Christian Solorzano [00:05]

Hello, you're listening to Underscore, a podcast by the Chicago Graphic Design Club dedicated to bringing you conversations with Chicago's creative leaders. On this podcast, we'll explore the craft, theory, and practice of graphic design, plus discuss bold ideas that push the boundaries of what's possible and ways in which we can create a more thoughtful and inclusive community. To learn more about us, visit our website at www.chicagographicdesign.club or find us on social media. Special thanks to the Chicago band Eighties Slang for our theme music.

John Hatherly [00:44]

Thank you.

Christian Solorzano [00:56]

Hey everyone, it's Christian and John.

John Hatherly [01:01]

Hey everyone, great to see everyone again.

Christian Solorzano [01:04]

And we're doing this episode unscripted. This is our special 3-year anniversary episode. The Chicago Graphic Design Club has been around for almost 3 years. Our anniversary is going to be May 6th, so we wanted to record a special episode where John and I talk about the last 3 years. And also last week, it was our— so we're recording this on April 30th. It's a Sunday, and this episode will be released tomorrow, May 1st. This past week, it was our 1-year anniversary of our podcast Underscore.

So a lot of milestones, I think, for us. And as we were prepping for this episode, we decided to just not prep for it at all. So this is, this is what you get.

John Hatherly [02:02]

Whether that was a creative theme or a creative constraint, maybe it's sometimes over the same things.

Christian Solorzano [02:10]

It's early and my voice is Allergies.

John Hatherly [02:17]

Good times. Gotta love spring.

Christian Solorzano [02:18]

So what's up, John? How's it going?

John Hatherly [02:22]

Oh, it's going great, man. So awesome that it's spring and that it is at least, I don't know, 40 degrees outside. Yeah. Life is good. I'm, I can't believe that it's been a year of podcasting.

Christian Solorzano [02:37]

Yeah, it went by so quick. It, sometimes I wonder if just Doing these things make time go by faster because there's always like an upcoming thing to like look forward to, and it— I feel like it shortens the span of time in my mind. Yesterday, Saturday, we recorded our 27th episode. So, and then plus our new series, Sundays with Kurita, we've done— we recorded about 4 of those. So it's been about, yeah, like 30 or so episodes, which is exciting.

John Hatherly [03:16]

It is. It's very interesting in ways that I think a lot of creative people are moving towards as a way of, yeah, just expanding what they're, what they're interested in. I see a lot of people applying a lot of their skills and overlapping them and creating These sort of richer, more immersive sort of experiences as opposed to a poster?

Christian Solorzano [03:39]

Yeah. And you just launched your podcast. Do you wanna talk a little bit about it?

John Hatherly [03:44]

Sure. It's called Infinite Search: Conversations of the Humankind. And it is me going in conversation with friends I've met along the way in a journey over a few decades of my life as a creative, as a person that has had a pretty interesting, I think, pathway into the creative industry, not going through design school or any of that world. I really love how I— hearing how other people make meaning in life. And so that was sort of this inspiration for this project.

It— the original inspiration came about actually in 2016, in the fall, the day after the presidential election. And I really just had this realization to myself that people weren't cooperating with each other, and we weren't listening, and we weren't hearing each other. And it's just been this thing that's been in the back of my head that we need to build in conversations with each other about how we make meaning together, as opposed to how we make meaning individually as individualist culture.

I think that some things around that I'm really curious about. Exploring. So yeah, Infinite Search, and I'm really excited to see where it goes.

Christian Solorzano [04:56]

And where could people find it?

John Hatherly [04:58]

It's on all the podcasts— Spotify, Amazon, Stitcher, Amazon Music, Google— all at once. So, and you can find it on Instagram at infinite.search.

Christian Solorzano [05:09]

And given that this is a graphic design podcast, could you talk— I feel like I'm interviewing you.

John Hatherly [05:14]

I'm defaulting to this is the Underscore Podcast. This is episode 29 of season 2.

Christian Solorzano [05:24]

I can't, I can't have normal conversations anymore with people.

John Hatherly [05:29]

Maybe that's a good thing though.

Christian Solorzano [05:30]

They just start interviewing them. Just kidding. No, but I wanted to ask a little bit about the branding behind the Infinite Search because I love the visuals and yeah, absolutely.

John Hatherly [05:48]

A lot of it is tied to a sort of brand language that is my own personal design consultancy brand language. If you'll see some of the typography, it's set in GT Sectra as some of the headline and primary headline communications. And so a lot of the typographic voice is centered around things that are going back further into my studio practice with Sondwerk and where I was starting things off in 2020, when I really started pushing into the artistic world.

