh, you don't want to go to North Side.

Guy Villa [09:10]

Weird, and they're snobs. So there was a real like Romeo-Juliet thing there. And UIC was like neutral ground. And I mean, it was, it was real. He was a closet Cubs fan. He couldn't tell people on the South Side that he was a Cubs fan or he would get beat up. And—

Sharon Oiga [09:32]

Yeah, because my brothers and I would secretly go to Cubs games and not tell anyone. And we would go to Sox games with other friends, but we, my brother and I, would never tell anyone that we were going to Cubs games. And, thankfully there was no sort of like Instagram or Twitter where someone would take a picture and they would like, hey, someone just posted this thing. What were you doing there? So it was sort of like a free-for-all.

So, but we, there was a lot of learning about each other's parts of the city.

Guy Villa [10:00]

And when he moved in with me on the North Side, I mean, his mother and his friends, they were really, pissed off.

Sharon Oiga [10:09]

Everyone, I thought I was gonna lose it. Everyone was just I can't believe you're gonna betray us. And, it was, it was a real big deal for my friends and family. You would, you would have thought I was moving to like Australia. It was like, it was, it was so traumatic.

Guy Villa [10:22]

I was like the Yoko Ono of the—

Christian Solorzano [10:27]

And then how did the both of you end up in education teaching?

Guy Villa [10:31]

That was a fluke.

Sharon Oiga [10:32]

It was by accident.

Guy Villa [10:33]

It's definitely, I think that happens to a lot of, a lot of graphic designers. Yeah, I never thought I would be a teacher because my sister was a teacher. And I always thought that's her profession. That's not my profession.

Yeah, I always— yeah, I never thought I would, I would be a teacher. It was just that when I came back from graduate school, my former boss, Marcia Lawson, who's been the director for a long time at the University of Illinois, Chicago, She, she— there was an opening and she invited me to be an adjunct. So I thought I would just try it out. And I told myself— but then in the next semester, they kept inviting me.

And I told myself that the minute I stopped liking it, or I didn't— if I didn't like it, I'll try it. If I didn't like it, and the minute I stopped liking it, I wouldn't do it anymore. But here I am.

Christian Solorzano [11:25]

And you still like it?

Sharon Oiga [11:26]

Yeah. I think for me, I had a— we had a mutual friend that we went to UIC with, who was working at Marwen. He couldn't— he was teaching this one-off graphic design class, and I can't remember why, but he couldn't do it that during that semester that they had, or that quarter. And he asked me if I wanted to do it. I'm like, no. And he walked me through it. He's like, you'll be fine. And so I did it.

And once I started doing it, I started to realize it's like, because for me with Marwen, I connected to the students who I could see that were in a similar— who came from a similar environmental situation that I was in. And because Maroon gives, free art classes to underserved or inner-city kids, that's what the way was back then. And so I could sort of really connect with a lot of those students.

And then I did that for a while, and then I think someone— I think I just applied to Columbia to teach. I think I applied to Columbia and Harrington to teach. And I had thought, well, my only concern was like teaching, what would be like college-age students? Because I thought, well, what could I have to offer? Because, to teach like a 10, 11, 13-year-old certain things about graphic design, I'm like, that, that's fine. But so I applied and it was sort of the same thing.

I'm like, well, I'll apply and if I don't like it, I can just— because at the time we were both working at studio. So I was like, well, I can just go back to working, or not have to spend my time after work going to, teaching classes. And I ended up really liking it too.

Christian Solorzano [12:59]

And I know for— I know, so Guy, you're— you have a— you seem to have a large focus on photography and like image making. Is that a correct assumption?

Sharon Oiga [13:09]

Yeah, a lot. Again, a lot of that came from that former professor Scott Zukowski, was like the image making process, which I still do. We had a gallery last year at Tiger Strikes Asteroid, which was really about image-making and photography work that I used that I would dissect to make these collages. So we would work on these things sort of together, like I would leave stuff on the table and try to have Sieren like put something on, and then I would put something on after it.

And so, and I always have a camera with me. So, but Sieren hates— Sieren doesn't like when, especially now that we have kids, that when we go on vacation together, and we come back and she's like, oh, let me see the pictures. And there's no pictures of us or the kids. It's of weird, things that I find. And every time we go on vacation, Sieren always makes a point like, can you at least take a picture of the kids in front of this thing?

And I'm like, oh, okay.

Guy Villa [13:59]

If I, if I ever say, can you take a picture of us? He'd say, why? What's the point?

Sharon Oiga [14:04]

It's not really— none of my— none of the photos that I take have people in it. So it's, to me, I always find it weird to like have pictures in it, some people in the pictures. And so I'm always like, okay. And so I've gotten used to the fact of like taking pictures of the kids, sleeping or eating or something. So I don't have to like direct them because I'm not really good at like trying to direct people.

I think the thing is with photography is that normally I'm very outgoing, but when it comes to doing like photography, like if someone sees me, like if I'm trying to shoot a wall or poster or something, someone sees me, I will totally sort of like regress. I don't want anyone like watching me. Yeah, it's really weird. It's like I, and that's why I think that's why I don't really take pictures of people because then they know that I'm taking pictures of them.

Christian Solorzano [14:51]

Yeah. And yeah, I'm always really, I watch some YouTube videos of like street photographers that do such a good job at like just putting the camera in front of like a complete stranger. I'm like, I could never do that because I just feel, I don't know, like for me, I feel very awkward.