And then on the graphic side, I have this idea that maybe we're all interconnected. We're all beings of light of some sort. Not to get too metaphysical in that space, but maybe there is some conversation around this idea that we're all just points of light. And so there's this graphic language where it's a gradient structure that is in constant movement.

And these— this palette that I constructed is a more soft pastel color palette, because I have this belief that the visual language that we put out into the world reflects and comes back to us. And so this softer idea about how we visually communicate things is really important to me.

And so whether it's the way I construct a color palette, or the way I think about iconography for a brand, I do think that some softer language is necessary to create space for alternate types of dialogue to happen that aren't so conflicting.

Christian Solorzano [07:09]

Yeah, I like that. Well, I'm very excited about it. I love the intro and yeah, I can't, I can't wait to listen. I actually, I don't listen to too many podcasts, but that's one I'm looking forward to listening to.

John Hatherly [07:25]

So I really, that it definitely means a lot to me. You also have a newsletter and it's been really impressive to see that not just with the Design Club, what you're doing, but also all the other projects and the sort of heart-centeredness that I think I see in the work that you do. It's very much about community and building not just yourself, but the people around you. Yeah, thank you.

Christian Solorzano [07:47]

I appreciate it. So let's talk about these last 3 years. You and I, we met on Instagram through a hashtag that was posted on the behalf of the Design Club. How'd you learn about us? What? Yeah, because you've been around since 2020. I remember you and I speaking in 2020. So you've witnessed like the evolution of everything that we've been doing. So what has it been like?

John Hatherly [08:19]

It's been really inspiring. It has been a lot of work. It's been really rewarding to find other people who are interested in building community. There's so many of us out there, and I was thinking about this a few days ago as I was prepping and thinking about this podcast, that how incredibly grateful I am to have had some random hashtag introduce us to each other.

Because I have seen the design community go from— and I think this is a cyclical thing that all organizations and industries and communities go through, where there's ups and downs. But I've been around for a little over a decade in the Chicago creative community, and, there's ups and downs, right?

And so I've gotten to witness some of that, and I feel like I've had a first-person seat, or I've gotten to witness Someone who is really trying to bring that journey back up, and so it's been really cool to see all the different programming come about. It's really difficult to get some of that stuff out, and it's really rewarding when it happens.

Yeah, go from a book club in during a pandemic when a lot of people are trauma when everybody is traumatized and just trying to cope into I think an organization that. Really seems to be flourishing, not just with online programming, but in-person stuff. And for me, it really culminates with a few weeks ago we had the first exhibition for the Design Club, Chicago's Tomorrow Today, which I suspect will become an annual event.

Christian Solorzano [10:03]

Yeah, which reminds me, I have to see if the WePaste, like the posters that we put up, are still there.

John Hatherly [10:12]

It reminds me, I need to go pick up my piece of art too.

Christian Solorzano [10:14]

Oh yeah, I gotta— I mean, I took mine home, but I'm picking up someone else's. And yeah, thanks for the reminder. But yeah, so, and then, so you're— so you've been involved with the club internally for a long time now. And Unfortunately, other team members couldn't make it today. But we also, I also, I mean, I think a big part of like our success or our impact is the team that we have.

And I think the people that we have on board are people that are, that are like committed and that are willing to like step up and do the things that they want to do. So I just want to give a shout out to Cheryl, who's been great. She's also been here since day one. My voice, very raspy. Getting emotional over this.

So Cheryl Patrick has been here for a very long time. You, and then most recently we have Galina, Hamid, and also Mariana. So I like our team, and I think when you have a nice team of people that sort of all have the same vision, or that share a vision but perhaps in a different way, different ways, I don't know, anything is possible. You could do so much.

So that's been For me, that's been one of the most like humbling experiences in my career, in my professional life, is being able to yeah just have a happy have a team that is committed to these things that are like outside of our jobs that pay us. Like we make the club doesn't make any money. Sometimes we'll make. A couple hundred bucks here and there, but it's all passion?

John Hatherly [12:32]

Yeah. I think about the things that people do in their lives, or at least for me, the things I do in my life and the labor that I put into things and the things that are quote unquote labors of love at the end of my life are gonna be the things that I'll remember. I care about.

Christian Solorzano [12:54]

Yeah. And that, and I think that's what we, that's what the word legacy, at least how I interpret legacy, like what is, what is a legacy? And how do you leave a legacy? Or how do you begin a legacy? And in Chicago, there's so many legacies and so much, so much to look back on with fondness. And the Bauhaus being an example of that, our podcast about Corita Kentz being an example of that.

And these are things that we're talking about today that are gone in the, maybe like the physical sense, but they continue to exist. I try to not be overly certain about anything. What is the next— what do the next 3 years look like? The next 6 years?

John Hatherly [13:53]

I don't know.

Christian Solorzano [13:54]

Those questions are what keep— those questions are the questions that I think can't be answered but are exciting.

John Hatherly [14:01]

When you think about— when you say legacy, it makes me think about an elder or an ancestor or those sorts of worlds. The fact that the people who come before us to, as creatives or as just human beings, are, we're still connected to them. The new Bauhaus. I make jokes about it being the new Bauhaus because I actually believe it. I think that we're here to create those things and to invent the future today.

Christian Solorzano [14:30]

So in the, so in the last 3 years or so, Have you noticed that our community has shifted the way that you approach your work or outlook on life?

John Hatherly [14:49]

So profoundly, very much. In 2020, we met in 2020. A lot of things happened in 2020. I quit a job in 2020. I started an artistic studio. So a lot of things happened in 2020, but since then, building a community that is creatively minded but also values-driven has had a huge difference in how I wake up every day. I quit a job, another job recently, and started my own thing because I look at my labors of love as being my primary jobs.

And that if I just have to continuously align my daily life with the things I'm truly invested in as a human being. And having examples like the Design Club has been inspiring. Even on a more like concrete example, recently there was a lecture with Civilization. It was an online lecture with the design firm Civilization. And just watching their process of how they went about going from zero to where they are now, and getting a little bit more into the nuts and bolts of how that happened.

A quote-unquote values-driven sort of design project or organization. That was another like light bulb in my head. Oh, okay, that's another light that I can hold forward and walk towards.

Christian Solorzano [16:21]

Yeah, and that's been a huge that's something that I always try to be very mindful of in regards to our programming. And it's always finding speakers and like books and things that are, that are grounded in something much bigger than, the work itself, I think when it comes to graphic design, we could sit here and talk about typography and talk about letter spacing and color theory and all that.

And I, and I love those conversations, and we have those conversations, but it's also like, how can we look at our practice within the context of something like bigger? So for instance, right now, the book club that— or the book that we're reading for book club is Ways of Being by James Brittle. And in the book, he's not talking about graphic design. He's like— I was reading it this morning, and he's talking about the intelligence of octopus, like an octopus, and how, theory of mind.

And he's talking about experiments that they did on, primates where they had them look at their reflection in the mirror and, to determine how intelligent— like, so we're thinking, so we're having these conversations about like these big ideas. But I think these big ideas are so interwoven with the work that we do.

And I think as a designer, as a graphic designer, when we have that, the, that context and that those various like modes of perception in my opinion, it just enriches the work that we're doing, because the work that we're doing is no longer this singular thing, but it's now something that is part of everything. And you could have 2 projects that almost look like— well, you could have 2 projects that look identical, but one project took into consideration the bigger picture, and the other one didn't.

And I think intuitively as like an audience, we, I like to believe that we'll resonate the most with the one that has more of that more of that depth. And I think that's, yeah, that's something I always think about. And that's, I don't know, like that civilization talk. I love the fact that Michael was talking about things outside of graphic design. And he was bringing that into his practice.

John Hatherly [18:58]

I keep coming back to the idea of having more of an industry contract with ourselves, similar to like the medical profession or law profession about ethics and standards.

Christian Solorzano [19:08]

Yeah. I mean, kind of like the First Things First manifesto. I think there's been like 3 versions of that, or maybe 2, but then again, it's like, Does that make a difference? I mean, I'm sure it does, but I don't know.

John Hatherly [19:28]

Do we just stop doing design altogether?

Christian Solorzano [19:29]

That's what— yeah, we just— this is, this is our announcement.

John Hatherly [19:33]

We're shutting down the Chicago Graphic Anti-Design Club. Just kidding.

Christian Solorzano [19:44]

The last episode. No, just kidding. But yeah, I like the idea of doing some accountability contract towards each other.

John Hatherly [19:55]

On my art side, people have been, everyone talks about NFTs and all that space. One of the things I find really interesting about it is the ability to write in your own sort of contract to the work that you make and how that retains value and in what way you consider value. In other ways that aren't just capital-based.