Sharon Oiga [15:06]

And I never have mine out either. I always have it in the bag and I'm always constantly taking it in and out. And the times that I've been, confronted by someone, what do you like if I see a sign or some type on a store and I'll take pictures. Someone will, a couple of times someone ran out. I was like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm just taking pictures. Why? Why?

And I would, and then I found this awkward conversation trying to explain to them why I'm taking pictures of the typography. And then they're, then all of a sudden they forget what they were mad about. They're like, well, why are you so interested in this? So that's sort of like letters. Yeah. It's sort of my out because they're like, oh, you're just, like a lot of times I think people just feel like, oh, you're— that's— you're just weird taking these pictures.

Okay, you're not, you're not, threatening. So—

Christian Solorzano [15:43]

And are there any, is there, specific themes or subject matter that you like to explore through your photography? What draws your eye? Or maybe a better question is there, a location or, specific spaces that you love to shoot?

Guy Villa [15:57]

I think there's, elements of, decay, I would say.

Sharon Oiga [16:03]

Yeah, like I mentioned, in, decay or overlooked things.

Guy Villa [16:07]

Or just, unexpected compositions, I would say. Painted, like if there was graffiti that was painted over, but it made a nice composition or something.

Sharon Oiga [16:18]

Yeah, the gallery we had at Tark Streit's Asteroid last year, a lot of that had to do with— I have, I mean, hundreds of photos of torn posters that have been like layered. I mean, they're all over the city that Someone puts it rains, and someone puts another one and starts peeling, and you get these unexpected compositions that are better than what was originally put up there.

It's almost like I equate it to almost like the accidental make-readies that people make when they're silk screening test prints, and I always find those more interesting than the, than the actual thing that they were doing. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [16:54]

Yeah, I love that.

Sharon Oiga [16:55]

Or like a lot of the other, and then like straightforward photography is like a lot of weird compositions that I, again, I, whenever I am out taking pictures, I always find myself in these situations where people are like, what are you taking a picture of?

Guy Villa [17:12]

Yeah.

Sharon Oiga [17:12]

This is not like a straightforward thing. It's always like an odd, or I get, try to get a weird angle and people are always like, what are you doing? And so I believe if I didn't have the camera, people probably would have thought I'm like breaking into something or trying to scout like, eventual break-in or something. That's funny.

Christian Solorzano [17:28]

And then for you, Sieren, your focus, I gather, is on typography. You seem, from me looking through your work, you seem to be very typography-focused. So what is it about typography that sort of continues to draw your eye?

Guy Villa [17:45]

That's a good question. I think because it's language-based. Yeah, I think it's that added element of, meaning. And I love that typography can be both 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional, and it could be put to motion. I think there's just so much possibility with typography that I think that was what was missing when I was— when I started out as a photographer. Yeah, for me it has so much, so many possibilities.

Christian Solorzano [18:13]

I remember when I was a kid seeing like the girls, they would do bubble letters, and I always thought it was so cool because like they would do them so awesome. But I didn't— I mean, that is, that is a form of typography, and I would say that it was probably For me, like one of the introductions.

Was there anything for you that, like a, for maybe before you even knew that typography was a term going back, was there any type that sort of got cemented into your brain?

Guy Villa [18:36]

I think it, when working, and I really enjoyed kind of like drawing or coming up with ideas for logotypes, things like that. And you know how you could modify or draw letterforms, how you can kind of explore legibility. So I think it really started out there, but then also in graduate school is when I started to explore with materials, with materials for making type, and then also, and also like motion.

Christian Solorzano [19:06]

And given that the both of you are from Chicago and continue to call the city your home, what is it about Chicago that keeps you here?

Sharon Oiga [19:15]

It's a good question because I feel like As maybe not so much like as I've gotten older, I'm kind of like, oh, I don't know how many more of these winters I can take. But I can't, I don't want to be one of those people that it's like you move to some warm climate. It's like, yeah, I just, I can't do it. And so I think what keeps us here is like, friends, like some of the, like the cultural institutions.

And when the weather is good in Chicago or, it's like, it's great to sort of like be outside. And so, but I like, we used to travel a lot before we had kids and everyone's probably like, oh, I think, we could move here and live here.

And then after we would be there for a week or two, we were always like, no, like you can't, you couldn't like either because of the cost of living or, just like the, if you take like LA, the way it's like laid out, it's like you always had to have a car. And I'm always trying not to drive as much. And so I was just there's no way, we could live in a place like that.

So I think it's just, friends, family and like the cultural institutions and what, the, also like the, just the different neighborhoods and, that we have.

Guy Villa [20:42]

Yeah. Well, first of all, we're really city people. We have to, live in a major city. And I just can't think of a city that would be better. We really like, because my sister lived in Los Angeles for like 10 years and we visited her there a lot. And I, and we really liked San Francisco as well. But I think there's a lot of wildfires there. Like he said, the transportation is not as good. Yeah, I just can't find a city I like better.

I mean, New York was fun to visit a lot too. We have a best friend there. But I, yeah, I think there's too many, way too many people there. I can't wait in line for everything. I can't live in a box. So yeah, so Chicago. Still fits us.