Christian Solorzano [20:16]

And you're talking about in terms of like NFT, like being able to write.

John Hatherly [20:21]

Yep. So even for example, getting away from the idea that you're gonna create this really trendy square image that's called an NFT, but I look at it more as I'm creating a digital contract for somebody. It's a non-fungible token, but at the essence of that is that we're agreeing in a certain way to exchange value that we've constructed in a certain way between each other.

And I love the idea that the ability to define that value is now decentralized, and it's no longer just determined on the market of capital. I find that really interesting. And so I can write in ways about nonviolent communication or ways of being around humans and plants. And, I think that there's a lot of opportunity in those sorts of ideas.

Christian Solorzano [21:15]

Yeah. I mean, I always, so I've, I have a friend and he's really into the NFT space and when, how he's described NFTs in a very similar way to you. And I always, what I struggle with understanding is what makes the NFT having the contract embedded within the NFT any different than me selling you a watch that has a serial number on it and then giving you a certification of authenticity as a PDF?

John Hatherly [21:51]

Yeah, they're very similar.

Christian Solorzano [21:54]

I don't know, to me it's like, why do— why does it need to be an NFT? Why can't it just be like a contract?

John Hatherly [22:00]

That's the defining feature for the NFT for me though, is that it's considered along this blockchain that's no longer yeah. Viable to the extent that if you do modify it breaks the whole thing down.

Christian Solorzano [22:11]

Yeah, I could see that. But I mean, yeah, I mean, I know the NFT space isn't doing really well right now, and I heard that it won't be for another few years until it sort of goes through another phase of bubbles out.

John Hatherly [22:28]

Yeah, I think, yeah, it reminds me of like the dot-com era in '99 to 2000 where everyone pitched up Pets.com and then it blew up. And then you still have organizations that run off of the internet.

Christian Solorzano [22:41]

So let's see what else. We got some responses. We posted a poll on Instagram and we asked people to tell us what their favorite moments of the last 3 years have been. Got a few responses. Someone said everything.

John Hatherly [23:04]

Love you.

Christian Solorzano [23:05]

Finding my tribute, my tribe, finding my tribe, friendships, confidence, and our Discord community.

John Hatherly [23:15]

Discord is huge. It has blown up. Thank you, Cheryl, for doing such an amazing job and everyone else that's doing awesome work. I know that Cheryl's had a huge hand in that and every time I jump into that thing, I'm Pleasantly overwhelmed by it.

Christian Solorzano [23:31]

It's— well, yeah, Cheryl's not here with us right now, but I do want to give her— yeah, extend that shout out because Cheryl has been— I remember that she was always very active in our Discord community, and I sent her a message. I'm like, hey, do you want to like make it official, like what you're already doing? And yeah, she's just so great at, great at like driving Engagements. I can't believe I said that.

John Hatherly [24:00]

You love that word, don't you?

Christian Solorzano [24:01]

Driving engagements. Yeah, she, so she's awesome. So Cheryl, if you're listening, thank you so much. You certainly play a huge role in our, yeah, in everything that we do. So thank you, Cheryl. But I like the, so they said finding my tribe, friendships, confidence, and discord. And I want to highlight confidence, because I think confidence is really important in the work that we do. And confidence is the thing that will take you— it'll take you places.

You could be as talented as you want, and with that confidence, you're able to broadcast your talents. So far. And on the other side of the spectrum, you could have no confidence and perhaps it's, like things just become a little bit more difficult in my opinion.

John Hatherly [25:02]

Or even if you feel like you have no talent, because sometimes I felt that way, if you just have the confidence, it'll take you places. Yeah.

Christian Solorzano [25:09]

Yeah. And sometimes like, yeah, exactly. Sometimes you see, you see people that maybe they're Their craft isn't quite there yet or whatever, but they're really confident. And that confidence, really like just does wonders for them.

John Hatherly [25:29]

Because they have the belief that they're gonna figure it out.

Christian Solorzano [25:32]

Yeah. So that's something that I think the last, the last 3 years I've, I'm getting better at is like the confidence piece of this. And I would say that's been one of my biggest takeaways of this club is having, yeah, just being a little bit more confident in myself. Doing these podcasts now feel like a little bit easier. I know the first couple of ones that we did, I don't like to listen to them.

Talking about the one with you, we did one together, things like episode 2. And I did episode 1 with Patrick. So yeah, so it's, it helps me in that way. The one, the one area of confidence that I do want to grow in is just the public speaking part when we do our live, like our in-person events. I think I need to, level up my game right there.