Christian Solorzano [21:37]

Yeah. And I feel like, from my experience, Chicago, I think it's very community centered. And every time I go to other places, like nothing feels like Chicago's. I don't know, something about Chicago feels like it's, I mean, maybe just because I've been here for most of my life, but I just think it feels very cozy to me. That's the word that I would use. Like just very, yeah, just very community focused.

So while we're, while we're on that topic of community, the both of you seem to be pretty engaged, not just as practitioners of design, but the both of you are also educators. And from what I see, you're both also heavily engaged with various aspects of the Chicago design community. So perhaps for someone that, for the listener that maybe isn't familiar with all of the extracurricular things that the both of you do, what are some of those things?

Sharon Oiga [22:26]

Yeah, so we're right now, we're in the very beginning of chairing the SA100. So we're sort of tasked with finding the judges. And so we're in the midst of that. And we were trying to find like judges that we sort of admired or liked or we felt like we could sort of relate to. And so we're at the beginning of that.

Guy Villa [22:51]

And we used to run the SDA weekend that might come back.

Sharon Oiga [22:55]

Yeah. So they used to have this called the SDA Designer Weekend where Every— there was one weekend in January, sort of like in the middle of January, where we would go out to Itasca and we would have 20 to 25 designers spend an entire weekend there. So it— what was great about it was that it's in Itasca, so it's sort of really in the middle of nowhere. And so there's not like— you just can't walk out of the hotel and go to like a bar.

So for better or worse, everyone was sort of to be together for the whole weekend. So you have like dinner, breakfast, lunch.

Guy Villa [23:30]

There was bowling.

Sharon Oiga [23:31]

Yeah, there's bowling on premises. We would have bowling at the last day. And so that was a lot of fun. So we attended one years ago. And at that time, the president, Steve, had asked us, he was leaving. He's like, oh, do you want to, try to take it over or, run it? And this is going to sound really bad because it doesn't look this way. Sieren and I are really lazy people. But I know it doesn't seem that way.

So, and whenever someone asks, we're always like, okay, do we want to do this? What, how much time is it gonna take? And so, and I'm always of the mindset like, how hard can this be? And Sieren's like, it can take a lot of time.

Guy Villa [24:05]

Yeah, and then when we do it, he's quick to say yes. Wait.

Sharon Oiga [24:09]

And Sieren's always like, no, let's talk about it. I was like, yeah, let's do it. And so we did it for several years and then the pandemic happened and we haven't done it since then. And I don't know if we'll ever come back because it's a lot to ask someone. To spend like Friday night through pretty much Sunday afternoon, away. And so, but at the time that we were doing it, we, like Joseph would always be there. Jack was always there.

So it had a regular set of people. And what was really nice was the first time we attended, because a lot of these things can be—

Guy Villa [24:44]

Well, it was a mix of like the regular and then there was always a crop of new designers. It was a good dynamic.

Sharon Oiga [24:51]

Yeah. And a lot of conferences, especially like small conferences, like that can be very Exclusive, and so when we went the first time, Joseph was the Sieren and I were sitting like off from the bar or something talking, and Joseph came up to us and says, "Hey, don't let anyone intimidate you.

We're all really open," and we had we had just got there and just set some stuff down, and we're like, "Okay," and so he's the one that brought us, and so our first experience was really great because we were there and we had like I think at the dinner table on one side of us was Rick Valicenti. And then the other side of us was like, it was Joseph. And so it was like these, like design luminaries from Chicago.

And it was, when you were kind of like, I'm just gonna start asking them questions. And then—

Guy Villa [25:33]

They were very warm and welcoming.

Sharon Oiga [25:35]

Yeah. So Rick, I think, was, and Joseph were very patient, like me asking questions about specific things that they did, or, almost like nerding out sometimes. I was kind of like, remember when you did this thing? Would? And so and after that, we just fell in love with it and we just continued to do it until the pandemic happened.

Christian Solorzano [25:52]

And then, and then what about for you, Sieren?

Guy Villa [25:54]

Yeah, so right now I'm in the throes with SOTA, Society of Typographic Aficionados. And so, the big thing we do is we hold a TypeCon conference and that's coming up next month. So yeah, it's right now it's, we're doing a lot of, a lot of work to get it done. So that's really nice because it's international.

So we really get to No, you really get to meet a lot of different people from different places, and it's, yeah, it's been really, I think, great to be with that group.

Christian Solorzano [26:26]

And with the— so with— so for example, with TypeCon, and then also with something like the STA 100, they both celebrate and champion graphic design, typography. And I always, anytime I go back in time and I start looking through, for instance, some of the some of the archives and you see like the decades and like the years and all that, there seems to be— for me, the most exciting part is seeing like the visual language that was happening at a particular time.

So these things are almost like timestamps of the moments. And a question that I have for the both of you is— part one of the question is, from your specific point of views, how have you seen the evolution of graphic design Changed throughout, for instance, when you were both first involved to today? And is there something along the way that perhaps, I don't know, like just stuck with you? Or perhaps, just what are your overall sentiments around graphic design as it stands today?

Guy Villa [27:26]

That's okay. Definitely design is becoming much more interdisciplinary, less siloed. If, for instance, if you, if you think about identity and a branding campaign that involves, could involve product design, plus all the print materials, plus interaction, websites. Plus it could, you'd be— you might be thinking about the space in which it exists, and that that's experiential. So it's definitely becoming, less siloed. And I think education is going towards that, towards that direction as well.

Sharon Oiga [28:03]

I'd also say, it's sort of like democratized, I think, especially now that more and more people have access to the equipment and programs that, back when we were in college in the '90s, where it was a very specific thing where you had to spend, a lot of money to get access to like typefaces, programs.

And, now there's also this trend of, a lot of people rebelling against Adobe because they don't want to subscribe, and there's these other sort of like programs that are sort of equivalent to them that I see a lot of students in college using or trying to figure out how to use. When you think about Figma too, like that's become like a huge thing.

So I think it's a lot more accessible and more and I know people have been saying this for years, but it seems like when we were talking about like what, if you told someone, oh, I'm a designer, they would automatically assume you were a graphic designer. And I think now is the case where they sometimes they don't know, like Sieren was saying, like you could be product design, you could be motion, you could be animation.

And I think now, especially, at Columbia, we're trying to prepare students to not be sort of like a generalist designer, where that was the thing when we were in school. Like it was, like a lot of students go out in the world now with design degrees, but they're not necessarily doing specifically like print graphic design. We've had a lot of students who would end up going to Amazon.

And then one year we were in Seattle for TypeCon, and I met up with some former students, and they were working At Amazon, and I was dumbfounded. So what is it you do? Like what graphic design does Amazon have? You know because you're always seeing like the website. It's like and you know they were doing see UI UX. Oh yeah, they're doing UI UX. And at the time I was and this was years ago. I'm like, what is that?

And so they explained it to me, and I'm like, you know what? You should come to Columbia to talk about this because the way they explained it, I was like, oh okay, I see what. What this is now. And my idea was like, oh, you had to be, like a real hardcore computer programmer. And they're like, no, it's just, it's the basics of what we were taught in college in graphic design applies to UI/UX now.

And so I think now they're, like design means, could mean a lot more sort of branching off to when before it wasn't like that.

Christian Solorzano [30:43]

Well, yeah.

Guy Villa [30:44]

And but to Guy's earlier point of tools. Things were never free when we were younger. Nothing was free and everything seemed expensive. But now, my— our son's using Blender. It's really great. And, there was no online publishing when we were younger. And now, everyone can use that and it's really Affordable and easy.

Sharon Oiga [31:14]

Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [31:14]

Even just the idea of being able to, for instance, like on Figma, you could collaborate with someone in real time. To me, that's still, that still surprises me because I remember working on a file and then having to send it to someone else and then they work on it, then they rename it, then they send it back. And just like sometimes a file goes missing and you're like, which version is the latest one?

So being able to collaborate in real time, I think for me is make such a huge difference because I do see the designer having a bigger seat at the table. And I think design, I think businesses are starting to realize more and more the value of design and the way that it could, even with just the pandemic, how many companies had to optimize their brands and their online experiences because everyone was doing things from home now.

So that's exciting, but I do see I do, I do get excited about seeing more and more conversations around what the role and the responsibilities of a designer are, because at least when I was in school, for me, I thought that design was just about making things look nice and about sort of doing, being able to be a generalist. And like you have on your portfolio, like packaging, and you have like a poster design, you have like all these things.

And then for me, going into my first job or going into my second job as a product designer. And realizing that there's like so much strategy and like research that happens before you even, start using the computer. And the students that the both of you have, are there any questions that you see them like asking, or what sort of curiosity motivates them? Any thoughts on that? How are your students?

Guy Villa [32:57]

Well, when I, when they ask me like, well, what should they be doing? What else should they be doing besides going to class? I think it's really important for them to get out of their shell, to be able to speak about their work. And I, see, I'm not like— I wasn't like a naturally gregarious person. I also had to come out of my shell.

And I think, you can do specific Things like I say, take a speech class, take a drama class, take a voice class, take a, join the debate club or something where you get used to talking in front of people, because I think that's really gonna help. I mean, you can be a very talented designer, but if you can't express your ideas, it's gonna be hard to kind of move up? How do you talk to clients? How do you talk to teammates?

How do you talk to your boss? I think maybe that's something that held me back, I would say, earlier in my, as a student and in my career. It wasn't until I got comfortable talking in front of people that I think things really like moved for me.

Christian Solorzano [34:17]

Yeah, it's like what Joseph was saying last night at his talk with the AIGA about Don't go out to lunch with other designers because all they will talk about is design. And I think that's great. We're doing that right now. But I think also just being able to be invested or immersed in other disciplines and other fields.

I remember many years ago, Debbie Millman was doing this thing on Twitter where she said the first 10 people that respond to this tweet will have like a 20-minute call with me. And I was one of those people. And I, and I was asking her all these questions about design. And the conclusion was she encouraged me to read various like news publications. And in my mind, I'm like, why do I need to like read the news to be a designer? I was so confused.

And it wasn't until recently that I'm, that I just recognized the benefit of just being in tune with, yeah, with the world.

Sharon Oiga [35:19]

Yeah, I think that especially coming out of pandemic, to get back to what Sieren was saying, like there's a lot of students didn't know how to sort of react once they came back into like public spheres or in classrooms. And I could see that they were very like gun-shy about showing stuff because they were so used to, like being on their own. For, days on end.

Yeah, it was, it was a big thing where, during, it was almost like having to reteach, some of the students I had at the very beginning. And then when they came back, it was already like 2 years later. And I remember thinking, you were never— you weren't like this when I first met you. And so it was always a thing of, for me, trying to figure out a way of, having— how can I have the student talk?