John Hatherly [26:38]

It's all fun and games until you Look up and there's 150 people staring at you.

Christian Solorzano [26:43]

I know. It's like, I want to be in my, I want to be here by myself with my microphone.

John Hatherly [26:47]

Wait, I walked through this a few times and it's really good. I sounded great when I said this earlier. What happened?

Christian Solorzano [26:55]

So, but yeah, confidence is important. And I always, I always talk about how my martial arts school, they say we're not in the business of martial arts. We're in the business of building confidence. And I love that. I think about that all the time. So I hope that for other people that are part of our community and that participate, that they also feel like they're, getting a boost of confidence. And yeah, and essentially it's just about finding your voice.

Another response was exposure to awesome Chicago designers. I love that because I certainly have been introduced to so many people that perhaps in the past I knew from a distance, but now I have their phone number and I feel like we're friends? And I think not only being, not only making friends with people that I've looked up to, but also learning about designers that I knew, but knowing more about them. And I think that's always been, that's always been really awesome.

So I don't know if you have anything to add to that.

John Hatherly [28:15]

I feel similarly. That's all just the sharing of story behind how and why people do things that you don't see a lot in standard media. Because things are moving so fast that it's hard to dig deep and take time and space for making those stories. Come to life.

Christian Solorzano [28:35]

Yeah. And I mean, what we're essentially doing is we're— all of our programming is, we're documenting it and we're building an archive of things. And it's pretty awesome.

John Hatherly [28:50]

I look forward to seeing a 40-year archive.

Christian Solorzano [28:54]

40-year. Yeah. That would be it'll be exciting. So, and then someone else said it's welcoming in a friendly environment, which allows designers to have a chance to explore Chicago's design scene and play a significant role in it.

John Hatherly [29:13]

That's one that's important to me, the last part, the ability to participate in seeing a community run itself. That's super special to me.

Christian Solorzano [29:27]

I wanna, I wanna give a shout out to Galina, who is part of the club, and she, the way that she got involved, and I hope, Galina, you don't mind me telling this story, but she reached out and she expressed interest in getting involved because she saw what we were doing and she wanted to help. Drive our mission and play a role in it. And at her last event, I mean, she's done a handful of things with the club.

And her, at her last event, like she played a significant role in the event, in a significant event that it was her first time doing. So I always love to see that is like that enthusiasm coming from people. And them extending themselves to help.

John Hatherly [30:20]

Confidence.

Christian Solorzano [30:21]

Yeah, confidence. Yeah. Anything else you want to add?

John Hatherly [30:25]

Yeah, I think the real moment that I am in love with from the Design Club this last year was just prepping for installing the wheat pasting. We had no clue how to do it. There was something very important about that fact to me, that we were coming together as a design club to learn about design so that we could go do design.

So that it could be a cyclical thing. And I was just having that kind of moment where I was thinking about practice and people's practices and that idea of being in constant play and preaching those sorts of ideas a lot, and then seeing a moment where it was in action within a community space, and just started tearing up in my own kitchen while I was making glue like Walter White with flour and water and salt, and fully clothed though. And it was a really special moment.

So.

Christian Solorzano [31:30]

Yeah, it's nice reflecting on it now because like when I was in it was, yeah, it was a lot of work. But looking back now, I think of you at your house and you're like emailing me files and I'm like downstairs printing them and then I'm like putting them up, tiling them up on my floor and then taking a photo, sending it to you, making edits and like just going back and forth.

Yeah, that was really fun. And I think those are the, those are the memories that I'm like the most fond of. Well I guess that that's it. I just wanna mention to— just wanna say to the listener that thank you all so much for supporting us and for sticking around. If you've been here since day one, thank you. And if you're new to the club, I look forward to connecting with you, and I look forward to seeing you at our events.

And like John was mentioning, join our Discord if you're not on Discord. Our Discord is pretty great and a nice opportunity to connect with each other outside of us doing events. So yes, it's like our hotline, our designer hotline. Someone will respond to you at any moment in the day.

John Hatherly [32:46]

I am determined to set up a design hotline, a hotline, get hot takes on design.

Christian Solorzano [32:51]

Well, and thank you, John, for hopping on this morning.

John Hatherly [32:56]

Oh yeah, it's been, it's been fun. It's been a great few minutes. It's been a great few years.

Christian Solorzano [33:02]

All right, so we'll talk soon. Thank you, everyone.