And then I realized, well, in class there was a portion where I would, I would purposely not talk about design. I would say, hey, I just saw this movie, and, or I just read this article, and then to try to get the students to, open up and say, okay, what's a pathway of, how does— how can this book that has no relation to design or art, prompt you to sort of, look into something else?

And I think that really helped, because then— because, I mean, for me, for teaching too, I have a lot of students, a lot of projects are really based on what's the student's interests? And so I feel like that really helped, because I'm like, okay, here's this project, here's the parameters. But what are you interested in this way? Because you're gonna be working on this for the next 5, 6 weeks.

And I think for me that really helped in my teaching career, because this way the students sort of have a buy-in what they want to do, instead of me saying like, I want you to do this specific thing. And use this specific typeface. I'm like, okay, let's leave it a little open. So I think, I think it becomes really hard, especially coming from the pandemic where students now have to like sort of relearn how to like be with other people again.

Guy Villa [37:11]

I had this conversation once with a studio owner and, it was a small studio. So when the phone rang, that's when the phone used to ring. People would have to answer the phone. And he told me that like nobody wanted to answer, all the young people didn't want to answer the phone. They were and then even when they did, they were like super awkward. They weren't used to just like talking to people live.

Christian Solorzano [37:31]

And I have like this other question for the both of you. So given that the both of you are educators, what do you think if you could teach any class? Let's say it's even like a made-up class.

Guy Villa [37:43]

I don't dream about that because I already teach the classes I love teaching, because I've been in it long enough that I get to teach the classes I want to teach, and I love the classes I teach. Yeah, so I haven't really thought about what it could be because I, it's already that. And so I teach a lot of thesis classes, so undergraduate thesis and thesis development for graduate students, and then also like advanced typography, experimental typography. I love that stuff. So I'm already doing it.

Sharon Oiga [38:20]

Yeah, I think the same thing for me. I, I've been at Columbia for a while now, and whenever— to get back to what you're saying— whenever, if I want to do something specific now, we'll have like a special topics class, and then I could just, create something that like I sort of want to do, and that's sort of what I'm doing. So there hasn't been anything where I'm like, oh, I wish I could do this.

And I think for me, the only limitation would be would sort of be like technology. For me, I, I'm the kind of person that when I teach, I don't— like, I have to feel like I'm sort of like at the level of the students technology-wise. So if anything, it would have to be probably like a technology base, something more with advanced technology.

But at this point, I feel like sort of getting back to what Sieren was saying, I feel like I'm doing the classes that I want to do or that I'm envisioning doing right now.

Guy Villa [39:12]

I will say that in my undergraduate senior thesis class, I think what's special about it at UIC is I've been co-teaching it with a writing, a design writing instructor, and I think that makes all the difference. I don't think other schools or many other schools do that, have 2 instructors, because I think writing is so important to thesis development and thesis making.

Sharon Oiga [39:33]

I think most programs or colleges, they'll have 2 designers or 2 parallels on like a design, like a graphic designer and like a product designer or graphic designer and a UX designer. And at UIC, that— I think a lot of schools don't do that, which I actually admire about UIC with the graduate and the undergraduate thesis, that there's a writer. Because I think, getting back to what we're talking about, everyone should learn how to write or speak about their projects.

And having someone who is coming from a different angle really helps that direction.

Christian Solorzano [40:07]

I think the writing aspect, or even speaking about your work, is very tied in with like storytelling. And I think as designers, that's a big part of what we do is we tell stories. And the other question that I wanted to talk about is because you were talking a little bit about technology, Guy, but have you guys had a chance to play with AI, artificial intelligence? What do you think?

Guy Villa [40:33]

Wait, before we move on to that, I just, I did want to give a shout out, give a shout out to my Co-teacher with writing, Megan Farrell. So she's— and I think writing is really important, but also just, she's just amazing. Well, that has really been fulfilling part in my career.

Sharon Oiga [40:52]

We touched a little bit on it for the exhibition we did for Art in the Mart at the end of last year. And Sieren had 2 colleagues from UIC that came in that we partnered with Daria and she, yeah, she works at UIC. And so she was really interested in just the AI capabilities. So there's like a small sliver of it in the, in the 7-minute animation that we did.

But I don't know, I don't, I don't, maybe this is just me and maybe it's, and people might think I'm gonna be ignorant, but I don't see what the big deal is. I'm kind of like, I've, and I've seen Some of the results, especially when it comes to art or graphic design. And I'm always like, well, this looks like some— like, it looks like it was manufactured. And especially now that we have— we have a 15-year-old and 11-year-old, and, they're all into like these things.

And for me, and I think Sieren can attest, what teaching does is that it always keeps you up to date on like technology trends. And having kids now and having, a teenager and one that's gonna become a teenager, they're always saying, look at this, look at this, or like, look what I'm doing here. And I'm like, what is this? Like we're sharing with the Blender stuff, and we'll spend hours on something. And we tend— we try to watch things together sometimes.

And we were recently watching the Marvel's Secret Invasion. And I let we watch it, and I don't know if you know about this. So the credits were created. The company who created the credits had an AI algorithm design the opening titles, and I play.

I let it go, and then I paused, and I told him like, "Oh, you know what an AI did this?" And my daughter says, "Oh yeah, I know it's been all over the internet about this and this." And I and I we were we had a conversation about it. Like looking at it, I'm like, "Yeah, you could tell that like." It, the thing about AI is that I feel, at least the things that I've seen, it doesn't look as refined.

That may be intentional, but I, with both me and Sieren growing up in the '80s with like Terminator movies and, like you're always like, I don't know, this isn't a good thing, you know what I mean? And so right now when I see this, I'm using things like, oh, that's Doesn't look that good creatively. But then I'm always like, well, when you, when I read more and more articles about like, oh, this AI became sentient and said, I don't like humans, I'm all in.

We're always talking to the kids. I'm like, oh my God, this is like the Terminator, like we're not that far from. So I mean, to get back to like, we haven't, I haven't really, or we haven't really done much in it other than having someone on the periphery do something for us to show.

Guy Villa [43:42]

Yeah, I'm interested in it and I'm Already thinking about the next class I teach, how I can incorporate it. I think right now it's exciting because we don't know yet what we can do with it. And so possibilities are really open right now. But yeah, I mean, I'm definitely thinking about adding a project or something that uses AI.

Sharon Oiga [44:05]

For me, getting back to the writing thing, like the ChatGPT thing is the thing that I have already Started with some students. I last semester I taught a portfolio class, and it's getting back to like writing and speaking. I would tell students like, write a bio. You know what? What about this project that you like? And it was really hard to get students to write something. And so I was like, just write a couple sentences.

And then with ChatGPT, I'm like, oh, what if you plug this in and expand on it? And so a couple students did it, and they showed it to me, and I was like this. This is really good. And they're like, oh, it's because— but the thing that I realized with artificial intelligence that you— like, what I made the students do was like, okay, if you have to give it something first, and then whatever it comes back with, you revise that and then put it back in.

It's always— I feel like it will work out if there's always a give and take. You just can't— like, my fear is that students will just I'm just gonna have this thing Do it for me, right? I'm always like, no, you have to prompt it to do something. Then when the prompt comes back, re-prompt it again. And this way it becomes more a collaborative thing where it's your writing that's been sort of improved or expanded upon.

Don't just give it like, I need you to write a thing about this. And I think that's why a lot of educators are worried about when it comes to like term papers where students just might say like, I need a paper on, Egyptian culture, and then it just spits out this thing that's not accurate. So it's always like, I've been telling students, with the ChatGPT stuff, you're really the editor, right? So whatever it comes back with, you have to rewrite that and then reposition it again.

So I said, so that's the thing I'm excited about, is that including that in the classes as sort of like a writing exercise.

Christian Solorzano [45:49]

Yeah, because it is a tool and it is a thing to collaborate with.

Guy Villa [45:53]

I think written content has to be— by AI has to be like fact-checked for one thing. And then the other thing is it is, it's scary though, because I tried it out. I put college entrance essays. I read so many and it was scary spot on.

Christian Solorzano [46:11]

And is there, are there any things like, let's say outside of AI, but anything happening right now within design that really excites the both of you?

Sharon Oiga [46:20]

Getting back to what you were talking about, I think I— what I'm interested in or excited about is seeing a lot of designers not being like generalists anymore. So like you're saying, when you see a designer now, you don't know if it's product design, UI, traditional graphic design. I'm really amazed to see students leave a traditional graphic design program, but then they're not doing traditional graphic design.

So I guess it's almost like, we call it like, interdisciplinary design is, I think, what I, what I see is happening a lot more now, especially now at UIC with the— UIC has a new BA program, right, with the—

Guy Villa [46:56]

The BA in Design Studies.

Christian Solorzano [47:00]

What is that? What is that program about?

Guy Villa [47:02]

Yeah, it's relatively new, and it's design in general and design with research and not necessarily just graphic design or just industrial design. We have both we have teachers from both camps teaching those classes, and then we have teachers that are just in neither of those camps teaching the class. They're just like design historians or design researchers. And it's— I think it's gonna become popular, to, yeah, to not have to pick one discipline or the, or the other.

Christian Solorzano [47:40]

And then what about for you, Sieren?

Guy Villa [47:41]

Is there anything that's exciting that's keeping you excited, or yeah, like some of those tools that are becoming affordable, or yeah, that are affordable now or free. I want to tinker, like I think I do want to tinker with Blender and like a Silhouette cutter is now, everyone, you can have your own Silhouette cutter now. I mean, you can have your own 3D printer. Those things you could, you Couldn't own them in the past. And now, so yeah, I'm interested in tinkering with those things.

Christian Solorzano [48:17]

Well, we're almost at time, but one of the questions that I always like to end our conversations with is, perhaps for the listener that is new to design, maybe a student or someone changing careers, what sort of advice would you have for someone that is a little bit junior?

Sharon Oiga [48:35]

I have this routine advice that I give that Sometimes gets me in trouble where I, I've all like, if you're a freshman or changing careers, or you're a senior, I always tell students like, don't be afraid to make mistakes. Like there's this thing where, we'll— I'll give an assignment and students like, I did it wrong. I don't wanna show it. I'm like, I say, I don't know. And then, they show it. I'm like, this is actually really good. And they're like, really?

And I'm like, yeah, because you didn't, you didn't know, you didn't find this. Traditional way of entering into that point. This actually works out really well. And so I— students always laugh when I always start off the class saying like, I want to see your mistakes. I want to see something that you're not really confident about, because that could prompt you to go into another direction.

So I, I've always told anyone at any level or of graphic design experience, don't be afraid to make mistakes, because that's what's gonna, that you're gonna learn from those mistakes. And for us, or especially for me, I actually like we did a whole catalog on stuff that— project that didn't work out, and then we sort of recontextualize it by using these prompts to have like these accidental prompts that would reposition the project.

So I— there are a lot of times where, especially within our work, like we'll do stuff that is a springboard, or the foundation of it was something that, like a photograph or importing something into design that wasn't supposed to happen. And like those happy— like a lot of people say, those happy accidents. And I'm always like, oh, this actually looks really good. Let me try to do this. And that springsboard us into something, else.

Guy Villa [50:18]

It's so easy to see, to see images, to see design with social media and Instagram and everything. I don't, I don't know if that is helpful as a designer, because I think people end up then maybe mimicking or thinking that that's the way design's supposed to look, because that's what I see.

I think that ideas should not come from what you've been seeing, but ideas should come from something else, something you're really interested in, some kind of subject matter, something, maybe there's like a story, some literature, or there's, a poem, or there's— yeah, I mean, just any topic that you're interested in any kind of research. Those were— that's where ideas should come from and not from what you've been seeing, because then you're just— you might end up making more of what you're seeing.

Christian Solorzano [51:11]

There's a designer based out of New York. Her name's Talia Cotton, and I was speaking with her a while ago, and she was saying how She doesn't like design trends. And she said something really interesting about how following design trends or designing based off design trends is not design because you're not making choices that are coming from you. You're making choices that are coming from someone else. To me, there's some truth to that.

And I, and as I was preparing for this interview, I don't know if I looked, maybe I didn't look hard enough, but I noticed I couldn't find social media, like Instagram for the both of you.

Sharon Oiga [51:45]

Oh no, it's intentional. Like the only social media we're on is LinkedIn. I, so we, when we did an exhibition for Tiger Strikes Asteroid, the crew was like, oh, we want you to promote this on Instagram. I'm like, no. And they're like, why? I'm like, and they're like, do you even have one? I'm like, I have one. And I'm like, and I pull up my phone like, oh, I've had it since 2011. And they're like, and I'm like, I've never posted anything on it.

And they're like, what do you mean? You don't do anything on it? I'm like, the password to get in is the password that Instagram gave me when I first, I've never done it. And so they were really like, well, we think you should. And I was like, I don't know, and so we're both very—

Guy Villa [52:22]

Maybe we're becoming designosaurs.

Sharon Oiga [52:25]

Yeah, we're very cautious about like, and I only, we're, I'm, or I would say I'm only on LinkedIn because when it initially started, a friend from college said, oh, you should get on this. And once I filled out everything, I was like, oh wait, this is a professional like Facebook. And I was like, well, I already, I already engaged in it.

And, but I have to say that I really, I'm really glad that I did it because that's how I sort of keep in contact and engage with other people, and especially with students. And but it's very intentional. I have just maybe, I don't know, like a month ago, I finally like made public my Instagram account. And what's really funny is that I happened to tell Sieren, there's one person following. And my— then the kids were kind of like, only one person?

And, because they have their own things and, they're— I'm like, so I think it's— this is gonna sound really odd, but you might agree, but Sieren, but it's— I feel like that's like beyond us now where we're kind of like, well, we have our friends that are our friends, they don't need to know, like what we're like. Like our view of it is like, oh, I don't need anyone to know like what I'm eating and, where I'm at the moment.

And that sort of have rubbed off on our kids. So yeah, it's you, you'd be hard. LinkedIn is probably the only thing that you would find us on.

Guy Villa [53:51]

And I only joined LinkedIn because I felt pressured to, I'm like, oh, I have to join something. So I'll do LinkedIn.

Christian Solorzano [53:59]

Yeah. And I don't know if the two of, but Instagram just launched like a new app called Threads.

Sharon Oiga [54:06]

Oh, right. I saw that.

Christian Solorzano [54:07]

And it's like the equivalent of Twitter, but now it's linked to your Instagram account. So now there's 2 apps to keep up with if you're on Instagram. So yeah, I mean, I applaud the both of you for having that self, self-discipline to not, to not engage. Because yeah, it's a, for me, it's a huge time suck. And I—

Guy Villa [54:27]

Like you were saying earlier, it's hard enough to return emails and then to keep up with Right.

Sharon Oiga [54:35]

IG. And now I feel like with Instagram, I'm like, oh, what if I don't post something for a couple weeks? What, is someone gonna be like, what's wrong? What's going on? Or if I feel like, what's wrong with me if I don't post something? And so I really just use Instagram as like a place where I can put my photos on.

And then my ultimate goal was like, oh, there's this place called— I can't remember, it used to be just named something else, but now it's not— where you can print out your Instagram feed on like on a poster. And that was my real intention. It was not to let anyone else see anything, but I'm like, well, I guess I have to do this if eventually I want to have this poster of all my squares.

Christian Solorzano [55:09]

So awesome. So what do the both of you do when you're waiting in line or like stuck in traffic?

Sharon Oiga [55:16]

It's— I would, I would, I would have to say, I'm gonna call Sieren on this. Sieren's on her phone a lot more just because Sieren's gonna—

Guy Villa [55:25]

I like playing chess on my phone.

Sharon Oiga [55:27]

Yeah, Sieren likes playing it. I call it baby games. Sieren plays a lot of games on her phone since she was a kid. And I'm sometimes like you're saying, when we're waiting something, I'm the only one that's not on my phone. And so then I sometimes feel pressure like, well, let me check my email, or let me, who texted me something. And so I, it's odd. I like, I just, I will just stare, look around at stuff.

And I think that's why having a camera, I'm always like, oh, look at that thing. Like when I'm driving, for me, the distracting thing is not the phone. For me, the distracting is like if I'm stopped somewhere, I'm constantly like looking. For a picture, and I'm always like, oh, look at that. And I used to, when we used to be in the car, I would find posters to take photos of, like the decayed posters.

And I would actually tear some of them down and take home, and then I would use for collages. Whenever I have the kids with me, the kids would freak out because the kids would think I was doing something illegal. And so they're always like, you can't do that. And I'm like, no, this is a public space. Technically, they're not supposed to be posting this.

And there was one time where I was—I had an X-Acto knife, like a utility knife—and I was really digging into the billboard, and I just heard this bloop, and I turned around, and it was a squad car, and they came out and "What are you doing?" And of course, I'm like, "I had this huge utility knife." Like, "What?". And so I'm like, "Oh no, I'm just taking this down." And it was sort of like the thing of photography. "Why are you taking this down?

Why are you turning?" I'm like, and I had to explain the whole thing. I'm like, "Oh, I'm a graphic designer. I do these collages." And once I said that, they're like, "Yeah, okay, whatever," and they just drove off. Because Once I saw that I wasn't gonna deface something. So for me, my time suck is like not my phone, but like looking around the environment, around the floor.

Like I'm constantly looking at the floors, like looking at like old smashed beer cans or Coke cans and like pieces of paper. And so I'll come home with like—

Guy Villa [57:14]

And I'm always like, take that out on the porch, put in a bucket or something. Don't bring it into the house.

Sharon Oiga [57:21]

Yes. I have like a little box where I have all my stuff that I found that Sieren thinks is too dirty to bring into the house. So or I'm in the basement cleaning cans that I want to get inspiration from for like typography stuff. And so like I have to clean it.

Guy Villa [57:35]

That brings me to that point of like inspiration. Try to find inspiration not by like following people, find inspiration from like other images, but from somewhere else, somewhere else inside you or something else you're interested in.

Christian Solorzano [57:50]

I love that. Well, thank you so much for this lovely conversation. It went by super quick. So we know that we can find you on Instagram. So there's that. If someone wants to get ahold of the both of you, what's the best way for people to reach the both of you?

Sharon Oiga [58:07]

Through our email at sharonandguy.com. Or like I said, we're both on LinkedIn. So that's another thing. And I'm on Instagram. So and this is gonna sound really funny or like old. I, someone asked me, one of my, one of my photographs is gonna be on the COVID of a magazine. And someone asked me, oh, can you give us your Instagram handle? And I was afraid to ask him, what is that?

I actually, instead of asking a friend who's always on Instagram, I was like, he's just gonna lay on me. So I had to Google, Instagram handle, and it was kind of like, oh, it's the and I was like, oh, okay. And so now I know people will be like, man, what's wrong with you? Because I was just so oblivious of it. I was like, Instagram handle? And I thought it was the, what I call the pound sign.

Guy Villa [58:53]

It used to be called the pound sign.

Sharon Oiga [58:55]

Yeah, it used to be called the pound sign. So, and someone, and they were like, no, it's the symbol. I'm like, oh, all right. So yeah, so I'm, it's like, what is mine? It's like @GuyVillaJr, so, but it's really LinkedIn is the, is the one where we're on and, sending stuff out.

Christian Solorzano [59:13]

Okay. So I'll put the, I'll put those links in the episode, in the notes for this episode. And before we go, anything that the both of you are working on that we should be on the lookout for? You mentioned STA 100, TypeCon, anything other, any other things that the both of you want to promote?

Sharon Oiga [59:31]

We're working on a publication for the Art in the Mart exhibition that wrapped up, and we're continuing to work with this client. They're Jay Myers and Mark Myers. They are film writers and directors, or writers and directors, and we did—

Guy Villa [59:50]

Get Out Productions.

Sharon Oiga [59:52]

Yeah, Get Out Productions, and we did film titles for them a year ago, and so they're coming out with a short film. And so we're doing—

Guy Villa [60:01]

Yeah, we're doing the typography for that as well.

Sharon Oiga [60:04]

Yeah, so we're doing sort of like figuring out what we want to do with that.

Guy Villa [60:08]

And I also just want to mention the other organizations that I'm with. Diversify by Design, or I think the email is DXD. Yeah, I think they're a really great organization as well as— yeah, I think I did mention that I'm on the Chicago Design Archive as well. Awesome.

Christian Solorzano [60:27]

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that.

Guy Villa [60:29]

Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting us.

Christian Solorzano [60:33]

Thank you so much for listening to this full episode and for supporting Underscore. If you want to learn more about the Chicago Graphic Design Club, you could follow us on Instagram, or you could visit our website at www.chicagographicdesign.club. We just announced that we are going to be publishing a print publication, and call for submissions are now open, and they will close mid-August. So if you're interested in being featured in our publication, now is your chance. Visit our website to learn more information about that.

Thanks again for listening, and thank you for your support.